Post/Author/DateTime	Post
malignor 05-08-07, 12:22 PM	How much would 1 lb of Adamantine cost? How much would 1 lb of Alchemical Silver cost? How much would 1 lb of Cold Iron cost? How much would 1 lb of Darkwood cost? How much would 1 lb of Mithril cost? These are not listed in the SRD. Where can I find standard prices for materials?
qwerty1 05-08-07, 12:27 PM	Do you have the DMG? If you do the information is in the Magic Items Chapter. I don't think I can tell you because the information NOT in the SRD is NOT OGL Material. :confused: Sorry.
malignor 05-08-07, 12:31 PM	Guess I just have wait till I get home then. Thanks!
mvincent 05-08-07, 12:49 PM	Do you have the DMG? If you do the information is in the Magic Items Chapter. I don't think I can tell you because the information NOT in the SRD is NOT OGL Material.The information in the DMG is the same as that given in the SRD here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialMaterials.htm). I believe he might've been asking for the pricing on raw, unfinished materials rather than the equipment pricing in the DMG.
tarkin 05-08-07, 01:58 PM	They did not give this information for a reason. Simplest way to do explain it is to refer you to the following Giant in the Playground web comics: Lesson 1: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0188.html Lesson 2: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html The basic thing to remember is the weight/price of pure metal has LITTLE if anything to do with the final value of the weapon. Otherwise it would make NO sense whatsoever for an Adamantine Great Axe, weighing 12 lbs to cost 3020 gp when an Adamantine Dart, weighing 0.5 lbs to cost 3000 gp and 5sp. ---------------- The price to make a weapon/item out of special metal has little to do with the weight of metal used. Instead it has to do with the additional costs neccessary to MAKE the weapon, not the cost to buy the special material. That is expect the weapon smith to say something like "No, you can't just use a regular wood forge to make an adamantine weapon. You need to get some special rocks that burn, from the far off land of Coalitopia, and you need special tools, and you need to pay to get the tools enchanted temporariliy, etc. etc. etc. etc." The cost to get an item made out of special material is not 'reverse engineerable'.
RavenDrake 05-08-07, 02:06 PM	The actual price, per pound, of special materials is different than the price assigned to creating items of them. The Draconomicon has listing of prices per pound of several types of exotic Trade Goods(such as Adamantine, Darkwood, mithral, etc). Note that, regardless of having or buying the special material by the pound, you must still provide the balance of 1/3 the price of the item in other raw materials to craft items yourself(or have them crafted). For example, Adamantine is listed at 100gp per pound. To craft an adamantine longsword would normally cost 1,005gp(1/3 the cost of the finished item). A longsword weights 4lbs, so even if you did buy 4 pounds of adamantine at 400gp, you would still have to pay another 605gp in raw materials(things like tools, special coal, alchemical tempers, etc). It's generally much easier NOT to bother with figuring up the price per pound of special materials since this will be calculated into the price of making the item in the first place, unless you're including adamantine bars, ready to be forged into equipment, as part of a treasure hoard.
mvincent 05-08-07, 02:08 PM	They did not give this information for a reason.Actually, WotC has given it before as trade good prices. This is particularly useful if your party say, somehow absconds with an adamantine door that you placed in your dungeon. The raw material price is indeed much different than the cost of finished items though. ... shoulda made the hinges stronger...
malignor 05-08-07, 04:42 PM	The reason I'm asking is because of the spell Fabricate. The spell requires crafting checks, but no other physical requirements besides the raw material to be finished. The extra costs included in the standard (3015gp/3 = 1005gp) for crafting an adamantine longsword, for example, are not needed beyond having just the raw adamantine on hand, plus minor expenses. It breaks down like this. Longsword - 15gp - requires 5gp of raw material to manufacture. This includes (as mentioned already) the raw iron or steel, the cord for the handle, the operating costs for the forge, and so on. Masterwork Longsword - 315gp - requires 105gp of raw material to manufacture. This includes the same materials as the longsword itself, but also likely includes the wear & tear costs of special tools for detailing, and conditioning the weapon (further strengthening the blade, and making it precisely balanced in the hand, for example), as well as some likely aesthetic additions such as semiprecious stones in the hilt and so on. More operating costs are also required, as the crafting time is so heavily extended in manufacture (crafting the 300gp masterwork component in a weapon takes time and requires the forge & tools). Adamantine Longsword - 3015gp - requires 1005gp of raw materials to manufacture. It takes a heck of a fire to forge adamantine, and probably very expensive tools, which suffer wear & tear. So alot of that money would be spent on such things. The non-adamantine costs, for the handle and detailing, are not so expensive and would fall somewhere between the 5gp for regular longswords and 105gp for masterwork. It's the adamantine blade (and possibly hilt) that soaks up that 1000gp of materials and 2000gp worth of time (meaning operating costs for the forge), and only some of that is the adamantine itself (4 lbs at the worst). Using Fabricate. Fabricate only requires the raw materials of the finished product. No tools, no forge, no operating costs, no wear & tear. Only the correct weight in the proper substances that make up the sword. So in the case of the longsword, take the most expensive material (steel, cold iron, adamantine, etc.). Assume the sword is made 100% out of that most expensive material. A longsword weighs 4 lbs. So 4 lbs of adamantine are required. Then take the costs in materials for making longsword itself (5gp) and assume, worst case scenario, that all of that is required for putting cord on the grip and other non-adamantine-made stuff. So, for an adamantine longsword via Fabricate, you need only 4 lbs of adamantine, plus 5 gp of miscellaneous materials, worst case scenario. Naturally, you have to be able to succeed at the DC15 (martial weapon) and DC20 (masterwork - separate roll) crafting checks, but it's doable.
tarkin 05-08-07, 04:55 PM	You got the right idea but the WRONG explanation. The basic problem is you think 1000 gp worth of raw materials = 1000 worth of Adamantine. That is not necceesarily true. 1,000 gp worth of RAW MATERIALS could be: 500 gp worth of Adamatine, plus 500 gp worth of coal Or 200 gp worth of adamantine, 300 gp worth of coal, 500 gp worth of cryolite (Google aluminum and learn something), a neccssary reagent in order to work with adamantine. Or even 50 gp worth of Adamantine, 200 gp worth of coal, 400 gp of Cryolite, 350 gp worth of one rare darkwood molds, that are destroyed in the process of making the blade. ------------------------- I don't deny that Adamantine is neccessary, but I do deny that you can Reverse engineer things. The only that is certain is that Fabricate requires you to pay the same amount of gold as normal for making an object. I am perfectly willing to let a player use up 1,000 gp worth of adamatnine to make a 3,000 gp sword, particularly with Fabricate. But if you start talking about weight of Adamantine per gp, then players start making bad assumptions. My basic rule is this: Fabricate is special, it is magical. As part of the spell it lets you substitue the main ingredient for all other costs: (I.E. You can make the Adamantine weapon with just pure adamantine, even though normally it uses a lot less Adamantine and uses a lot more material.) But normally, to make the weapons/items, the raw materials is a lot more than just the pure metal.
Toki_Wartooth 05-08-07, 05:02 PM	1,000 gp worth of RAW MATERIALS could be: 500 gp worth of Adamatine, plus 500 gp worth of coalThat interpretation would still allow one of the main abuses of the fabricate spell (i.e. to somehow make obscene amounts of money), while removing one of it's apparent intended uses (i.e. to spontaneously make stuff out of whatever material is on-hand... without need for coal, forges, tools, etc.) The spell says: "You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material." This seems to be it's intent. I do not think the author fully considered the ramifications of adding: " The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." My basic rule is this: Fabricate is special, it is magical. As part of the spell it lets you substitue the main ingredient for all other costsThat seems like a reasonable solution. I'm unsure if the author was actually thinking that though.
malignor 05-08-07, 05:12 PM	You got the right idea but the WRONG explanation. The basic problem is you think 1000 gp worth of raw materials = 1000 worth of Adamantine.Re-read my last post please.
risner 05-09-07, 09:23 PM	How much would 1 lb of Adamantine cost? How much would 1 lb of Alchemical Silver cost? How much would 1 lb of Cold Iron cost? How much would 1 lb of Darkwood cost? How much would 1 lb of Mithril cost? These are not listed in the SRD. Where can I find standard prices for materials? This is in the Draconomicon book. If my memory serves right, it is page 279. Just look up trade goods. Also, just to restate, these prices are for raw blocks of the metal. If you need anything crafted from the metal, you need to refer to the Craft section or the DMG for the costs since the price of crafted items is often 5 to 100 times the cost of blocks of the metal. When you use Fabricate to make a 10 lb item and you have 10 lb of raw material that cost less than the craft 1/3 price, you end up needing more raw materials. In other words, you absolutely can not use fabricate to make items for less than 1/3 cost. For example: Adamantine Longsword - 3015gp - requires 1005gp of raw materials to manufacture. So, for an adamantine longsword via Fabricate, you need only 4 lbs of adamantine, plus 5 gp of miscellaneous materials, worst case scenario. False. To make an Adamantine Longsword you need exactly, precisely 1005 gp of raw materials. That can be 1005 gp of adamantine (at 100 gp a pound that is roughly 10 lbs) or any other raw materials that you have (like gems in your pouch or coins in your bag.) If you had 4 lbs of adamantine, your craft would fail due to being 600 gp short on raw materials.
risner 05-09-07, 09:38 PM	Re-read my last post please. Why would you say this? He got what you wrote. He posted why it was wrong. And you posted as if he somehow misunderstood what you posted? Why?
RavenDrake 05-10-07, 02:59 AM	False. To make an Adamantine Longsword you need exactly, precisely 1005 gp of raw materials. That can be 1005 gp of adamantine (at 100 gp a pound that is roughly 10 lbs) or any other raw materials that you have (like gems in your pouch or coins in your bag.) If you had 4 lbs of adamantine, your craft would fail due to being 600 gp short on raw materials. Woops... You're right. I misread Fabricate's entry.
malignor 05-10-07, 06:01 PM	False. To make an Adamantine Longsword you need exactly, precisely 1005 gp of raw materials. That can be 1005 gp of adamantine (at 100 gp a pound that is roughly 10 lbs) or any other raw materials that you have (like gems in your pouch or coins in your bag.) If you had 4 lbs of adamantine, your craft would fail due to being 600 gp short on raw materials.Allow me to reiterate. 1005gp is for... - more than 4 lbs of adamantine for the blade (alot is lost in the forging). - miscellaneous materials (normal cord for the otherwise normal handle, for example) - operating costs of the means to craft. This includes the fuel for the forge, the wear & tear on tools, a possible reactant to soften the adamantine for forging, and so on. When I use the Craft (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) skill with tools, I need all those materials. Note that the mention of 1/3 the cost is described under the same section as the time it takes to make an item using the skill (and tools) alone. When I use the Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) spell, I need no forge, no tools, and no fuel. Therefore I need ONLY the raw physical components that make up the sword. A sword is not made of coals from the forge, it is made only of the steel and the covering on the handle. So I would only need some cord and 4 lbs of raw steel to use Fabricate in making a sword (even a masterwork longsword), or some cord and 4 lbs of raw adamantine to use Fabricate in making an adamantine longsword. Therefore I need only buy 4 lbs of adamantine and some cord for the handle, roll successfully on the appropriate craft checks and cast the spell. I DO know what the material components for the spell says. "The original material, which costs the same amount as the raw materials required to craft the item to be created." The silly part is an adamantine daggar (1 lb) costs roughly the same as an adamantine greatsword (8 lbs). So we have an inconsistency. The question, then, is what is reasonable? Never mind the fact that the listed prices are only that - listed prices. The economy and costs are always different from setting to setting. What the SRD says is clear enough, but nonsensical just the same. Suppose I have the spells Wall of Stone, Fabricate and any sort of Crafting skill involving stone. Since conjuring the wall was free, does this mean I can only make stone quarterstaves and stone clubs, as they are the only items in the book that have no cost? Sculptures, walls and so forth all have listed cost in some book or another, so ironically, I can't even make a stone wall using fabricate on a Wall of Stone. In essence, fabricate therefore destroys a Wall of Stone instantly, because if Fabricate did nothing, I would have successfully turned that amount of stone (in the form of a wall) into a stone wall with some value, which breaks the material component of the Fabricate spell. Hurray for logic? Another sweet piece of evidence to support the broken logic is that a forge costs money to operate. I mean, firewood has a listed cost of 1 cp/20 lbs (1 day's worth). No listing for coals, so this is as close as we get. Thus all crafters eat the cost of consumables in the crafting process (which makes Craft a more crappy way to make a living). These are additional expenses not calculated in the raw materials cost! So all this time, people have been adjudicating Crafting wrong... OR... you don't actually need a fire in the forge (it costs money), you just need to have the forge sit there in the room as it empowers you to make weapons via osmosis. To top things off, you can just have a masterwork artisan's tool in-hand and you even get +2 on Fabricating Craft checks. Heck, the SRD says so. No need for reason when we have the SRD. Oh yeah! And we can take a Rapier (20gp, 2 lbs) and use it to make a greatsword (50gp, 8 lbs)! They're made of the same stuff, the rapier is more than 1/3rd the cost of the Greatsword, so the material component has been satisfied! Nothing like using a spell to quadruple the weight of something with with a craft check. Raw materials certainly hasn't been defined. No real room for assumptions, either, since the rest of the economy is a shambles. In fact, let's go one farther. Clubs, Slings and Quarterstaves cost nothing but are made of wood and cloth. So get a quarterstaff and break it in half. Then cast fabricate on each half to turn them into 2 quarterstaves. Repeat. Viola! You have now equipped an army for free. This spell is looking better by the second.
risner 05-10-07, 09:03 PM	When I use the Fabricate (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm) spell, I need no forge, no tools, and no fuel. Therefore I need ONLY the raw physical components that make up the sword. False. When you use Fabricate, the spell provides ONLY an instantaneous Craft check. This does not prevent you from having to cover the full 1/3 cost for the raw materials. These raw materials can be anything of value. I ignored the rest of your post because it appeared it was based on a assertion that is officially false. You are either confused (and you are not looking at the material component listed in the fabricate spell) or are intentionally trying to create an exploit that officially does not exit. Fabricate absolutely does not afford you a method to create an item for even one copper less than the 1/3 raw materials cost a blacksmith would need to spend to make the item over the course of 9 months of work.
risner 05-10-07, 09:12 PM	Oh yeah! And we can take a Rapier (20gp, 2 lbs) and use it to make a greatsword (50gp, 8 lbs)! They're made of the same stuff, the rapier is more than 1/3rd the cost of the Greatsword Noticed that gem, no, that woudln't work because the rapier is worth the value of the materials, which is 2 lbs of steel and not it's 20 gp.
mvincent 05-11-07, 12:12 PM	Fabricate absolutely does not afford you a method to create an item for even one copper less than the 1/3 raw materials cost a blacksmith would need to spend to make the item over the course of 9 months of work.That does not seem like a truism at all. One of the more common (and expected) uses of fabricate might be: 1) Making a bridge out of several nearby trees 2) Turning an iron cage into armor 3) Sculpting a stone statue out of a nearby stone wall etc. I think the "Material Component" reference given in the spell description is a bit odd (i.e. poorly thought out) and subject to some interpretation.
malignor 05-11-07, 12:26 PM	How does one determine the cost of a tree? How about a cage? What are the economics of an everyday boulder? Stupid price system.
RavenDrake 05-11-07, 01:36 PM	Nevermind, my math isn't what it used to be...