Post/Author/DateTime	Post
PoptartLord 02-22-07, 08:43 PM	In my current game I asked my DM if I could get the nimbleness enchantment for my armor (mithril breastplate). He immediately says "no way, it's so overpowered." That response surprised me. He usually knows his stuff and I don't see how it's overpowered at all. It's out, I'm not going to argue it, but I would really like to see what the rest of you think. Am I really missing something obvious here? -PoptartLord
Crimson_Concerto 02-22-07, 08:51 PM	What book's it in?
tiluvias99 02-22-07, 09:02 PM	And, slightly more importantly, what does it do, and for how much of a cost?
PowerAddict 02-22-07, 09:46 PM	Is in Magic of Faerun +1 armor enhancement +2 max dex, -1 armor check
Drodain 02-22-07, 09:51 PM	That seems strong but not overpowered to the point of eliminating it completely. I'm not sure why he is so against it. I am not for long arguments with your DM but I might ask him why he thinks it is so powerful to ban it from his game. If nothing else to just answer your questions.
Crimson_Concerto 02-22-07, 09:52 PM	Is in Magic of Faerun +1 armor enhancement +2 max dex, -1 armor check . . . Is that seriously all? :confused: Because if that's all it does, your DM is crazy.
jaelis 02-22-07, 10:08 PM	It sounds reasonable to me. I could see how stacking it with mithral might make someone a bit antsy, but I think that's a problem with mithral, not nimbleness. A mithral nimble breastplate is +5 AC, +7 max dex, and is considered light armor. A +1 mithral chain shirt is +5 AC, +6 max dex, but costs 3000 gp less. So you're paying 3000 gp and you need a 24 dex to get an extra +1 to AC. That's probably not really balanced at high levels (where 3000 gp is chump change and 24 dex is middling), but then again, it's just a flat +1 AC. Hardly game breaking.
draconic_swine 02-22-07, 10:08 PM	Compared to a straight +1 armour, I'd have to say it's a bit on the powerful side. If you didn't get nimbleness, you'd get +1 AC, as well as +2 hardness and +10 hitpoints. With nimbleness, you get a possible +2 to AC, but lose the increase in hardness and hitpoints. If it was that, I'd say it's perfectly fair. However, it can be argued that the hardness and hitpoints aren't worth much as much for armour as it would be for a shield or weapon (since you can't sunder armour). Also, you do get a decrease in armour check penalty. So yeah, I think it's a bit powerful. Overpowered? Broken? Not really. Would I allow it? Probably.
Lotus Crane 02-23-07, 01:05 AM	DM's do tend to get unnerved by the prospect of a +1 mithral breastplate of nimbleness (or better) though. For I believe 8200 gp, you have a +6 armor bonus to AC, with a maximum Dexterity bonus of +7, an armor check penalty of 0, and no reduction in speed (due to being treated as light armor). In terms of cost efficiency, and future upgradability (that much MDB leaves plenty of room for future Dex items to grant their full benefits), you really can't beat that.
PoptartLord 02-23-07, 01:30 AM	Lotus pretty much nailed what I was going for. In order for my char to get the full +7 MDB I'd need to put a point into dex (from reaching 4th level) and buy a Gloves of Dex +6. Plus Dex isn't my main stat, so I won't even buy the gloves until high level anyway. "Future upgradability" is the real reason I wanted nimbleness in the first place. Once I eventually reach high level I want to make sure I'm wearing optimal armor. I suppose I could talk to my DM once more about it. I asked him before I told him what armor I was planning on using / buying (the armor I was sure he would allow; it was the enchantment I was worried about), so it might be worth a shot. Thanks for all the responses!
runestar 02-23-07, 02:03 AM	I see nothing wrong. You still need to pump your dex really high to be able to benefit from a higher max dex cap.:)
tarkin 02-23-07, 12:09 PM	I agree with runestar, the cost of the Nimbleness is hidden because you forget the cost to boost your Dex that high. The comparison is not a +1 Mithral Nimbelness to Mithral but instead is +1 Mithral Nimbelness to +2 Mithral. You gain +1 AC, but only if you have also paid for something to raise your Dex.
Kalarus 02-23-07, 03:54 PM	Except if you already have the dex to begin with and want to run around in full plate. Let's see... my fighter currently has dex 20, so I can get a +5 out of armor, theoretically. If I run around in mithral full plate, I get +8 armor bonus and a max dex of +3, for a total +11. If I make it +2, which equals the cost of a +1 nimbleness mithral full plate, I get +13 AC If I run around in mithral full plate +1 of nimbleness, I get a +9 armor bonus and a +5 max dex. I get +14 AC. In addition, I can upgrade the armor bonus 4 more points, as opposed to the 3 with the mithral full plate +2, and I have an even lower armor check penalty than before. More upgradability, lower armor check, 1 higher AC. I don't see a reaon not to take Nimbleness, and generally speaking, if there's no real reason not to take something, it tends to lean towards being overpowered. Admittedly my character has some very nice ability scores, most dwarven fighters won't walk around with base 18 dex... my DM doesn't mind powerful characters, means he can throw more at them without worrying about wiping the party immediately. Something he still manages about twice a year.
wonlee76 02-23-07, 04:11 PM	Here's a simple test to try to analyze why your DM thinks nimbleness is overpowered. Ask him if he would allow the twilight enhancement (+1 armor enhancement, -10% ASF). If he says "No way, its overpowered", then his opinion is most likely due to his concern on how well nimbleness stacks with the benefits of mithral armor. If he says "Sure, it doesn't sound so bad", then his opinion is most likely due to his opinion that Dexterity bonuses to AC are just that valueable (for whaetever reason). Personally I don't think its overpowered in general "standard" type of game (standard = 28-32 point buy), since decterity usually will not start off at 18s and to take full advantage of nimbleness will cost money in the form of temporary boosts to dexterity (potions of cat's grace) or the more expensive gloves of dexterity. In a higher point buy or just really lucky rolls, I guess it could be considered overpowered (for a +1 enhancement at least) where your dexterity can take immediate advantage of the boost in the Max Dexterity of the armor. At the very least, in a higher point buy game I would consider Nimbleness to be a "strong" +1 armor enhancement to have.
paladin2019 02-23-07, 05:56 PM	My house rule is that armor bonuses cost as much as weapon bonuses because all magic armors include the nimbleness modifiers by default. This also means that nimbleness as a separate enhancement is not allowed.
runestar 02-23-07, 09:56 PM	Except if you already have the dex to begin with and want to run around in full plate. And having a high dex usually comes at the expense of another stat, unless you happen to roll exceptionally well on all your stats. A fighter wearing nimble mithral fullplate would have good AC in your case. But it is not cheap either. And the opportunity cost would be a fighter who could have funneled those stats into his str or con instead. In the case of a fighter with base dex:14 wearing gloves of dex, that still represents an additional investment of 36000gp, which I can argue should be added to the cost of nimbleness to get the true total cost.:) You are expected to customize your eq to custom-fit your own character. I see no reason with it. You should be allowed something so long as you are willing to pay a fair price for it.:)
Empiro 02-23-07, 11:07 PM	This property is definitely overpowered. Claiming that it's balanced because you need high dex is not a good defense. After all, you wouldn't take it if you're a full plate wearing fighter with 12 dex. Essentially, this armor lets you for a +1 price increase your AC by 2. Furthermore, since it's dex based, it increases touch AC, which normal +'s don't, and this property is also likely to be taken by rogues who are going to have uncanny dodge. Also don't forget that the price of greater enhancements isn't linear, comparing +2 armor to +3 armor is a difference of 5000gp, and comparing +5 to +6 is 11,000gp. The fact that it does not increase hardness and HP almost never comes into play in practice -- enemies cannot sunder your armor. Furthermore, because it's a special property, it also allows you to bypass the standard +5 bonus rule. You could make +5 armors of nimbleness for +6 price that would give you a +7 over the base AC. Finally, This ability is very powerful because it stacks with Magic Vestment. In a game were heavy armor already is considered by many to be pretty bad, you don't need another property that makes them even worse comparatively. As a DM I would probably let the property in the game if it only increased the Dex bonus by 1.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 02-24-07, 01:29 AM	Except if you already have the dex to begin with and want to run around in full plate. Let's see... my fighter currently has dex 20, so I can get a +5 out of armor, theoretically. ... I can think of better things to have a 20 in. Like con, or str... I'm not even sure if you started with 18 dex and choose a race just for the boost, or spent level boosts, or paid for a 6 dex enhancing item. To point is your boosting what is normaly your 3rd ~ 4th most useful ability up as high as you can lowers your best abilities. So your already paying the nimbleness without even buying it in the first place.
Silverthumb128 02-24-07, 01:38 AM	Its pretty great on Platinum Mail(Vassal of Bahamut). Get a +8 AC, +6 MDB, no Armor Check Penalty, no speed reduction, etc.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-24-07, 01:54 AM	Ask him if he would allow the twilight enhancement (+1 armor enhancement, -10% ASF). If he says "No way, its overpowered", then his opinion is most likely due to his concern on how well nimbleness stacks with the benefits of mithral armor. Or it could be that Twilight is one of the most broken armor enhancements around.
runestar 02-24-07, 07:14 AM	Or it could be that Twilight is one of the most broken armor enhancements around. It has already been proven that it is not, since a magical twillight ghost touch mithril chainshirt is actually more expensive than bracers of armour providing an equivalent armour bonus...:)
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-24-07, 01:50 PM	It has already been proven that it is not, since a magical twillight ghost touch mithril chainshirt is actually more expensive than bracers of armour providing an equivalent armour bonus...:) Oh really? Let's test that. Bracers of Armor +5: 25,000 gp +1 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 10,100 gp Bracers of Armor +6: 36,000 gp +2 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 16,100 gp Bracers of Armor +7: 49,000 gp +3 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 26,100 gp Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000 gp +4 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 37,100 gp Bracers of Armor +9: 81,000 gp +5 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 50,100 gp Bracers of Armor +10: 100,000 gp +6 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 641,100 gp In short, it only becomes more expensive at the very top, and that's only because it has to go to epic. But wait, let's extend that further. Bracers of Armor +11: 1,210,000 gp +7 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 811,100 gp Bracers of Armor +12: 1,440,000 gp +8 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 1,001,100 gp Well, I'll be damned. Bracers of Armor are only cheaper at one point in time.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 02-24-07, 02:54 PM	Oh really? Let's test that. Bracers of Armor +5: 25,000 gp +1 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 10,100 gp Bracers of Armor +6: 36,000 gp +2 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 16,100 gp Greater Mage Armor (+6): 150gp per day. Bracers of Armor +7: 49,000 gp +3 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 26,100 gp Bracers of Armor +8: 64,000 gp +4 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 37,100 gp Bracers of Armor +9: 81,000 gp +5 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 50,100 gp Bracers of Armor +10: 100,000 gp +6 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 641,100 gp In short, it only becomes more expensive at the very top, and that's only because it has to go to epic. But wait, let's extend that further. Bracers of Armor +11: 1,210,000 gp +7 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 811,100 gp Bracers of Armor +12: 1,440,000 gp +8 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 1,001,100 gp Well, I'll be damned. Bracers of Armor are only cheaper at one point in time.red text is mine Sure, but since the shirt weighes 12.5lbs. and you want to have a bag of holding (15lbs. for type 1) your looking at 27.5lbs. right there. You need atleast 9 str for those two things, throw on a rod and buckler and you need 10~11 str. There went aging your spell caster... P.S. +5 Full-Plate has a ACP of -1, whats the big deal about classes that lower ACP?
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 05:04 PM	Oh really?Yes, really. Ghost Touch armour is a +3 bonus. Let's test that. Bracers of Armor +5: 25,000 gp +1 twilight ghost touch mithral chain shirt: 10,100 gp+1 bonus : +1 Twilight : +1 Ghost touch : +3. Total is a +5 bonus, or 25,000gp. Plus 1,100 for the Mithral Chain Shirt, 26,100gp. All your other calculations - every one - are equally flawed. The cost of the Mothral Chain Shirt is almost always greater than the cost of the Bracers, by the cost of the armour itself. @LostPasswords : ACP is not lowered by enhancement bonuses to AC.The ACP of magic full plate is -5 whether that is +1, +5 or +789.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 02-24-07, 05:25 PM	Yes, really. Ghost Touch armour is a +3 bonus. +1 bonus : +1 Twilight : +1 Ghost touch : +3. Ah, right. Haven't looked over the magic armor tables in awhile. Edit: +5 mithral twilight ghost touch chain shirt is still a better value, since Bracers of Armor become epic at a +9 bonus, not +11.
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 06:13 PM	Edit: +5 mithral twilight ghost touch chain shirt is still a better value, since Bracers of Armor become epic at a +9 bonus, not +11.I'm not really sure whether that's right. I knowit used to be the case in 3.0 that +8 was regular and +9 was epic. But in the SRD it states that the Bracers of Epic Armour give an armour bonus of +11 or higher. It also states that items are epic if they grant an armour bonus of over +10 (excluding enhancements to that bonus). That would suggest that the Bracers +9 and +10 are not epic. I suspect it's going to be a DM call until this is clarified.
MaverickWolf 02-24-07, 07:48 PM	Actually, Bracers of Armor become epic at a +14 bonus. You can have +8 ghost touch spell resistance (simply because I can't come up with another +2 bonus off the top of my head) bracers of armor for 169,000 gp. It's a sidebar in the Arms and Equipment Guide which has not been specifically updated to 3.5 and is therefore still valid.
MaverickWolf 02-24-07, 07:51 PM	I'm not really sure whether that's right. I knowit used to be the case in 3.0 that +8 was regular and +9 was epic. But in the SRD it states that the Bracers of Epic Armour give an armour bonus of +11 or higher. It also states that items are epic if they grant an armour bonus of over +10 (excluding enhancements to that bonus). That would suggest that the Bracers +9 and +10 are not epic. I suspect it's going to be a DM call until this is clarified. I think you're misreading the SRD. Armor is epic if it gives an enhancement bonus over +5. Pre-epic armor can't have a total effective enhancement (i.e., actual enhancement bonus + enchantments) over +10. Bracers of Armor bypass that normal rule (and on top of that, are not subject to ACP, ASF, or Max Dex).
Merestil Haye 02-24-07, 08:13 PM	I think you're misreading the SRD. Armor is epic if it gives an enhancement bonus over +5. Pre-epic armor can't have a total effective enhancement (i.e., actual enhancement bonus + enchantments) over +10. Bracers of Armor bypass that normal rule (and on top of that, are not subject to ACP, ASF, or Max Dex).No, I'm not. Everything you say is 100% right; there's just another criterion for being epic : the fourth one on the list. It says:Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus).Also, Bracers of Armour don't become epic at +14 bonus. In 3.0, they became epic if you had a +9 or higher bonus, or if the total of armour plus special ability bonus exceeded +13. I't just like a +6 armour is epic, even though its only a +6 bonus. The only question is, is the epic threshold in 3.5 +9 or +11?
TheCobra 02-24-07, 08:23 PM	Eliminating the max DEX rule entirely wouldn't be overpowered.
runestar 02-24-07, 10:22 PM	Eliminating the max DEX rule entirely wouldn't be overpowered. It would be unfair though.
paladin2019 02-24-07, 11:10 PM	It would also be in keeping with all previous editions of the game. In those, the armor bonuses (the same ones still used) were set where they were specifically with the intenet that full Dex mods would be used; ie, they ma have been a little off compared to one another, but that was considered better than limiting the Dex bonus. 3.x ignores that. That's why I boosted the medium armors 1 point and the heavies 2.
PoptartLord 02-24-07, 11:17 PM	Can we get back on track here guys? All this debate about twilight and bracers of armor belongs on a different thread.
runestar 02-24-07, 11:22 PM	Pretty much that can be said has been said, IMO. There really isn't much to get back on track to...:P
PoptartLord 02-25-07, 01:50 AM	True enough. Guess I just meant to say that the whole twilight thing should be moved elsewhere. Anyway, I feel a lot better now. It's good to know that I wasn't missing something obvious. Thanks for the input guys (both for and against). -PoptartLord
wonlee76 02-25-07, 02:49 AM	It would also be in keeping with all previous editions of the game. In those, the armor bonuses (the same ones still used) were set where they were specifically with the intenet that full Dex mods would be used; ie, they ma have been a little off compared to one another, but that was considered better than limiting the Dex bonus. 3.x ignores that. That's why I boosted the medium armors 1 point and the heavies 2. Keep in mind previous editions of the game had one big way: AC maxed out at -10 AC (equivalent to +20 to AC in total). So you had the No Max Dex Bonus on armor but there was a total cap to AC on the tail end in general for all AC bonuses.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 03:05 AM	No, there is no hard limit to AC, the charts just don't go past that. (I guess TSR assumed their customers were smart enough to figure it out.) For reference, Bahamut and Tiamat both have ACs of -15 in the AD&D2 Draconimicon
wonlee76 02-25-07, 09:32 PM	No, there is no hard limit to AC, the charts just don't go past that. (I guess TSR assumed their customers were smart enough to figure it out.) For reference, Bahamut and Tiamat both have ACs of -15 in the AD&D2 Draconimicon There was a hard limit within the rules itself. You could houserule the limit away of course but the limit was definitely there for PCs. The rule didn't apply to monsters or god like creatures such as a Bahamut or Tiamat.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 10:07 PM	So, platemail +5, a shield +5 and an 18 Dexterity doesn't equal an AC of -12? Since when?
wonlee76 02-25-07, 11:02 PM	So, platemail +5, a shield +5 and an 18 Dexterity doesn't equal an AC of -12? Since when? Since the old rules said -10 AC was the max AC a PC could get. As I said, it could've been houseruled out of your game but the 2nd edition rules weren't all that great to begin with compared to the current edition. 3rd Edition: Max Dex Bonus to AC based on armor type. 2nd Edition: No Max Dex Bonus to AC restriction but restriction on Max AC as -10 for PCs.
paladin2019 02-25-07, 11:38 PM	Apologies for the off-topic discussion. I'm done. I don't have access to my books so I can't quote them, but no lower limit was ever established to my knowledge. The to-hit matrices only go to -10 but their patterns are repeatable beyond that. Unearthed Arcana introduced +6 weapons and armor and examples of characters with ACs better than -10 exist. Please, enlighten me as to an actual rules reference.
LostPassWordDoesNotWork 02-26-07, 12:03 AM	Apologies for the off-topic discussion. I'm done. I don't have access to my books so I can't quote them, but no lower limit was ever established to my knowledge. The to-hit matrices only go to -10 but their patterns are repeatable beyond that. Unearthed Arcana introduced +6 weapons and armor and examples of characters with ACs better than -10 exist. Please, enlighten me as to an actual rules reference. Umm huh? I though Unearthed Arcane was a 3.5 release, not 2.0... Even so, Unearthed Arcane is a book of optional rules (aka house rules found on forums, there are just printed, packaged, then sold to you. Paying for house rules is a joke imo)
NoldorForce 02-26-07, 12:49 AM	Unearthed Arcana also came out as a rules text for an earlier edition. Arcana Unearthed of Malhavoc Press (also not to be confused with the 3.5 Unearthed Arcana) was a homage of sorts to it.
The_sleeper1 02-26-07, 01:51 AM	2nd ed did not have a matrix for hitting it was closer to 3.0+ in that you had some simple math that let you figgure out the number you hit. !st ed AD&D DID have a matrix because it was NOT a linear system. The system did not go up linearily at all. There may have been a note in the 1st ed books that sais no ac lower than -10 but not in second ed, I just checked it to be sure. Theres some line in there that sais that "-10 is the best armors" but it does not mention dex or any other thing or even say that it is reaily the max, its more flavor text.
paladin2019 02-26-07, 08:23 AM	AD&D's attack matrices are a linear system, until a 20 is needed to hit something. Then the 20 repeats itself 5 more times (each requiring a natural 20, not a modified one) before going on to 21, 22, etc (these requiring a natural 20 + modifiers). The matrix can be extrapolated to infinity, if necesssary. And yes, Unearthed Arcana is the title of the AD&D supplement that introduced cavaliers, barbarians, thief-acrobats and weapon specialization, among other things.