Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mooncalf 03-07-07, 07:29 PM	I've been thinking about using an item (armor, robe, shirt, whatever) that grants DR 10/Adamantine, because it's cool and harder to nerf. (Seriously, who wants DR /magic on even moderate levels? Everyone and their dog - I'm looking at your animal companion, mr Ranger - has magical weapons!) Because I'm irrationally interested in the numbers, I want to break open the formula to tinker with. Besides, it should probably be a special armor ability, rated by plusses, like +3 or such. This is what we have so far: Shirt of Ironskin (Miniatures Handbook), DR 5/Adam., 90,000 gp. Nice, but the prices in MH are famously broken. I don't quite trust that number. Ring of Ironskin (ELH) 15/Adam., 400,000 gp. Unfortunately an epic item, makes it out of the league, I think. Besides, I can't quite work the numbers, which makes me suspect this is another item priced based on usefulness rather than hard math. If we assume that a ring with DR 10/Adam. would be non-epic, it'd then have to cost less than 40,000, as that is what this item costs (*10 for being epic). Enchanted item with continuous stone skin: Gives DR 10/Adam., soaks up to 70 hp before breaking, so you have to activate it again. Cost: 4*7*2000*1.5 = 84,000 + 25000 for material components = 109,000 gp. Useful, but it may be broken in terms of game balance... So what do you think, people? Any thoughts on the matter? After all, damage reduction is a privilege, not a right.
Naderion 03-07-07, 07:34 PM	I would take a look at the armor enchantments that protect against energy and back-calculate how they got their given price (actually quite simple, they were calculated by the costs in the back of the DMG, but I don't have the exact formula in mind). Then use the formula and replace protection from energy by stoneskin and you should have it. Basically, these two spells do the exactly the same thing. But I can tell you now, that that will not come cheaply either.
Mooncalf 03-07-07, 08:00 PM	Those effects take advantage of the fact that Resist Energy gives greater resistance at higher levels; they are continuous enchantments at different CL. Unfortunately Stoneskin does not have that feature. Also, Resist Energy is a lvl2 spell, while Stoneskin is lvl4. It will not offer a sleek replacement, I fear. But thanks anyway.
RavenDrake 03-07-07, 09:12 PM	Personally, I look at it like this, minimum price for a ring that gives access to the stoneskin spell is just over 100K, and it can wear out, Personally, as a DM, I'd just ad hoc that a ring of Damage Reduction 5/Adamantine always on would simply be 100,000gp. It does seem in line with other items(like the shirt). Damage reduction is not an easy thing to adjucate, so alot of it is up to individual DM's. That would be, I suspect, one of the reason why there are so few items that grant DR on a permenant basis.
Moribund 03-07-07, 09:18 PM	The axeblock, hammerblock, and spearblock armor abilities are in Complete Warrior. They provide weapon type DR, but +2 at 5/ would indicate that a 10/anything would be more expensive than +3. skin of iron from XPH and the stonemeld armor quality from ECS are other places to look for DR pricing. I think 10/adamantine DR should be crazy expensive. How often do you see monsters or even NPCs published that overcome that?
mugguod 03-07-07, 09:55 PM	from page 283 of DMG: making armor out of adamantine adds DR. Light Armor DR +1/- +5,000gp Medium DR +2/- +10,000gp Heavy DR +3/- +15,000gp
gordjohnson 03-07-07, 10:24 PM	from page 283 of DMG: making armor out of adamantine adds DR. Light Armor DR +1/- +5,000gp Medium DR +2/- +10,000gp Heavy DR +3/- +15,000gp but thats DR/- hes asking about DR/ Adamantine.... according to this table DR 10/- would be about 50,000, but you cant craft amour that thick... to do it magically I'd say 75,000... becuase its not quite as good as 10/- but theres no way to get 10/- using just metals... hows that sound?
mugguod 03-07-07, 10:44 PM	Unless there is a cheaper spell to base this on: Using table 7-33, DMG pg. 285; Armor with benefits of "Stoneskin" would cost: x price of norm armor +150 price of masterwork +45,000 spell level(3) x caster level(5) x 2,000 x 1.5 does this help?
mugguod 03-07-07, 10:54 PM	Correction: X price of norm armor +150 price of masterwork +45,000 spell level(3) x caster level(5) x 2,000 x 1.5 +12,500 250gp/diamond dust x 50 total: 57,650 + X gold pieces, if you order custom made, supply the gold piece, and come back 45 days later to pick it up. total: 70,150 + X gold pieces, if you find one "off the rack" at your local magic armor dealer.
stackmachine 03-08-07, 07:29 AM	i agree with mugguods guideline to prizing this armor, though last i checked stoneskin was still a lvl4 wiz/ sor spell; hence i would prize it as follows: X price of norm armor +150 price of masterwork +84000 spell level(4) x caster level(7) x 2,000 x 1.5 (assuming a wizard does the work) +12,500 250gp/diamond dust x 50 new total: 96650gps + prize for the armor. you can see the Miniatures HB is indeed a lil overprizing there... the true challenge would be though to convince your DM that an NPC will be willing to make you one of these; if i would have to rule on this, i'd add at least 30% for this unusual request, maybe even tie a personal quest to it, since even at a hefty prize, you'll get a most powerful enhancement, comparable in its usefulness with deathblock and spellresistance 21. Compare those prizings mate :). speaking in terms of armor-modifiers for prizing, it is at least +5, and fit for an epic fighter for sure.
mugguod 03-08-07, 09:08 AM	Stackmachine is right, it is a 4th level spell. Also, I aggree with him about making it hard to obtain. If I was your DM, I'd make you go raid a White Dragon's lair to get the diamond dust, and have the Magic Armorsmith (NPC) require you to go do him "a little favor" during the month and a half while he is making the armor.
tarkin 03-08-07, 11:26 AM	1. The fact that it is a 4th level spell may be irrelevant. Magic Items are priced it based on value, not the spell you happen to choose as it's pre-req. You use the spell only if you can't find any other method. 2. This item should NOT be given a +x,000 price. It is a clearly defensive power, and should be +x. 3. In the DMG, there is Invulnerability This suit of armor grants the wearer damage reduction of 5/magic. Strong abjuration and perhaps evocation (if miracle is used); CL 18th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, stoneskin, wish or miracle; Price +3 bonus. 4. In the Epic Handbook there is: Great Invulnerability This suit of armor or shield grants the wearer damage reduction. The damage reduction can be 10/magic, 15/magic, 5/epic, or 10/epic, depending on the armor. Caster Level: 19th (10/magic), 20th (15/magic), 21st (5/epic), 22nd (10/epic); Prerequisites: Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Epic Magic Arms and Armor, stoneskin, wish, or miracle; Market Price:+4 bonus (10/magic),+5 bonus (15/magic),+6 bonus (5/epic),+7 bonus (10/epic). Your proposed magic item, being 10/adamantine, is a little bit better than the 10/magic the Epic power offers. Magic is more common than Adamantine, so Adamantine DR is more valuable. Your Item is clearly an Epic magic item, probably selling for an Epic +5 cost. Minimum cost is 360,000 gp. ===============
Seerow 03-08-07, 11:33 AM	you'll get a most powerful enhancement, comparable in its usefulness with deathblock and spellresistance 21. Compare those prizings mate Did you just call SR21 an awesome prize to have on your armor? SR21 is worse than useless for the price they ask. It might be worthwhile for a 10th level character, but at the level you can actually buy it? It's doing you no good at all. Your proposed magic item, being 10/adamantine, is a little bit better than the 10/magic the Epic power offers. Your Item is an Epic magic item, probably selling for an Epic +6 cost. Because we all know the ELH is a great source of balanced material, all of which is completely relevant at the levels they let you get it. Seriously, DR/Magic is useless past level 5. I don't care how high the DR is, and niether does anyone else. You could offer me a +4 Armor Ability with DR500/Magic, and I STILL would say it's useless and get something else. Why? Because you can't get that armor until the point where EVERYONE bypasses DR/Magic. DR/Magic granting armor is fitting for a +1 enhancement bonus. No more. DR/Adamantine is worth a +4 for 5, +5 for 10. Less if you don't let it stack with other sources.
WinDReiN 03-08-07, 11:42 AM	I would price it in gp rather than as an enhancement bonus. Market price : around +100 000GP.
tarkin 03-08-07, 12:21 PM	... Because we all know the ELH is a great source of balanced material, all of which is completely relevant at the levels they let you get it. Seriously, DR/Magic is useless past level 5. I don't care how high the DR is, and niether does anyone else. You could offer me a +4 Armor Ability with DR500/Magic, and I STILL would say it's useless and get something else. Why? Because you can't get that armor until the point where EVERYONE bypasses DR/Magic. DR/Magic granting armor is fitting for a +1 enhancement bonus. No more. DR/Adamantine is worth a +4 for 5, +5 for 10. Less if you don't let it stack with other sources. You clearly have litte experience with the game. It is not true that EVERYONE bypasses DR/Magic. That is just silly to claim. It is true that after a certain level, every one USING WEAPONS bypasses DR/Magic. But that still means you are solidly protected against: 1. Most creatures using natural attacks. Hm. Like say that Hydra Rogue using an obscene number of Sneak Attacks. If his bite does not penetrate yoru DR, you also get to ignore his Sneak Attacks. 2. Falling, and other "ancillary" physical attacks. --------------- As the bright young man specifically was asking for DR/Adamantine instead of DR/Magic, your complaint about DR/Magic is irrelevant. DR/Adamantine is OFTEN effective, even when DR/Magic does nothing. If DR 10/magic is even possibly Epic, then you need to admit that DR 10/Adamantine might be Epic. I am willing to admit that perhaps not everything in the Epic Handbook really belongs in Epic. There are some questionable, low epic stuff. Especially if your game is a Power Game. But you need to be willing to admit that if something is more powerfull than an existing Epic item, then the place to start pricing it is as an Epic item. It is up to the inventors to convince other people that no, it is not epic. He has not done so. Not one bit. The magic enchantment he desires is clearly an Epic item. It is a worth a +5 cost, as it will be very protective against most attacks. Even if the opponent has Power Attack, what he asks for will still raise his AC by +5 (Power Attack for -5 to get +10 to damage, overcoming the DR.) +4 is too low of a price, and this is an Epic item.
mugguod 03-08-07, 09:57 PM	Further Refinement of Calculated Price: X price of norm armor +150 price of masterwork +10,000 armor made from adamantine +1,000 must have +1 enhansement min b4 special ability +84,000 spell level(4) x caster level(7) x 2,000 x 1.5 +12,500 250gp/diamond dust x 50 new(est) total: 107,650gps Since this is just a little over the cost of a +10 (100,000) armor/sheild enhansement, lets call it a +10 equivalent. So would it require a 30th level wizard to create such armor? If so, then Tarkin is right in calling it Epic armor. Also, since the special ability is based on Stoneskin, would it have a lifetime max of 70hp DR? After that it reverts to just +1 armor worth approximately 1,200gp? To get the benefit he wants within reason for a non-Epic character, Let's calculate a Rod of Stoneskin: spell level(4) x castor(7) x 1,800 = 50,400 limit it to 2 uses/day: 50,400*(2/5) = 20,160 does not use a body slot: 20,160*2 = 40,320 add 250gp/diamond dust x 50: 40,320+12,500 = 52,820gp for (50 charges)
MerlintheTuna 03-09-07, 01:26 AM	It is not true that EVERYONE bypasses DR/Magic. That is just silly to claim.It is. It's also not what he claimed. He said that everyone bypasses DR/Magic by the time you can actually get DR/Magic, which is nothing if not nearly absolutely true.1. Most creatures using natural attacks. Hm. Like say that Hydra Rogue using an obscene number of Sneak Attacks. If his bite does not penetrate yoru DR, you also get to ignore his Sneak Attacks.Hydra rogue? Hydra don't advance by class levels. They don't advance at all. And more importantly, any creature with DR/Magic (or DR/Epic) also bypasses DR/Magic with its natural attacks. Which encompasses a whole heckuva lot. I mean, hell, when a Monk can get past your damage reduction, your damage reduction quite clearly is not very good.2. Falling, and other "ancillary" physical attacks.Oh come on. Getting DR 5/Magic requires having at least +4 armor. Falling damage has long since stopped meaning anything by the time you get it.As the bright young man specifically was asking for DR/Adamantine instead of DR/Magic, your complaint about DR/Magic is irrelevant.Which, incidentally, would also make your bringing up of DR/Magic in the first place irrelevant.
stackmachine 03-09-07, 06:34 AM	Did you just call SR21 an awesome prize to have on your armor? SR21 is worse than useless for the price they ask. It might be worthwhile for a 10th level character, but at the level you can actually buy it? It's doing you no good at all. i said the protection/ usefullness was great and imho comparable, the prize is a different issue that i did not mean to imply in the discussion. please forgive my ignorance on this one, since you are right, a high-end-spell wouldnt be effectively stopped. on the other hand, it's a great protection against the low-to-mid-level spells of the fodder, until u get to the boss. in the same way the little mooks won't be able to do much damamge due to DR 10/ adamantine, SR21 will effectively stop most of those magic missiles, acid arrows or other effects created to wear the hero down. so essentially, you stop worrying about the occasional scorching ray. imho, that makes it a great protection. it is, and i give you full credit there, a prizy one :).
Mooncalf 03-16-07, 06:52 AM	Hmm, a lot of interesting ideas and suggestions. Some things I don't quite agree on, though... Since it'd be a continuous effect, the component multiplier would be x100, not x50. That's an extra 12500 gp diamonds. That's not too expensive, tho. Also, Mugguod, at these expenses, I'd ignore the 70 hp limit. One-use items are anathema to my group, with the possible exception of potions and occasional scrolls. I'm looking for a permanent effect. +5 ability could work... however, according to our way of calculating the cost, a +1 armor with a +5 ability would cost 36,000 gp (since neither by themselves breach the epic limit). That's waay too cheap. Knocking it up to +6 makes it epic, which it should be... but that would make it 490,000 gp. A bit too steep incline. Decisions, decisions...