Post/Author/DateTime	Post
deanaw 02-07-05, 08:42 PM	Can someone please explain to me exactly how constrict works?
The_Ditto 02-08-05, 10:07 AM	Can someone please explain to me exactly how constrict works? Pretty simple, really .. every time you win a grapple check .. you inflict your constrict damage .. it get's pretty nasty .. as a literal reading of the rules implies damage whenever your victim tries to escape, and fails ... :eek: (IIRC .. that is .. heh) And yes, it kicks in on the initial grapple, even via Improved Grab ability ... so: - creature hits you, does normal dmg .. - triggers imp. grab, so you make opposed grapple checks .. - you lose, so you are grappled, you take constrict dmg .. - ok .. your turn .. :smirk:
deanaw 02-08-05, 11:26 AM	Really? Does constrict mean you do the damage whenever you win a grapple check? I thought that it might have meant that a creature with constrict could choose to do natural attack damage with a successful grapple check, just as a monk could do unarmed damage with a successful grapple check. Is that wrong, then?
TrustTymora 02-08-05, 11:11 PM	Pretty simple, really .. every time you win a grapple check .. you inflict your constrict damage .. it get's pretty nasty .. as a literal reading of the rules implies damage whenever your victim tries to escape, and fails ... :eek: (IIRC .. that is .. heh) And yes, it kicks in on the initial grapple, even via Improved Grab ability ... so: - creature hits you, does normal dmg .. - triggers imp. grab, so you make opposed grapple checks .. - you lose, so you are grappled, you take constrict dmg .. - ok .. your turn .. :smirk: The_Ditto - would you read the "Improved Grab" special attack the same? In other words it says..... on each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold (including constrict if you read the next sentence). So are you saying that when something tries to escape the grapple by making a grapple check that if it loses the creature with this ability actually inflicts damage? Do you play it that way? TT
The_Ditto 02-09-05, 07:34 AM	The_Ditto - would you read the "Improved Grab" special attack the same? In other words it says..... on each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold (including constrict if you read the next sentence). So are you saying that when something tries to escape the grapple by making a grapple check that if it loses the creature with this ability actually inflicts damage? Do you play it that way? TT Aww, great, you're going to make me actually look the rules up ?? *sigh* :smirk: First off .. no, constrict and Improved grab are a bit different ... let's see what we got: Ok, since I only have the SRD, I gotta look at Constrict and Imp. Grab from an actual Monster's stat block .. for argument's sake, I'm looking at the Behir .. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a behir must hit a creature of any size with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict the opponent or swallow the opponent in the following round. In this quote, the key elements are: - if it hits with the bite, he gets a free grapple check. - if he wins the grapple check ... it establishes a hold and can attempt to constrict or swallow in the following round .. so, no .. This ability of Improved Grab doesn't work for every grapple check .. just for the free grapple check it got when it bites .. now let's look closer at the constrict: Constrict (Ex): A behir deals 2d8+8 points of damage with a successful grapple check. It can make six rake attacks against a grappled foe as well. Very clear, very straight forward .. (and ironically appears to contradict 1 thing in the Imp. Grab description - I'll get to that in a sec). - if it makes a successful grapple check .. it deals constrict damage .. period. so yes, if you try to escape, and it wins, you take constrict damage. Ok, now for the little contradiction here .. ;) Improved grab says: "constrict or swallow in the following round" Constrict says: "with a successful grapple check" Constrict implies you can do it immediately .. Imp. Grab is implying you can't .. but .. I think this is just a mis-interpretation of the Imp. Grab sentence (as I think it was written poorly) .. More clearly, I see it as: - you can constrict or - you can swallow next round ... This is further supported by consistency with other monster stat blocks: Choker Constrict (Ex): A choker deals 1d3+3 points of damage with a successful grapple check against a Large or smaller creature. Because it seizes its victim by the neck, a creature in the choker’s grasp cannot speak or cast spells with verbal components. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block. This one's very clear .. as it doesn't confuse a swallow whole in the mix .. Note that it can constrict immediately ... Likewise with the Chuul: Constrict (Ex): On a successful grapple check, a chuul deals 3d6+5 points of damage. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a chuul must hit with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict or on its next turn transfer a grabbed opponent to its tentacles. and with the Couatl: Constrict (Ex): A couatl deals 2d8+6 points of damage with a successful grapple check. Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a couatl must hit a creature of up to two size categories larger with its bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Hope that helps .. :tiphat:
TrustTymora 02-09-05, 12:05 PM	The_Ditto - actually what I was wondering about was the "Improved Grab" ability in general. I have bolded the sentences in question and wonder if your literal interpretation would be the same as the literal interpretation of the "Constrict" special attack? Improved Grab (Ex): If a creature with this special attack hits with a melee weapon (usually a claw or bite attack), it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. No initial touch attack is required. Unless otherwise noted, improved grab works only against opponents at least one size category smaller than the creature. The creature has the option to conduct the grapple normally, or simply use the part of its body it used in the improved grab to hold the opponent. If it chooses to do the latter, it takes a –20 penalty on grapple checks, but is not considered grappled itself; the creature does not lose its Dexterity bonus to AC, still threatens an area, and can use its remaining attacks against other opponents. A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. If the creature does not constrict, each successful grapple check it makes during successive rounds automatically deals the damage indicated for the attack that established the hold. Otherwise, it deals constriction damage as well (the amount is given in the creature’s descriptive text). When a creature gets a hold after an improved grab attack, it pulls the opponent into its space. This act does not provoke attacks of opportunity. It can even move (possibly carrying away the opponent), provided it can drag the opponent’s weight. TT
Beamup 02-09-05, 12:29 PM	TrustTymora just posted Improved Grab, here's Constrict: Constrict (Ex): A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab. Combining this, we get that: Grapple check to establish a hold: Constrict damage is done. Improved Grab damage is NOT done here, though it WAS done prior to making the grapple check. Future grapple checks: Constrict and Improved Grab damage are both done. As to which grapple checks... yes, technically the letter of the rules say you do the damage even when the target is making a grapple check to escape (or something else). IMO, however, it's reasonably clear that this is an oversight and they MEANT that grapple checks to "damage an opponent" do this damage.
The_Ditto 02-09-05, 12:37 PM	The_Ditto - actually what I was wondering about was the "Improved Grab" ability in general. I have bolded the sentences in question and wonder if your literal interpretation would be the same as the literal interpretation of the "Constrict" special attack? TT No, not at all .. because it's not just a "literal interpretation" that I'm running off of .. Beamup summarized quite nicely what I probably wouldn't have been able to say as well .. :tiphat: Improved Grab kicks in on your turn ... constrict is a bit more .. er .. deadly ... When in doubt, ignore the general rule and read the specific entry on each creature ... that's why I posted from the Behir and other's .. and not the general description of the ability ..
TrustTymora 02-09-05, 04:37 PM	TrustTymora just posted Improved Grab, here's Constrict: Combining this, we get that: Grapple check to establish a hold: Constrict damage is done. Improved Grab damage is NOT done here, though it WAS done prior to making the grapple check. Future grapple checks: Constrict and Improved Grab damage are both done. As to which grapple checks... yes, technically the letter of the rules say you do the damage even when the target is making a grapple check to escape (or something else). IMO, however, it's reasonably clear that this is an oversight and they MEANT that grapple checks to "damage an opponent" do this damage. I agree and would use this in respect to "Constrict" as well. Next question: How many grapple checks do you give a Dire Bear? At what bonus is the grapple check(s)? What damage is each successful grapple check doing? TT
deanaw 02-09-05, 09:05 PM	So, just to make sure, what you guys agreed on is that constrict works as thus: If a creature only has Contrict: It can, in place of an attack, win an opposed grapple check to do Constrict damage to any opponent it's grappling. If a creature has Constrict and Improved Grab: It can, in place of an attack, win an opposed grapple check to do both Constrict damage and the damage done by the attack used to grab its opponent to the opponent it grabbed. -or- It can, in place of an attack, win an opposed grapple check to do Constrict damage to any opponent it's grappling. If a creature only has Improved Grab: It can, in place of an attack, win an opposed grapple check to do the damage done by the attack used to start the grapple to the opponent it grabbed.
The_Ditto 02-10-05, 01:20 PM	How many grapple checks do you give a Dire Bear? According to the Grapple section in the Combat section: Attack Your Opponent: You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a –4 penalty on such attacks. You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons. So, the Dire Bear .. as a full round action, can do 2 claws + bite .. so it just makes his normal 2 claws + bite attack .. all at -4 .. If he hits with the claws, his improved grab kicks in .. Note that the other option in a grapple: Damage Your Opponent: While grappling, you can deal damage to your opponent equivalent to an unarmed strike. Make an opposed grapple check in place of an attack. If you win, you deal nonlethal damage as normal for your unarmed strike (1d3 points for Medium attackers or 1d2 points for Small attackers, plus Strength modifiers). If you want to deal lethal damage, you take a –4 penalty on your grapple check. is not really good for a Dire Bear .. as it would not use his claw/bite dmg, but use "unarmed strike" dmg .. which probably wouldn't be as good .. note that this option clearly does not include "natural weapons" .. as the other does ... So a Dire Bear would just keep attacking .. and would get his Imp Grab consequences via that method ... In other words, he'd never try to pin .. (of course this raises the question of how does an intelligent Dire Bear - ie Druid - pin an opponent ... ) At what bonus is the grapple check(s)? +23 What damage is each successful grapple check doing? TT 2d4+10 (claw) or 2d8+5 (bite) If a creature has Constrict and Improved Grab: It can, in place of an attack, win an opposed grapple check to do both Constrict damage and the damage done by the attack used to grab its opponent to the opponent it grabbed. Not quite ... specific monsters have specific rules on their Improved Grab .. if you could find a creature somewhere with the Improved Grab feat, where it was note defined in the creature's stat block .. then we could use the general one that was pointed out ... but I think that one was just written poorly, and adds confusion .. Let's look at the Choker again: Improved Grab (Ex): [b[To use this ability[/b], a choker must hit a Large or smaller opponent with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict. Chokers receive a +4 racial bonus on grapple checks, which is already included in the statistics block. In order to use this ability, he has to hit with a tentacle attack .. if he's in the grapple, that's likely not happening .. he's probably just constricting ... use the constrict rules ..
TrustTymora 02-10-05, 03:58 PM	Let's look at the Choker again: In order to use this ability, he has to hit with a tentacle attack .. if he's in the grapple, that's likely not happening .. he's probably just constricting ... use the constrict rules .. I think I disagree. Once grappling the Choker simply uses his "Improved Grab" and "Constrict" abilities. Therefore it would be as follows: On the Choker's turn it makes 2 grapple checks as allowed normally and then makes a third grapple check due to its Quickness ability. If the Choker wins the grapple check the damage done is the origninal damage from the weapon that establishes a hold and the constrict damage. This means 1d3+3 and constrict of 1d3+3. One point of confusion is often about the bonus to grapple. Is the Choker's grapple attempt is at +5 or at +1 (-4 penalty)? A literal reading of the special attack states what damage to apply so the debate about leathal Vs non-leathal damage doesn't need to be entered into since the description is clear about what damage to apply. I'm therefore leaning towards the Choker having the grapple check at +5. In fact I posted a thread "Death by Choker" in the Monsters area about this creature. TT
TrustTymora 02-10-05, 04:30 PM	According to the Grapple section in the Combat section: So, the Dire Bear .. as a full round action, can do 2 claws + bite .. so it just makes his normal 2 claws + bite attack .. all at -4 .. If he hits with the claws, his improved grab kicks in .. Once again I would agree with this if the creature had not been given the "Improved Grab" ability. If your going to say this then are you also should apply that the damage done is actually 1d4+strength bonus for each successful attack. Because you seem to be mixing in the rule about requiring -4 to make damage leathal without applying the amount of damage done being based on size. (I'm assuming that you are using the "Damage your Opponent" option of grappling as allowing more then one attack with the "Attack your Oppenent" option needs to be debated along the "one attack" Vs "one natural weapon type" line of reasoning. And in either case would not allow for the bite grapple attempt!) However, as I have said since "Improved Grab" is in play he is effectively a better grappler. He no longer suffers the -4 penalty but rather just needs to make a successful grapple check in order to deal damage as described by the ability. In other words all damage done is 2d4+10 (claw damage) as this is the weapon a Dire Bear uses to establish a hold during a grapple. It makes it really weird because all three grapple attacks due the same damage according to "Improved Grab". I would give the attempts at +23,+23,+18. I'm not saying it is easy to visualize what is going on or that it actually makes sense. But if you read "Improved Grab" literally that is in fact what it is saying. It says that once a creature with "Improved Grab" is grappling each successful grapple check in successive rounds automatically deals X damage and if you have contrict as well then deal X + constrict. I guess I would have to describe it as the Dire Bear starts to maul you once grappling with it. [Three grapple checks all doing 2d4+10 leathal damage.] Grappling a Troll on the other hand brings up a whole different set of circumstances since it does not have "Improved Grab" and I would like to talk about that as well. TT