Confused about the Two-Weapon Fighting rules. Having both a weapon and natural weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confused about the Two-Weapon Fighting rules. Having both a weapon and natural weapon [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
celestialkin
12-02-07, 11:22 PM Hey guys,

I was just looking over my Half-Minotaur character, and I believe I have messed up on the feats for it's weapons (a Greataxe and it's Gore natural attack).

If you can, please help me sort this all out:

From p.312 of the MM and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons):
Natural Weapons

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.
Bite

The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.
Claw or Talon

The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.
Gore

The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.
Slap or Slam

The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.
Sting

The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.
Tentacle

The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

This is all I could find which covers having multiple natural weapons. However, it does not tell you what to do if you want to use both a manufactured hand-held weapon, and your natural attacks at the same time.

From p.160 of the PHB and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting):
Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways:

* If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
* The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

This covers what to do if using weapons in both your hands, with one of your hands being your off-hand. However, this does not tell me what to do if I have a natural attack, or what to do if I have weapons in both my hands (or one weapon in both hands) and I want to use my gore/horn natural weapon as a second (or third) attack.

Also, is my natural attack on a off-hand? Would such a weapon be classified as light?

Now, I am not sure which set of feats to use for this either. Do I use the Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) and Improved Multiattack chain of feats (MM p.304), or do I use the Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting) and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting set of feats (PHB p.160)?

Multiattack [General]
Prerequisite

Three or more natural attacks.
Benefit

The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty.
Normal

Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a -5 penalty.

Two-Weapon Fighting [General]

You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite

Dex 15.
Benefit

Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.
Normal

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.)
Special

A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor.

A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Thank you all in advance for any help!

edit:

Oh, I just reread the Half-Minotaurs entry in Dragon #313, and it says "when using a weapon, a half-minotaur often uses it's gore attack as secondary natural attack". So, does this mean I could use the Multiattack chain of feats? However, I do not have three or more natural weapons, so I don't think I meet the requirements.
RavenDrake
12-03-07, 01:32 AM A creature with natural weapons who chooses to strike with manufactured weapons can add thier natural weapon attacks to the same routine, assuming they use a full attack action, as normal.

A creature with natural weapons can take thier normal allotment of attacks for Bab (as modified for two weapon fighting, etc), then they can add any of thier available natural weapons to the end of the attack as secondary natural weapons. Penalties to attack taken, such as power attack or two-weapon fighting, apply to thier natural weapons, but so do bonuses. Natural weapons are considdered light weapons, but can still benefit from power attack, much like unarmed strikes. A limb which is being used otherwise in combat cannot be used to deliver it's natural weapon attack: For example, a Lizardfolk has two claw attacks and a bite attack. If it attacks with a sword in one hand, nothing in the other, then it can take it's full allotment of attacks with the sword, as well as a single claw attack(since one claw is on the limb making the sword attacks) and a bite attack, both as secondary natural weapons.

You must have three total natural weapons to choose Multi-attack(that means three total, not three types, a creature with 4x claw attacks could choose Multi-attack, if it wished, as could the aforementioned Lizardfolk with 2x claws and a bite). The minotaur has only a single natural weapon(gore), so it does not qualify.

Natural weapon attacks do impose any penalties to manufactured weapon attack routines, and never count as "offhand" weapons.

Most of this is clarified
celestialkin
12-03-07, 03:09 AM A creature with natural weapons who chooses to strike with manufactured weapons can add thier natural weapon attacks to the same routine, assuming they use a full attack action, as normal.

A creature with natural weapons can take thier normal allotment of attacks for Bab (as modified for two weapon fighting, etc), then they can add any of thier available natural weapons to the end of the attack as secondary natural weapons. Penalties to attack taken, such as power attack or two-weapon fighting, apply to thier natural weapons, but so do bonuses. Natural weapons are considdered light weapons, but can still benefit from power attack, much like unarmed strikes. A limb which is being used otherwise in combat cannot be used to deliver it's natural weapon attack: For example, a Lizardfolk has two claw attacks and a bite attack. If it attacks with a sword in one hand, nothing in the other, then it can take it's full allotment of attacks with the sword, as well as a single claw attack(since one claw is on the limb making the sword attacks) and a bite attack, both as secondary natural weapons.

You must have three total natural weapons to choose Multi-attack(that means three total, not three types, a creature with 4x claw attacks could choose Multi-attack, if it wished, as could the aforementioned Lizardfolk with 2x claws and a bite). The minotaur has only a single natural weapon(gore), so it does not qualify.

Natural weapon attacks do impose any penalties to manufactured weapon attack routines, and never count as "offhand" weapons.

Most of this is clarified

Thanks for trying to help, but this just confused me a lot more. So from what I understood, I take both the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties and the Secondary Natural Attack penalties as well (which I believe makes it a -15)? And since I can not use Mutiattack, and since it is not considered a half-hand (yet is considered light?) I can not use the Two-Weapon Fighting feats either?
strenoth
12-03-07, 03:43 AM let meboil it down differently:

you use your manufactured weapons 1st.

THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords)

so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty.

If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack)

Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack.
risner
12-03-07, 10:06 PM let meboil it down differently:

you use your manufactured weapons 1st.

THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords)

so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty.

If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack)

Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack.

Great summary
/agree
celestialkin
12-04-07, 12:31 AM let meboil it down differently:

you use your manufactured weapons 1st.

THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords)

so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty.

If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack)

Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack.

Thank you for clearing this up. It helped a lot. :)
pres_man
12-04-07, 01:13 AM I'm fairly sure your natural attacks do not take the -2 penalty from TWF.
strenoth
12-04-07, 01:40 AM they do, IF and ONLY IF you used the two weapon fighting routine with your manufactured weapons, because the penalty specifically applies to all attacks.
risner
12-04-07, 05:02 AM they do, IF and ONLY IF you used the two weapon fighting routine with your manufactured weapons, because the penalty specifically applies to all attacks.

/agree
celestialkin
12-04-07, 10:29 AM I have one more question, if you guys don't mind.

What if I added a tail club (Savage Species) to the routine with the prehensile tail feat (Savage Species)? Where would I be penalties wise?

Thanks again for all the help guys!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
celestialkin 12-02-07, 11:22 PM	Hey guys, I was just looking over my Half-Minotaur character, and I believe I have messed up on the feats for it's weapons (a Greataxe and it's Gore natural attack). If you can, please help me sort this all out: From p.312 of the MM and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons): Natural Weapons Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions. Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20. When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary. The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a -5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a -2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity. Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below. Bite The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage. Claw or Talon The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage. Gore The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage. Slap or Slam The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage. Sting The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage. Tentacle The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage. This is all I could find which covers having multiple natural weapons. However, it does not tell you what to do if you want to use both a manufactured hand-held weapon, and your natural attacks at the same time. From p.160 of the PHB and the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#twoWeaponFighting): Two-Weapon Fighting If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways: * If your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) * The Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6. Table: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors. This covers what to do if using weapons in both your hands, with one of your hands being your off-hand. However, this does not tell me what to do if I have a natural attack, or what to do if I have weapons in both my hands (or one weapon in both hands) and I want to use my gore/horn natural weapon as a second (or third) attack. Also, is my natural attack on a off-hand? Would such a weapon be classified as light? Now, I am not sure which set of feats to use for this either. Do I use the Multiattack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsterFeats.htm) and Improved Multiattack chain of feats (MM p.304), or do I use the Two-Weapon Fighting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#twoWeaponFighting) and Improved Two-Weapon Fighting set of feats (PHB p.160)? Multiattack [General] Prerequisite Three or more natural attacks. Benefit The creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take only a -2 penalty. Normal Without this feat, the creature’s secondary attacks with natural weapons take a -5 penalty. Two-Weapon Fighting [General] You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon. Prerequisite Dex 15. Benefit Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack. Normal If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. When fighting in this way you suffer a -6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a -10 penalty to the attack with your off hand. If your off-hand weapon is light the penalties are reduced by 2 each. (An unarmed strike is always considered light.) Special A 2nd-level ranger who has chosen the two-weapon combat style is treated as having Two-Weapon Fighting, even if he does not have the prerequisite for it, but only when he is wearing light or no armor. A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as one of his fighter bonus feats. Thank you all in advance for any help! edit: Oh, I just reread the Half-Minotaurs entry in Dragon #313, and it says "when using a weapon, a half-minotaur often uses it's gore attack as secondary natural attack". So, does this mean I could use the Multiattack chain of feats? However, I do not have three or more natural weapons, so I don't think I meet the requirements.
RavenDrake 12-03-07, 01:32 AM	A creature with natural weapons who chooses to strike with manufactured weapons can add thier natural weapon attacks to the same routine, assuming they use a full attack action, as normal. A creature with natural weapons can take thier normal allotment of attacks for Bab (as modified for two weapon fighting, etc), then they can add any of thier available natural weapons to the end of the attack as secondary natural weapons. Penalties to attack taken, such as power attack or two-weapon fighting, apply to thier natural weapons, but so do bonuses. Natural weapons are considdered light weapons, but can still benefit from power attack, much like unarmed strikes. A limb which is being used otherwise in combat cannot be used to deliver it's natural weapon attack: For example, a Lizardfolk has two claw attacks and a bite attack. If it attacks with a sword in one hand, nothing in the other, then it can take it's full allotment of attacks with the sword, as well as a single claw attack(since one claw is on the limb making the sword attacks) and a bite attack, both as secondary natural weapons. You must have three total natural weapons to choose Multi-attack(that means three total, not three types, a creature with 4x claw attacks could choose Multi-attack, if it wished, as could the aforementioned Lizardfolk with 2x claws and a bite). The minotaur has only a single natural weapon(gore), so it does not qualify. Natural weapon attacks do impose any penalties to manufactured weapon attack routines, and never count as "offhand" weapons. Most of this is clarified
celestialkin 12-03-07, 03:09 AM	A creature with natural weapons who chooses to strike with manufactured weapons can add thier natural weapon attacks to the same routine, assuming they use a full attack action, as normal. A creature with natural weapons can take thier normal allotment of attacks for Bab (as modified for two weapon fighting, etc), then they can add any of thier available natural weapons to the end of the attack as secondary natural weapons. Penalties to attack taken, such as power attack or two-weapon fighting, apply to thier natural weapons, but so do bonuses. Natural weapons are considdered light weapons, but can still benefit from power attack, much like unarmed strikes. A limb which is being used otherwise in combat cannot be used to deliver it's natural weapon attack: For example, a Lizardfolk has two claw attacks and a bite attack. If it attacks with a sword in one hand, nothing in the other, then it can take it's full allotment of attacks with the sword, as well as a single claw attack(since one claw is on the limb making the sword attacks) and a bite attack, both as secondary natural weapons. You must have three total natural weapons to choose Multi-attack(that means three total, not three types, a creature with 4x claw attacks could choose Multi-attack, if it wished, as could the aforementioned Lizardfolk with 2x claws and a bite). The minotaur has only a single natural weapon(gore), so it does not qualify. Natural weapon attacks do impose any penalties to manufactured weapon attack routines, and never count as "offhand" weapons. Most of this is clarified Thanks for trying to help, but this just confused me a lot more. So from what I understood, I take both the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties and the Secondary Natural Attack penalties as well (which I believe makes it a -15)? And since I can not use Mutiattack, and since it is not considered a half-hand (yet is considered light?) I can not use the Two-Weapon Fighting feats either?
strenoth 12-03-07, 03:43 AM	let meboil it down differently: you use your manufactured weapons 1st. THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords) so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty. If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack) Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack.
risner 12-03-07, 10:06 PM	let meboil it down differently: you use your manufactured weapons 1st. THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords) so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty. If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack) Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack. Great summary /agree
celestialkin 12-04-07, 12:31 AM	let meboil it down differently: you use your manufactured weapons 1st. THEN you do your natural weapons as secondary weapons. You can not use any natural weapons that were occupied during the weapon attacks (ie, like claws on hands used for swords) so if you have 1 sword, and a gore attack, you do your full alloted attacks with the sword, then use your horns, at a -5 penalty. If you are wielding 2 swords, THEN TWF comes into play. Your swords take your normal -2 penalty, and your gore attack is at -7 (the penalties stack) Multiattack and improved multiattack would reduce these penalties on the gore attack, but you need three natural weapons before you can take them. Which means you are stuck with your gore having a hefty penalty, but it's a free extra attack, and it does not penalize your weapon attack. Thank you for clearing this up. It helped a lot. :)
pres_man 12-04-07, 01:13 AM	I'm fairly sure your natural attacks do not take the -2 penalty from TWF.
strenoth 12-04-07, 01:40 AM	they do, IF and ONLY IF you used the two weapon fighting routine with your manufactured weapons, because the penalty specifically applies to all attacks.
risner 12-04-07, 05:02 AM	they do, IF and ONLY IF you used the two weapon fighting routine with your manufactured weapons, because the penalty specifically applies to all attacks. /agree
celestialkin 12-04-07, 10:29 AM	I have one more question, if you guys don't mind. What if I added a tail club (Savage Species) to the routine with the prehensile tail feat (Savage Species)? Where would I be penalties wise? Thanks again for all the help guys!