Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 02:38 PM	In all three of these descriptions it mentions that "on a successful grapple check" the damage is incurred. Reading it literally this could be taken to mean even when the PC attempts to do an action and it calls for a grapple check. How many play that this applies to only when it is a grapple check initiated by the creature versus on "any successful grapple check"? In other words if a Mimic hits you and grapples you what would you rule on the PC's turn if they made a grapple check to cast a spell and lost that grapple check? What do you think? TT
Elgonn 02-14-05, 02:42 PM	You have to initiate a grapple check in order to be successful. The player was unsuccessful. The mimic wasn't either.
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 02:47 PM	You have to initiate a grapple check in order to be successful. The player was unsuccessful. The mimic wasn't either. Okay I buy that for a buck. Any fine print to make this official versus an opinion? I never initiate a saving throw to avoid damage from a fireball yet I'm successful at it from time to time. TT
Elgonn 02-14-05, 02:48 PM	I never initiate a saving throw Yes you do. You can either roll or automatically fail. Your choice. Your action.
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 03:02 PM	Yes you do. You can either roll or automatically fail. Your choice. Your action. Again the fine print would be nice. The following passage from the PHB hardly substaintiates you claim... " A creature can forego a saving throw and willingly accept a spell's result." This in not conclusive evidence that supports your position in fact is seems to say that once a saving throw has been forced upon you that you can choose to forego it if you like. It is also not possible to initiate a saving throw just because you would like one if the spell doesn't initiate a saving throw that you may choose to use. Again do you have any fine print or are you giving opinion? TT
Elgonn 02-14-05, 03:05 PM	Again do you have any fine print or are you giving opinion? Out of curiosity if I hide and then someone comes along and makes a spot check. Were they successful at spotting me or was I unsuccessful at hiding?
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 04:59 PM	Out of curiosity if I hide and then someone comes along and makes a spot check. Were they successful at spotting me or was I unsuccessful at hiding? ??? [scratches head...wonders if this is a trick question of some kind and replies] BOTH Anyway I have asked 2 times if this is just your opinion or you could support it with material written somewhere. Since you continue to avoid answering the question..... Not that it is necessarily a bad opinion. It would just be nice if you could support it with something. Because as written the "Constrict" , "Crush", and "Improved Grab" are far more powerful special attacks then I think was intended if played strictly as written. TT
Elgonn 02-14-05, 05:07 PM	There is no grand text stating what I'm saying that I can think of. But logically the DC of something (which is all an opposed check is) cannot in itself be successful or unsuccessful. Success of an actual action is what triggers those abilities.
DevilKiller 02-14-05, 06:27 PM	To me having a character take damage for failing to escape a grapple would only make sense if he were grappled by something sharp and you ruled he injured himself while struggling. I think it is kind of a silly rule though since all of a sudden giant snakes crush fighters 2 or 3 times as fast as wizards. One thing I've always wanted clarification on though is whether or not the damage from the Constrict ability stacks with the damage from using a grapple check to damage an opponent. If not then the Constrict ability seems largely redundant for creatures with Improved Grab. I guess it would still let you do damage while using a grapple attempt to pin though, and that, come to think of it, might be pretty significant.
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 06:27 PM	There is no grand text stating what I'm saying that I can think of. But logically the DC of something (which is all an opposed check is) cannot in itself be successful or unsuccessful. Success of an actual action is what triggers those abilities. Okay.... but I'm still at reading the description and having it simply state ..... Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. or Crush (Ex): A mimic deals 1d8+4 points of damage with a successful grapple check. so if there are rules written somewhere that say to override what these descriptions are saying I would like to see them. Until then I would have to agree with others that say the literal reading is to apply the damage anytime the creature makes a successful grapple check. I'm just not sure that was the intention of the abilities. However, it could be. TT
Elgonn 02-14-05, 07:41 PM	so if there are rules written somewhere that say to override what these descriptions are saying I would like to see them. Until then I would have to agree with others that say the literal reading is to apply the damage anytime the creature makes a successful grapple check. The point is that opposing someone else's check isn't a success or failure.
Gunrock 02-14-05, 07:57 PM	My friends and I often make characters that Grapple. This damage question came up a lot. After playtesting we began to interrperet the rules as such: You have a list of options while grappling. One of them is to damage your opponent. This is opposed by a grapple check. If you succeed, you deal damage as for an unarmed attack. You can only deal this damage when 1) choosing to do so on your turn as an opposed grapple check 2) maintaining a pin. The Constrict ability is the same sort of thing, the monster decides to attack by squeezing the life out of the PC and an opposed grapple check is made. If the PC wins, he managed to not ge crushed. If the monster wins it deals damage as indicated under it's Constrict ability. When the PC makes a grapple check to get free he succeeds or fails but does not take further damage for trying. Similarly, if the PC decides to hurt the constrictor then both would roll opposed grapple checks but only the PC can cause damage (if he wins the opposed check).
TrustTymora 02-14-05, 08:17 PM	My friends and I often make characters that Grapple. This damage question came up a lot. After playtesting we began to interrperet the rules as such: You have a list of options while grappling. One of them is to damage your opponent. This is opposed by a grapple check. If you succeed, you deal damage as for an unarmed attack. You can only deal this damage when 1) choosing to do so on your turn as an opposed grapple check 2) maintaining a pin. The Constrict ability is the same sort of thing, the monster decides to attack by squeezing the life out of the PC and an opposed grapple check is made. If the PC wins, he managed to not ge crushed. If the monster wins it deals damage as indicated under it's Constrict ability. When the PC makes a grapple check to get free he succeeds or fails but does not take further damage for trying. Similarly, if the PC decides to hurt the constrictor then both would roll opposed grapple checks but only the PC can cause damage (if he wins the opposed check). Ya, I agree that is the intent, but others have stated otherwise. Last night we played that on "any" successful grapple check the mimic dealt the constrict damage. It sure made the encounter a lot tougher (that and a hot streak of 20's from the DM did it in for 2 party members). Just wondering how the majority of people play it, and if there is any actual rules that clearly indicate which way it should be played. TT
The_Ditto 02-15-05, 08:30 AM	Not sure about Crush ... But as for Constrict and Imp. Grapple, we use the specific descriptions given under the monster stats when applicable .. and in almost every case, both are described on each monster .. When you read those, you'll see that: Constrict kicks in on any successful grapple check .. Imp. Grab only kicks in when it's initiated by the critter ... :tiphat:
TrustTymora 02-15-05, 11:20 AM	Not sure about Crush ... Imp. Grab only kicks in when it's initiated by the critter ... ...exactly so once it has kicked in it says the same thing...."on each successful grapple check" So what do you do? TT
TrustTymora 02-15-05, 11:20 AM	One thing I've always wanted clarification on though is whether or not the damage from the Constrict ability stacks with the damage from using a grapple check to damage an opponent. If not then the Constrict ability seems largely redundant for creatures with Improved Grab. I guess it would still let you do damage while using a grapple attempt to pin though, and that, come to think of it, might be pretty significant. It stacks. TT