Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 05-15-07, 09:55 AM	I posted this in another thread, but for some reason, my main question just never got answered, so I decided to give this a thread of its own. And boy do I rue the day I tried to hijack another thread for my own nefarious schemes...:weep: Here is the link the the discussion so far (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847463). In summary, DMG has the prices for bracers of armour from +1 to +8. ELH/SRD has the prices of bracers of armour from +11 onwards. So what is the price for bracers of armour +9 and +10? Are they subject to epic item creation rules or not? Thus, would a bracers of armour +10 cost 100,000gp or 1,000,000gp? Thanks in advance to all.:)
jaelis 05-15-07, 09:59 AM	I would think +9 and +10 bracers should be nonepic. That fits (more or less) with the max +10 bonus equivalent on regular armor and weapons, and it's certainly under the epic price limit.
tarkin 05-15-07, 10:48 AM	The +8 max you get with Bracers is already better than the +5 max AC you get with normal armor For a Loose Game I would consider allowing a +9 or +10 Bracer, with one exception: The additional +s must be non-AC bonuses Thus you could get Bracers +8 with Light Fortification, but not straight +9 Bracers. Strict Game: No +9/+10 allowed. Loose Game: +9/+10 allowed, but no more than +8 armor. Power Game: upto +10 allowed, even pure armor. Anything Goes Game: anything you want.
jaelis 05-15-07, 11:05 AM	I thought putting non-bonus abilities on bracers was problematic, since it lets you do something like have a +5 breastplate and +1 bracers of fortification for much less than a +5 breastplate of fortification. I guess if you say that you can't apply special abilities until the bracer bonus reaches +8, that would be OK.
wonlee76 05-15-07, 11:09 AM	In my games, I would allow +8 bracers with +5 armor enhamcents without triggering the epic rules on pricing. So Bracers +8 of Heavy Fortification would cost 169,000 gold for example.
WinDReiN 05-15-07, 11:29 AM	BoA are light. No ASF, ACP, weight 1lb, works agains incorporeal. 64 000 GP. If compared with chain shirt(light) +4 which provides +8AC, +4 max dex, 20%ASF, -2ACP, 25 lb. To get rid of some thing you'll have to add mithril & twilight. Ghost touch +3. All together around +8= ~65 000 GP. You can enchant the CH from +4 to +5, but BoA have no max dex. Also DMG is published in 2003, ELH in 2002, don't know when the SRD was written. I would say +9 gets epic. Though would probably allow +8 with another type of +2 enhancement with 50% cost increase for aditional ability.
penchant 05-15-07, 12:16 PM	I think the universal reaction of DUH? results from the gap between non epic of +8 and the Epic +11 Bracers. Its a no-man's land of rule incontinuity that gamers feel the instinctive need to fill. Is it cheaper? Is it epic? Is it pre-epic but post... non... epic? Where did the +9 and +10 go? Are they with Elvis? Does HE have +10 Sequin Studded Bracers of Armor? The world may never know... unless they finally come out with the &$(#&@ Expanded Epic Level Handbook.
starfire311 05-15-07, 12:23 PM	I would go with epic IMC, but non-epic in a different campaign that wasn't using my bracer rules. IMC you can enhance bracers of armor just like armor. So you can put upto +10 worth of enhancements on bracers of armor. So theorhetically you could get Bracers of Armor +8 that grant heavy fort and enhance the armor bonus by +5 more, granting a total armor bonus of +13. These would cost a lot mroe than +5 heay fort full plate and grant the same protection.
runestar 05-15-07, 01:07 PM	Well, one or 2 of the npcs statted in the ELH(Elminster?) is wearing bracers of armour+9. Though I am not sure if he is adhering to any particular wealth guideline, and I admit I am not really epic-savvy, so I do not feel capable enough to reverse-engineer his magic gear to try and deduce the cost of his bracers. Anyone cares to give a go...?:P
Merestil Haye 05-15-07, 01:08 PM	These would cost a lot mroe than +5 heay fort full plate and grant the same protection.Bracers +8 Heavy Fortification do not protect as well as Full Plate +5 Heavy Fort unless the wearer has 22 Dex. One gives a +8 Armour bonus to AC, the other a +13 Armour bonus to AC. The question's been bothering me as well, recently. I would allow the bracers to give up to an armour bonus of +10 without triggering the epic cost multiplier, but retain the maximum +13 equivalent.
starfire311 05-15-07, 01:50 PM	Bracers +8 Heavy Fortification do not protect as well as Full Plate +5 Heavy Fort unless the wearer has 22 Dex. One gives a +8 Armour bonus to AC, the other a +13 Armour bonus to AC. The question's been bothering me as well, recently. I would allow the bracers to give up to an armour bonus of +10 without triggering the epic cost multiplier, but retain the maximum +13 equivalent. I did not think I was being ambiguous. I said So theorhetically you could get Bracers of Armor +8 that grant heavy fort and enhance the armor bonus by +5 more, granting a total armor bonus of +13. thus These would cost a lot mroe than +5 heay fort full plate and grant the same protection. IE if you put a +5 enhancement bonus to armor on bracers of armor +8 your net bonus would be +13 AC... and yes I allow this, it is not RAW. These bracers would cost 64k for the +8 bracers, then an additional +25k for the armor enhancement, for a total of 99k if you wanted to enhance it with heavy fort and +5 enhancement to AC it would cost a total of 164k
tarkin 05-15-07, 02:06 PM	Some people need a lesson in math and a lesson in bracer pricing. No, you can't add a +8 and a +5 by adding 64k + 25k That demonstrates ignorance of the armor pricing system, and is a straight power grab by someone that is just trying to cheat the system, not play fair at all. Armor is priced at total bonus squared x 1000 gp. You want a +8 and a +5 that makes 13, which prices at 13*13*1000 gp = 169,000 Why? For the same reason a suit of +5 armor with a +5 enhancement goes for (5+5)squared * 1000 = 100,000, not 5 squared * 1000 * 2 = 50,000. Armor (and weapon) enchantments that are priced at exponetally (+x instead of +x,000) were done like that on purpose. They interact in a way that makes them more valuable for a +5 than on a +1 Ghost Touched is a prime example. When you get +1 platemail and make it ghost touched your ghost touched is adding +9 to your incorporeal AC. When you do the same thing with +5 Platemail, your ghost touched is adding +13 to your incorporeal AC. Because Ghost touched on a +5 does more than on a +1, it is appropriate that Ghost Touched is more expensive to add to a +5 armor than it is for a +1 armor. There are plently of armor enchantments that do not work this way. Shadow for example does not really help more when added to a +5 instead of a +1 armor. As such it does not have the +x pricing and instead has a set value.
Merestil Haye 05-15-07, 02:22 PM	I did not think I was being ambiguous. I saidSo theorhetically you could get Bracers of Armor +8 that grant heavy fort and enhance the armor bonus by +5 more, granting a total armor bonus of +13.thusThese would cost a lot mroe than +5 heay fort full plate and grant the same protection.IE if you put a +5 enhancement bonus to armor on bracers of armor +8 your net bonus would be +13 AC... and yes I allow this, it is not RAW. These bracers would cost 64k for the +8 bracers, then an additional +25k for the armor enhancement, for a total of 99k if you wanted to enhance it with heavy fort and +5 enhancement to AC it would cost a total of 164kI did not understand what you were saying. Why? Because your houserule is so radical that I dimply never entertained for one minute the thought that you actually did that. The rule in the AEG was that you can have no more than +13 worth of enhancements in the Bracers, ever. So even allowing that, +8 bracers with +5 enhancement bonus cannot be further enchanted. And since the price calculation rules said you added the armour bonus to AC and the price equivalents, this item is priced as any other +13 bracers, at 169k. No discounts.
Gnarl 05-15-07, 03:30 PM	I posted this in another thread, but for some reason, my main question just never got answered, so I decided to give this a thread of its own. And boy do I rue the day I tried to hijack another thread for my own nefarious schemes...:weep: Here is the link the the discussion so far (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=847463). In summary, DMG has the prices for bracers of armour from +1 to +8. ELH/SRD has the prices of bracers of armour from +11 onwards. So what is the price for bracers of armour +9 and +10? Are they subject to epic item creation rules or not? Thus, would a bracers of armour +10 cost 100,000gp or 1,000,000gp? Thanks in advance to all.:) We've always assumed that you could :D. Anyway, you can always but a twilight mithral chain shirt +5 for much cheaper and monks have better things to spend their money on anyway.
starfire311 05-15-07, 05:20 PM	Some people need a lesson in math and a lesson in bracer pricing. and some people need to learn to read, I said it wasn't RAW, but it was how I run it IMC No, you can't add a +8 and a +5 by adding 64k + 25k why not... they are 2 different bonuses... if I wanted to create an item that granted a +x deflection bonus to armor and a +y natural bonus to armor, yes aside from multiple enchantments in 1 item I would just add the 2 costs together That demonstrates ignorance of the armor pricing system, and is a straight power grab by someone that is just trying to cheat the system, not play fair at all. WTH... if we houserule it then it is fair for everyone, everyone knows about it and has the option of taking advantage of it... how is this a power grab... everyone gets it, including all my NPCs, but mostly it is for the players. Armor is priced at total bonus squared x 1000 gp. Oh really so what is the cost of a +5 suit of full plate that grants a +13 armor bonus? You want a +8 and a +5 that makes 13, which prices at 13*13*1000 gp = 169,000 I don't think that is the cost of +5 full plate? Why? For the same reason a suit of +5 armor with a +5 enhancement goes for (5+5)squared * 1000 = 100,000, not 5 squared * 1000 * 2 = 50,000. yes adn this is actually a very flawed approach, it says that light fortification is more valuable if it is put on a +2 armor than a +1 armor, whcih shouldn't be the case, most if not all of the weapon and armor abilities should have a static cost or a cost that increases based on the stacking of similar abilities. Hence the new change in how all the +x skill abilties and the energy resistance abilities in armor are now static and do not count as a +x enhancement. Armor (and weapon) enchantments that are priced at exponetally (+x instead of +x,000) were done like that on purpose. They interact in a way that makes them more valuable for a +5 than on a +1 oh really, so being 25% to crits is worth 3k on a a +1 suit and worth 11k on a +5 suit and worth 19k if you have +9 in other abilities. this seems flawed to me, and yes I know it is RAW, but just because a rule is RAW does not make it the best approach. Ghost Touched is a prime example. When you get +1 platemail and make it ghost touched your ghost touched is adding +9 to your incorporeal AC. When you do the same thing with +5 Platemail, your ghost touched is adding +13 to your incorporeal AC. Because Ghost touched on a +5 does more than on a +1, it is appropriate that Ghost Touched is more expensive to add to a +5 armor than it is for a +1 armor. ghost touch is a good example, sort of, but most other abilties that cost +x are not.' There are plently of armor enchantments that do not work this way. Shadow for example does not really help more when added to a +5 instead of a +1 armor. As such it does not have the +x pricing and instead has a set value. yes there are, and I feel they need to go more to this approach I did not understand what you were saying. Why? Because your houserule is so radical that I dimply never entertained for one minute the thought that you actually did that. yes it is radical, that is why I choose to mention it, it is far different than how most other people do it, I essentailly treat bracers of armor as armor for enhancing purposes, this means you can enhance it just like armor, and it requires craft arms and armor to do. The rule in the AEG was that you can have no more than +13 worth of enhancements in the Bracers, ever. So even allowing that, +8 bracers with +5 enhancement bonus cannot be further enchanted. yes, I am well aware of those rules, those were some of the ones that called me to question the whole item crafting mechanics of DnD. Trust me I understood the item crafting rules very well before I decided to make any changes, and really they have not caused any problems. And since the price calculation rules said you added the armour bonus to AC and the price equivalents, this item is priced as any other +13 bracers, at 169k. No discounts. yep using this rule it should cost 81k - 64k = 17k to go from a +8 armor bonus to a +9, this means it should cost 17k to enahnce full plate with a +1 since you are getting the same benefit., granted the base cost of full plate is a lot less than 84k, but the benefit of going from +8 AC to +9 AC is the same, and thus should cost the same, yes the rules handle this diferently though, the same you are adding a +1 enhancement bonus to the armor bonus provided by full plate, my logic is why can't you add a +1 enhancement bonus to the armor bonus provided by bracers of armor. Basically, what I tried to do is make it more fair, so it costs the same to add a +1 enhancement to bracers of armor as it does to add a +1 enhancement to a suit of armor.
SALDAR 05-15-07, 07:01 PM	So theorhetically you could get Bracers of Armor +8 that grant heavy fort and enhance the armor bonus by +5 more, granting a total armor bonus of +13. This is not correct. Bracers of Armor are a Wondrous Item not armor so you cannot add armor enhancement bonuses to them. The A&EG sidebar allows you to add armor special abilities, such as Fortification or Fire Resistance, but not enhancement bonuses to armor.
starfire311 05-15-07, 07:10 PM	This is not correct. Bracers of Armor are a Wondrous Item not armor so you cannot add armor enhancement bonuses to them. The A&EG sidebar allows you to add armor special abilities, such as Fortification or Fire Resistance, but not enhancement bonuses to armor. Does anyone read my entire posts... IMC you can enhance bracers of armor just like armor. it is not RAW. and some people need to learn to read, I said it wasn't RAW, but it was how I run it IMC
Merestil Haye 05-15-07, 07:26 PM	yep using this rule it should cost 81k - 64k = 17k to go from a +8 armor bonus to a +9, this means it should cost 17k to enahnce full plate with a +1 since you are getting the same benefit.That is utterly irrelevant. The fact is that the Full Plate provides a mundane bonus to AC and the Bracers provide a magical one. In order to increase a magical +8 bonus to a +9 you must pay (81-64) times the factor fo whatever bonus you are granting. Every single magic item formula works this way. Why would armour be any different? I can see no justification for your rule whatsoever.
aelryinth 05-15-07, 08:57 PM	The Rules are that the bonuses for Bracers of Armor are priced and treated just like adding bonuses to normal armor is. Ergo, getting Bracers of Armor +9 or +10 is exactly the same as getting +9 or +10 of abilities put on normal armor. That's it. That's all there is to it. If you want to add other Armor bonuses and things to the Bracers, you can. You do NOT get to make Bracers of Armor up to +13. At +11, they are, just like normal armor, hitting the Epic barrier, and get the ticker added on. There has to be a reason for wearing normal armor, and the plain fact that you can get more out of it then Bracers is part of it. Remember, the two ideas are balanced. What you lose in not being able to get from Bracers vs Armor, you gain in having a higher Incorp touch AC, No Dex limit, no weight to speak of, and being able to use Int and Wis bonuses to up your AC yet further. In the long run, Bracers are actually better armor, once you can afford them and have the stats to replace your normal armor. Now, being able to get away with Bracers vs Armor+Shield is another story. Those are some hefty bonuses you have to come up with to replace both of those. --------- Oh, and I don't know about Elminster, but the Sword of Gilgaem (Gilgamesh's former champion) is an Epic level character and I believe has Bracers+10. ===Aelryinth
Vaelan 05-16-07, 03:13 AM	Bracers +9: 81,000 Bracers +10: 100,000 The big list of things that are epic say that bracers of armor go epic at +11.
starfire311 05-16-07, 09:01 AM	That is utterly irrelevant. The fact is that the Full Plate provides a mundane bonus to AC and the Bracers provide a magical one. In order to increase a magical +8 bonus to a +9 you must pay (81-64) times the factor fo whatever bonus you are granting. Every single magic item formula works this way. Why would armour be any different? I can see no justification for your rule whatsoever. Just because that is the way it works does not mean it is a good rule, or good game design. It should cost any character the same to raise their armor bonus to AC from +8 to +9. you just a get huge discount for the +8 from full plate vs the +8 from bracers because the full plate carries a lot of penalties. I just think the magic item creations rules are poorly designed, and they need to look more into balancing the prices. Both characters get the same benefit(aside from the inc touch AC, but that aint worth much IMO) out of increasing their AC from +8 to +9, but it costs one of them 17 times more than the other, this is not fair.
Nezkrul 05-16-07, 07:14 PM	every game I've played in where the players had enough money to buy them the +9 and +10 had to be special-ordered because they were special, not listed in the book, not epic by the epic +11 or higher for bracers, and costed 81k and 100k respectively. You can't just walk into a mage shop and find +9 or +10 BoA sitting there, the max you will find is what is listed in the DMG; the +8 version. So, unless you know a guy who knows a guy, in game, +8 is basically as high as you can get them; without having access to craft wondrous item.
The_sleeper1 05-16-07, 11:32 PM	oh really, so being 25% to crits is worth 3k on a a +1 suit and worth 11k on a +5 suit and worth 19k if you have +9 in other abilities. Now that you mention it yes it *IS* worth more. A sute with more effects gains a extra protection from depeth of effects. If you cannot hit nearly as often then that makes it much harder to confirm a crit and even when you do you will often have it negated and elemental damage will be negated and mabey theres a damage reduction effect in there too so the hit is reduced to nothing. What is a better help a character with ac 10 getting +1 at level 1 or a character with an ac of 19 getting a +1 to ac at level 1?
Tequila_Sunrise 05-16-07, 11:49 PM	So what is the price for bracers of armour +9 and +10? Are they subject to epic item creation rules or not? I rule that +9 and +10 bracers are non-epic. Then again, I do things like house-rule wands out of the game so I may not be representative of the mainstream community.
starfire311 05-17-07, 08:29 AM	Now that you mention it yes it *IS* worth more. A sute with more effects gains a extra protection from depeth of effects. what if I had a different magic item that gave me 25% crit/SA resistance(say Gem of light fortification), and then got a +1 suit of armor, should the cost of the magic item go up because my AC went up or the cost of the armor go up beause I have the light fortification. If you cannot hit nearly as often then that makes it much harder to confirm a crit and even when you do you will often have it negated and elemental damage will be negated and mabey theres a damage reduction effect in there too so the hit is reduced to nothing. Using this logic the higher your AC the less the Gem of fortification would be worth to you, since it will come into play less. What is a better help a character with ac 10 getting +1 at level 1 or a character with an ac of 19 getting a +1 to ac at level 1? clearly the +1 to AC 19 is better... how about this though, which is better... getting a +1 Armor bonus to AC 19 or getting a +1 armor bonus to AC 19.
The_sleeper1 05-17-07, 11:43 PM	Using this logic the higher your AC the less the Gem of fortification would be worth to you, since it will come into play less. A wizard with an ac of 10 will get killed long before crits kill him but a player with a higher ac can survive longer. If you can only be hit on a 19-20 then more of the swings that hit will be crit threats to start so the effect will be greater.
starfire311 05-18-07, 11:42 AM	A wizard with an ac of 10 will get killed long before crits kill him but a player with a higher ac can survive longer. this is rediculous logic, what if it was a frenzing berserker heavily optimized for HP, with about 200+ HP at level 10 but his AC is only 15. If you can only be hit on a 19-20 then more of the swings that hit will be crit threats to start so the effect will be greater. if you are easier to hit then you will be affected by more crits, thus gem of fortification would be mroe valuable to you. if you get hit 60% of the time then you are 6 times mroe like to suffer a crit from an attack than someone that is hit 10% of the time, and thus the fortification would be a great for you. If you get hit 60% of the time vs someone with an 18+ threat range the fortification will come into play 36/400 attacks while if you get hit 10% of the time the fortification will only come into play 4/400 attacks in this case you are 9 times more likely to use it if you have the low AC vs the high AC.
The_sleeper1 05-20-07, 03:02 AM	Out of say 100 swings if your hit 50 times and 20 of those are crits only 40% of the attacks threaten to start with. If your only hit on a crit threat then 100% of the damage you take was from hits that threatened. any up front class that only has 15 ac at level 20 will get destroyed hard, fort will not make much differance. If your takeing 300 damage in a round with out fort and 225 with fortifaction means little when you only have 200 hp.
StruckingFuggle 05-20-07, 12:59 PM	The +8 max you get with Bracers is already better than the +5 max AC you get with normal armor Only if the +5 max ac is on a Chain Shirt or any sort of medium or heavy armor. The +8 exists on its own, not enhancing an armor, but the +5 on normal armor is in addition to the armor's own armor bonus - so +8 bracers are equal to, not better than, +5 Studded Leather, and worse than anything with a higher value. Which means that, in most cases, you really are getting more armor from +5 X than you are from Bracers of Armor +8. +9 is equal to a +5 chain shirt, and +10 is chainmail or a breastplate. On the other hand, the bracers have no ASF and no max dex, and take up your forearm slots while freeing your body slot, instead of the other way around. On the first hand, though, the +5 armor still has +5 of non-epic enhancement bonus free to enhance with various non-ac-boosting effects - including Ghost Touch, which would make 'em work against touch attacks, same as the bracers. But it's still a bit not right to say +8 Bracers give you more armor than a +5 suit of armor.
aelryinth 05-20-07, 04:53 PM	what if I had a different magic item that gave me 25% crit/SA resistance(say Gem of light fortification), and then got a +1 suit of armor, should the cost of the magic item go up because my AC went up or the cost of the armor go up beause I have the light fortification. Using this logic the higher your AC the less the Gem of fortification would be worth to you, since it will come into play less. clearly the +1 to AC 19 is better... how about this though, which is better... getting a +1 Armor bonus to AC 19 or getting a +1 armor bonus to AC 19. What you have here is a pricing issue, which has nothing to do with the original poster. You want to replace Fortification effects, currently at +1/3/5, with fixed cash effects. This is perfect feasible if the GM agrees to it. However, Fortification is just another variety of AR/DR. Remember, it's all math. Fortification reduces the amount of damage you take by reducing the number of criticals you take. Armor reduces the amount of damage you take by reducing the number of times you get hit. In Warhammer, for instance, all Armor is about Damage Reduction. Armor reduces the amount of damage you take...by reducing the amount of damage per hit. However, since you get hit more, its a wash. Fortification is really not that strong an effect, until you count up the times you get crit over your career, how much damage that could mean...and exactly how bad it can be to get smacked around by a high level rogue with all those dice. It works better against some classes then against others. It shuts down assassins, it stops Burst effects...it saves you from taking damage you otherwise would have taken. Which is what armor is supposed to do, be it by deflecting the attack, absorbing the attack, or negating the attack. ====Aelryinth