Constructs and Overland Movement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Constructs and Overland Movement [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duskin
01-11-06, 10:43 AM I have a player in my group whose character builds effigies which are a kind of construct that is based on other creatures (Complete Arcane p151). He wants his character to build an effigy to use as a mount, but I'm having trouble figuring out what a fair overland movement would be for such a creature.

THE PHB specifies that traveling overland is based on walking 8 hours a day. Well, a construct could run 24 hours a day and never get tired. Obviously, the rider still needs rest, but not as much as if he himself were doing the walking.

Is there a way to calculate overland movement based on a constant hustle? run? What is fair?
tarkin
01-11-06, 11:10 AM Constructs by nature should never hustle or run.

The reason is simple - being artificial, they never tire. So they should ALWAYS move as fast as they can.

Living creatures however get tired, so they normally move at a slower rate than their max.

In effect, humans have a real speed of 150, but because they are living beings and get tired, normally move at only 30, with higher speeds being reserved for emergencies.

I would allow a construct to effectively travel 12 hours a day without tiring the rider, 16 hours with the rider becoming fatigued after the 12th, and a full 24 hours with the rider being exhausted after the 16th.

If you try to push the construct on after 24 hours, the rider falls asleep. When they awake, they would be fatigued till the 16th hour, then become exhausted again.

They would need a full 8 hours sleep on real ground to remove the fatigue.
Patrick Draken-Korin
01-11-06, 02:55 PM consider; normal speed is for 1 move action. hustling is when you take a double move action. running is a double move action, and no care is given to defense so you lose your dexterity to AC.

tarkin, are you saying that constructs shouldn't be able to take 2 moves a round? or at least that they have to do something other than a double move (say ready an action?). i don't see any logic in that.

stating that a construct can't run (like the 3.0 golems or the 3.5 zombie) is one thing, but preventing the option of a double move action is silly. unless, of course, you have a real reason (like zombies having only a move action Or a standard action; double move isn't possible).

in fact, i use the house rule that golems can't run. but i know that it IS a houserule

haven't you ever heard about a construct/undead horse? without the ability to run, i'd rather have a running live one rather than a walker that don't eat/sleep (asssuming you breath as well, that's not a major factor).

Duskin; according to the RAW, constructs can run. so can undead, if you didn't know. if a creature's description (or type) states that it can't run, then it can't, but otherwise all creatures can. check the zombies description; the fact that one can't run is stated, even though this is a logical conclusion from the single action only thing.

as for overland movement, simply multiply the per day distance by x3. note that a rider must sleep sometime (if your construct/undead mount is intelligent, then sleeping in the saddle is probably safe enough; just tie yourself into the saddle). note that a rider can't sleep on a running mount, unless you create a feat that allows it (Sleep Anywhere*).

* in RL my brother must have that feat. i swear, you could hang him by his ankles (his toes couldn't bear the weight).
mvincent
01-11-06, 03:55 PM Constructs by nature should never hustle or run.

The reason is simple - being artificial, they never tire. So they should ALWAYS move as fast as they can.

Living creatures however get tired, so they normally move at a slower rate than their max.

In effect, humans have a real speed of 150, but because they are living beings and get tired, normally move at only 30, with higher speeds being reserved for emergencies.Your logic appears to be off (you seem to have it backwards). Combat is considered an emergency. Hustle movements are based on using two move actions during your turn (which can be further doubled if you move in a straight line and don't dodge; i.e. run).

Constructs can hustle, and can do so for an indefinite period of time. They should be able to do the same for running, but their lack of a constitution score is sometimes taken to mean that they cannot run very well, since the rules say: "You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running." (this is subject to interpretation, but it would probably be odd to have a construct rolling to see if it gets tired, even though they are immune to fatigue and exhaustion).

Duskin's question is valid. I would base a construct's daily movement on it's hourly hustle movement x24. However, a living rider would not able to endure this for very long. It would be wiser to be inside a padded coach for long distances.
Duskin
01-11-06, 06:39 PM Thanks for all the input. How, if at all, would you change your opinions if I told you the mount is a pegasus?
primemover003
01-11-06, 07:17 PM Remember an Effigy has no INT score so if the wizard falls alseep in the saddle the construct will continue to follow the last order exactly with no deviation. Say the wizard wants to fly from Town A to City B... there just happens to be a mountain range between them. If he falls alseep the effigy could run smack into the side of the mountain.

Keep note of this in combat too... a Construct won't avoid AoO's or use tactical movement. If the Wizard calls it to him it will move in a direct line. Make them roll listen checks too, low wisdom sucks.
Jaid
01-11-06, 07:43 PM i fail to see why you'd have to make it such a nuisance. really, it's not that big of a deal to have a construct mount in a game where teleportation eventually becomes the standard method of travel pretty much.

and at the very least, the construct would not plow into the mountain.
primemover003
01-11-06, 09:54 PM It's a robot. Garbage in/Garbage out. The construct can't think for itself, it can only follow it's last instructions. Being somewhat strict about the commands a wizard gives his construct is a balance against the power they bring.

If you've never seen an effigy in action it can be quite devastating, especially to humanoid opponents. The wizard in my last campaign built not one, but two large dragons (one red, one black). One was destroyed with a blade barrier spell it couldn't save against, but the other proved the bane of several encounters. Not only did my NPC's believe it was a real dragon most of the time, but it soaked up the majority of firepower in a given encounter allowing the PC's to mop up. Granted the bulk of the campaign was based on fighting an army of gnolls and goblinoids...
ronyon
01-12-06, 09:40 AM Are all mindless constructs that dumb?
So dumb that they would fly into a mountian?
If so, fighting guardian constructs is easy.
The DM should have to write down all the instuctions that the owner gave it.
After all what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and written instuctions will keep him honest.
Now, when I in Unseen Servants holding smoke sticks, he had better hope he thought of what the guardian does in that circumstance.
A simple "attack anything that enters wouldnt work, as a low wisdom construct isnt going to see the pary sneaking in under the partial cover of smoke.
The point is, if you unreasonably restrict the partymembers, you cant hand wave for the opposition.
Or you shouldnt, anyway.
The_Ditto
01-12-06, 10:22 AM I know not everyone holds Skip Williams rulings in high regard, however, this quote from the Rules of the Game I think is quite sound and helpful in regards to the current line of thinking:

Mindlessness: It's helpful to think of a mindless construct as a fairly simple robot that has just enough built-in programming to allow it to get along in its environment. It can recognize and avoid barriers, obstacles, and hazards. For example, it won't walk into walls or tumble into uncovered pits. It also can operate very simple devices such as levers, pulleys, and doorknobs.

Link: RotG - Constructs (Part 2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050816a)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duskin 01-11-06, 10:43 AM	I have a player in my group whose character builds effigies which are a kind of construct that is based on other creatures (Complete Arcane p151). He wants his character to build an effigy to use as a mount, but I'm having trouble figuring out what a fair overland movement would be for such a creature. THE PHB specifies that traveling overland is based on walking 8 hours a day. Well, a construct could run 24 hours a day and never get tired. Obviously, the rider still needs rest, but not as much as if he himself were doing the walking. Is there a way to calculate overland movement based on a constant hustle? run? What is fair?
tarkin 01-11-06, 11:10 AM	Constructs by nature should never hustle or run. The reason is simple - being artificial, they never tire. So they should ALWAYS move as fast as they can. Living creatures however get tired, so they normally move at a slower rate than their max. In effect, humans have a real speed of 150, but because they are living beings and get tired, normally move at only 30, with higher speeds being reserved for emergencies. I would allow a construct to effectively travel 12 hours a day without tiring the rider, 16 hours with the rider becoming fatigued after the 12th, and a full 24 hours with the rider being exhausted after the 16th. If you try to push the construct on after 24 hours, the rider falls asleep. When they awake, they would be fatigued till the 16th hour, then become exhausted again. They would need a full 8 hours sleep on real ground to remove the fatigue.
Patrick Draken-Korin 01-11-06, 02:55 PM	consider; normal speed is for 1 move action. hustling is when you take a double move action. running is a double move action, and no care is given to defense so you lose your dexterity to AC. tarkin, are you saying that constructs shouldn't be able to take 2 moves a round? or at least that they have to do something other than a double move (say ready an action?). i don't see any logic in that. stating that a construct can't run (like the 3.0 golems or the 3.5 zombie) is one thing, but preventing the option of a double move action is silly. unless, of course, you have a real reason (like zombies having only a move action Or a standard action; double move isn't possible). in fact, i use the house rule that golems can't run. but i know that it IS a houserule haven't you ever heard about a construct/undead horse? without the ability to run, i'd rather have a running live one rather than a walker that don't eat/sleep (asssuming you breath as well, that's not a major factor). Duskin; according to the RAW, constructs can run. so can undead, if you didn't know. if a creature's description (or type) states that it can't run, then it can't, but otherwise all creatures can. check the zombies description; the fact that one can't run is stated, even though this is a logical conclusion from the single action only thing. as for overland movement, simply multiply the per day distance by x3. note that a rider must sleep sometime (if your construct/undead mount is intelligent, then sleeping in the saddle is probably safe enough; just tie yourself into the saddle). note that a rider can't sleep on a running mount, unless you create a feat that allows it (Sleep Anywhere). in RL my brother must have that feat. i swear, you could hang him by his ankles (his toes couldn't bear the weight).
mvincent 01-11-06, 03:55 PM	Constructs by nature should never hustle or run. The reason is simple - being artificial, they never tire. So they should ALWAYS move as fast as they can. Living creatures however get tired, so they normally move at a slower rate than their max. In effect, humans have a real speed of 150, but because they are living beings and get tired, normally move at only 30, with higher speeds being reserved for emergencies.Your logic appears to be off (you seem to have it backwards). Combat is considered an emergency. Hustle movements are based on using two move actions during your turn (which can be further doubled if you move in a straight line and don't dodge; i.e. run). Constructs can hustle, and can do so for an indefinite period of time. They should be able to do the same for running, but their lack of a constitution score is sometimes taken to mean that they cannot run very well, since the rules say: "You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running." (this is subject to interpretation, but it would probably be odd to have a construct rolling to see if it gets tired, even though they are immune to fatigue and exhaustion). Duskin's question is valid. I would base a construct's daily movement on it's hourly hustle movement x24. However, a living rider would not able to endure this for very long. It would be wiser to be inside a padded coach for long distances.
Duskin 01-11-06, 06:39 PM	Thanks for all the input. How, if at all, would you change your opinions if I told you the mount is a pegasus?
primemover003 01-11-06, 07:17 PM	Remember an Effigy has no INT score so if the wizard falls alseep in the saddle the construct will continue to follow the last order exactly with no deviation. Say the wizard wants to fly from Town A to City B... there just happens to be a mountain range between them. If he falls alseep the effigy could run smack into the side of the mountain. Keep note of this in combat too... a Construct won't avoid AoO's or use tactical movement. If the Wizard calls it to him it will move in a direct line. Make them roll listen checks too, low wisdom sucks.
Jaid 01-11-06, 07:43 PM	i fail to see why you'd have to make it such a nuisance. really, it's not that big of a deal to have a construct mount in a game where teleportation eventually becomes the standard method of travel pretty much. and at the very least, the construct would not plow into the mountain.
primemover003 01-11-06, 09:54 PM	It's a robot. Garbage in/Garbage out. The construct can't think for itself, it can only follow it's last instructions. Being somewhat strict about the commands a wizard gives his construct is a balance against the power they bring. If you've never seen an effigy in action it can be quite devastating, especially to humanoid opponents. The wizard in my last campaign built not one, but two large dragons (one red, one black). One was destroyed with a blade barrier spell it couldn't save against, but the other proved the bane of several encounters. Not only did my NPC's believe it was a real dragon most of the time, but it soaked up the majority of firepower in a given encounter allowing the PC's to mop up. Granted the bulk of the campaign was based on fighting an army of gnolls and goblinoids...
ronyon 01-12-06, 09:40 AM	Are all mindless constructs that dumb? So dumb that they would fly into a mountian? If so, fighting guardian constructs is easy. The DM should have to write down all the instuctions that the owner gave it. After all what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, and written instuctions will keep him honest. Now, when I in Unseen Servants holding smoke sticks, he had better hope he thought of what the guardian does in that circumstance. A simple "attack anything that enters wouldnt work, as a low wisdom construct isnt going to see the pary sneaking in under the partial cover of smoke. The point is, if you unreasonably restrict the partymembers, you cant hand wave for the opposition. Or you shouldnt, anyway.
The_Ditto 01-12-06, 10:22 AM	I know not everyone holds Skip Williams rulings in high regard, however, this quote from the Rules of the Game I think is quite sound and helpful in regards to the current line of thinking: Mindlessness: It's helpful to think of a mindless construct as a fairly simple robot that has just enough built-in programming to allow it to get along in its environment. It can recognize and avoid barriers, obstacles, and hazards. For example, it won't walk into walls or tumble into uncovered pits. It also can operate very simple devices such as levers, pulleys, and doorknobs. Link: RotG - Constructs (Part 2) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050816a)