Confusion on attacking pinned targets [Archive] - Wizards Community

Confusion on attacking pinned targets [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Zwyil Chwineka
03-10-06, 05:38 AM So I checked the errata for the Player's Handbook, and even searched the latest FAQ thingies on grappling and pinning, but I haven't found my answer.

On page 151 there is a side note on attacking a pinned opponent that the defender's Dexterity is treated as 0 for the attack, giving an average of -5 AC and can be sneak attacked. On page 153 (just for reference) it says that only helpless defenders have their Dex treated as 0. And (finally) on page 157 it makes no mention on the treating Dex as 0 if you or your opponent are/is pinned, but does say that the pinned target is NOT helpless.

So... If I pin someone, can my rogue friend sneak attack him? Does he get no Dex bonus to his AC, or is his Dex treated as if it were 0?

Sorry if this is a stupid question. I just couldn't find the answer...
DocBeard
03-10-06, 07:43 AM I'm not sure about the dexterity-as-0 thing, but you always lose your dexterity bonus in a grapple (except against other people in the grapple). So yeah, if you pinned someone (or even were just grappling them), your rogue friend could indeed sneak attack.
Nom
03-10-06, 07:48 AM Yes, the rules don't synch up. My interpretation is that table 8-6 note 4 is in error, and that the entries should actually be note 1 for melee and notes 1,3 for missile, by the "text trumps table" principle.

One could argue that table 8-6 is adding extra notes, in the same way as it adds the note about ranged attacks striking an extra target, but this does tend to contrast poorly with explicit text on PH pg 157 ("not helpless") and the reference in note 4 to pg 153 (but not 157).
Zwyil Chwineka
03-10-06, 07:52 AM I figured the table was wrong, but I was hoping it wasn't... It'd make things a lot easier to STAB.
ShinAkuma2
03-10-06, 01:03 PM One could argue that table 8-6 is adding extra notes, in the same way as it adds the note about ranged attacks striking an extra target, but this does tend to contrast poorly with explicit text on PH pg 157 ("not helpless") and the reference in note 4 to pg 153 (but not 157).

You're "not helpless" when pinned because you can not be coup-de-graced.

Otherwise, there is no text contradicting the tables, so the tables stand.

A pinned defender has a 0 dexterity (-5 modifier instead of whatever they normally have).
Nom
03-10-06, 04:03 PM It's not so much the "not helpless" but that PH pg 157 both says "not helpless" and clearly mentions the other penalties but not having Dex 0. "Oh, yeah, we listed the lesser penalties but stuck the reference to having 0 Dex in an miscellaneous table" seems a bizarre way to write rules.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zwyil Chwineka 03-10-06, 05:38 AM	So I checked the errata for the Player's Handbook, and even searched the latest FAQ thingies on grappling and pinning, but I haven't found my answer. On page 151 there is a side note on attacking a pinned opponent that the defender's Dexterity is treated as 0 for the attack, giving an average of -5 AC and can be sneak attacked. On page 153 (just for reference) it says that only helpless defenders have their Dex treated as 0. And (finally) on page 157 it makes no mention on the treating Dex as 0 if you or your opponent are/is pinned, but does say that the pinned target is NOT helpless. So... If I pin someone, can my rogue friend sneak attack him? Does he get no Dex bonus to his AC, or is his Dex treated as if it were 0? Sorry if this is a stupid question. I just couldn't find the answer...
DocBeard 03-10-06, 07:43 AM	I'm not sure about the dexterity-as-0 thing, but you always lose your dexterity bonus in a grapple (except against other people in the grapple). So yeah, if you pinned someone (or even were just grappling them), your rogue friend could indeed sneak attack.
Nom 03-10-06, 07:48 AM	Yes, the rules don't synch up. My interpretation is that table 8-6 note 4 is in error, and that the entries should actually be note 1 for melee and notes 1,3 for missile, by the "text trumps table" principle. One could argue that table 8-6 is adding extra notes, in the same way as it adds the note about ranged attacks striking an extra target, but this does tend to contrast poorly with explicit text on PH pg 157 ("not helpless") and the reference in note 4 to pg 153 (but not 157).
Zwyil Chwineka 03-10-06, 07:52 AM	I figured the table was wrong, but I was hoping it wasn't... It'd make things a lot easier to STAB.
ShinAkuma2 03-10-06, 01:03 PM	One could argue that table 8-6 is adding extra notes, in the same way as it adds the note about ranged attacks striking an extra target, but this does tend to contrast poorly with explicit text on PH pg 157 ("not helpless") and the reference in note 4 to pg 153 (but not 157). You're "not helpless" when pinned because you can not be coup-de-graced. Otherwise, there is no text contradicting the tables, so the tables stand. A pinned defender has a 0 dexterity (-5 modifier instead of whatever they normally have).
Nom 03-10-06, 04:03 PM	It's not so much the "not helpless" but that PH pg 157 both says "not helpless" and clearly mentions the other penalties but not having Dex 0. "Oh, yeah, we listed the lesser penalties but stuck the reference to having 0 Dex in an miscellaneous table" seems a bizarre way to write rules.