Post/Author/DateTime	Post
hunterc311 02-07-07, 01:03 AM	I'm having trouble landing on the exact price of a metamagic rod of Persistent Spell, are there any item cost gurus out there who can spot me a quick number? Thanks!
risner 02-07-07, 08:38 AM	No price listed, but it would probably be 2 or 3 times the cost of Quicken if it existed. I wouldn't allow one to be made in my games.
tarkin 02-07-07, 10:48 AM	Persistent is a potentially abusive feat. I would rule it takes Epic magic to make a Rod of it.
Merestil Haye 02-07-07, 03:23 PM	Let's take a few things we do know about. Rod prices don't seem to scale that well. I've seen a thread around here which did a pretty good job of modelling the DMG costs, but (alas) didn't save the link. So. I would proceed by examining the way that price scales as the metamagic slot cost increases.We have several rods in the DMG to use as the basis for our calculation. We get the following rough conclusions. Doubling the slot cost from 1 (Silent Spell) to 2 (Empower Spell) is worth a tripling in cost. Doubling the slot cost from 2 (Empower Spell) to 4 (Quicken Spell) is worth quadrupling the cost for a lesser rod, but only a *2¼ multiplier for the others. Trebling the slot cost from 1 (Silent Spell) to 3 (Maximise Spell) is worth a *4½ multiplier for the lesser rod but *5 multiplier for the others.Comparing DMG rod prices to Complete Arcane rod prices, the cost of the rods in the latter is approximately twice the former, for the same slot modifier. I applied each suggestion in turn to an appropriate DMG metamagic rod; using Maximise for the first and second, and Empower for the third. Based on those facts, I would suggest that the price of a lesser Persist rod be 90,000gp, the regular Persist rod be 325,000gp and the greater Persist rod be 730,000gp. The price of a Lesser rod should really be in the 80-85k range with these guidelines, but I'd rather err on the high side for that rod. At these costs only the lesser Persist rod has any reasonable hope of seeing play before low epic levels. If you decide that Craft Epic Rod is required, multiply these costs by a factor of 10.
NoldorForce 02-07-07, 06:46 PM	At these costs only the lesser Persist rod has any reasonable hope of seeing play before low epic levels. If you decide that Craft Epic Rod is required, multiply these costs by a factor of 10.Bzzt, wrong. The x10 multiplier applies only for bonuses of epic scope, and a Metamagic Rod does not grant epic bonuses. (It instead grants epic benefits, depending on the rod.)
Nezkrul 02-07-07, 07:31 PM	(It instead grants epic benefits, depending on the rod.) Rule 0 enters play; BZZT you are wrong.
Witch 02-07-07, 07:35 PM	Why is it that if people think something is not balanced for regular play, it is balanced in Epic Play? Persistant Spell is flawed. I don't want to see rods of it, not in Epic, nor in regular play.
risner 02-07-07, 08:34 PM	Bzzt, wrong. The x10 multiplier applies only for bonuses of epic scope, Wrong answer, at least in so far as RAW. Any single ability that costs more than 200,000 gp is epic and requires the 10x cost. The single Rod that grants a single 3/day ability is > 200,000 gp and as such epic. Some people disagree with this rule, but your response should have been: "I think the epic rules should apply for bonuses of epic scope" instead of posting false info.
NoldorForce 02-07-07, 08:51 PM	Here's the relevant quote (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/basics.htm#marketPrice):Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.As I'd said, the x10 multiplier is only used in the case of epic bonuses. Just because a magic item is epic does not mean it triggers the multiplier; indeed, one qualifier for a magic item to be epic is a cost above 200K gp. And the ELH contains quite a few items between that value and 2M gp (the minimum magic item price if the multiplier applied everywhere), implying that the multiplier is indeed not universal.
DarknessEternal 02-08-07, 12:49 AM	Why is it that if people think something is not balanced for regular play, it is balanced in Epic Play? Because nothing is balanced in epic rules. That's the whole point of epic rules, everything is mega-stuipidly powerful intentionally.
risner 02-08-07, 01:08 AM	As I'd said, the x10 multiplier is only used in the case of epic bonuses. You make that post including the link and then go ahead and disagree with the SRD? Re-read that link you made and come back and change your opinion. I think you are not thinking clearly or something. I think you look at an item with multiple effects and say "gee this item cost 215,000 gp, so that link that all single effects above 200,000 gp are epic must be ignored because the sun is purple today." As I said and the SRD backs up, the rules/guidelines are that any single effect in excess of 200,000 gp are to be considered epic and cost 10x. That does not mean there can be no items between 200,000 gp and 2 million gp. How you came to believe that is proof of your point I will never understand.
NoldorForce 02-08-07, 09:16 AM	As I said and the SRD backs up, the rules/guidelines are that any single effect in excess of 200,000 gp are to be considered epic and cost 10x. That does not mean there can be no items between 200,000 gp and 2 million gp. How you came to believe that is proof of your point I will never understand.Use the guidelines for nonepic magic items to determine the market price of an epic magic item, with one addition: If the item gives a bonus beyond the limit allowed in for normal, nonepic magic items, multiply the portion of the market price derived from that characteristic by 10. Some epic characteristics, such as caster level, don’t trigger this multiplier.Bolding mine. As I'd said...the SRD explicitly states that the multiplier is not universal, but instead applies to epic bonuses. Here's the full text of what it means for a magic item to be epic:Grants a bonus on attacks or damage greater than +5. [Clearly a bonus.] Grants an enhancement bonus to armor higher than +5. [Clearly a bonus.] Has a special ability with a market price modifier greater than +5. [Clearly a bonus.] Grants an armor bonus of greater than +10 (not including magic armor’s enhancement bonus). [Clearly a bonus.] Grants a natural armor, deflection, or resistance bonus greater than +5. [Clearly a bonus.] Grants an enhancement bonus to an ability score greater than +6. [Clearly a bonus.] Grants an enhancement bonus on a skill check greater than +30. [Clearly a bonus.] Mimics a spell of an effective level higher than 9th. [Not a bonus. Look at epic scrolls and staves.] Has a caster level above 20th. [Not a bonus. Again, look at epic scrolls and staves.] Has a market price above 200,000 gp, not including material costs for armor or weapons, material component- or experience point-based costs, or additional value for intelligent items. [Not a bonus either. Look at the Rings of Epic Wizardry and the Mantle of Epic Spell Resistance.]That same section also has this quote:An epic magic item that grants a bonus beyond those allowed for normal magic items has a higher market price than indicated by the formulas for non-epic items.Note that both portions talk specifically about epic bonuses incurring these higher prices, as opposed to epic magic items in general. The item creation feats do not contradict this, as they merely allow one to surpass the normal limits for item creation without stating what they are. I'm not disagreeing with the SRD; I'm instead quoting text from it that supports my position. If you can find something that supports yours, by all means post it.
tarkin 02-08-07, 03:37 PM	The question is not "Does the SRD expressely state you must use the x10 pricing for this item". Instead it is "What is the appropriate price for such an item." This item is pretty much by definition Epic. It is IMMENSELY prone to abuse. Things you can do include, but are not limited to: Eybite Implosion (can claim it lets you do it 1/round as long as you concentrate, upto 24 hours instead of four rounds) Incendiry Cloud (Can you say "Burn the city to the Ground") Mage's Sword Sunbeam Whirlwind These 6 spells all give you a powerfull attack each round. The spells are limited by the duration that you can use the attack. By making it last 24 hours, you effectively become unstoppable. There are many other spells that are also almost as abusive. The basic problem with Persistent Spell is that: It is so expensive that it is rarely worth paying the level cost to use it. It is well WORTH the expense, so if you find a way to get it without paying the expense, suddenly it is overpowered. ------- If a DM were to allow you to make such an item, he should incure the x10 cost. It is CLEARLY a power that is worthy of the 'epic bonus' penalty.
Merestil Haye 02-08-07, 06:24 PM	Things you can do include, but are not limited to:Well actually I believe you are wrong in every spell you suggest. Things you can apply Persistent Spell to most certainly do not include : Eybite, which is Close range. Implosion, which is Close range. Incendiry Cloud, which is Medium range. Mage's Sword, which is Close range Whirlwind, which is Long range.The feat specifies personal or fixed range. The only one in your list which is not a variable range is Sunbeam. The principle behind the Persisted spell is that you know, when you start casting the spell, what you will affect. If the range or what the spell will affect is uncertain, you cannot persist the spell. I would disagree that Sunbeam is persistable, since you make an attack roll to aim the spell's effect, and therefore you cannot know what you will affect. Persist is not as abusable as you think. The number of spells that can be persisted is so very small that it's almost not worth the cost. The reason that it is is that the spells you can persist are worth persisting. A greater rod cost (by my estimate) 730k. That's out of reach for a sub-epic character in any game that sticks remotely close to wealth guidelines - it's about the full amount a 20th level character gets. Looking at the guidelines for epic wealth, it's ½ a 23rd level character's wealth, ¼ a 27th level character's and 10% of a 34th level character's. By the time it becomes affordable (27th level) there should be more things going on than Persisted spells to worry the DM - and a character could (in theory) get 15th level spell slots at 29th. I suggest that 730k pitches it in the right ballpark. The other rods look about right to me as well, comparing estimated costs to wealth guidelines. A Lesser rod gets affordable at 17th level - by which time the character can Persist 3rd level spells anyway. The regular rod could be obtained by sub-epic characters who are willing to put between ¼ and ½ their wealth to getting this item but passes the affordability mark at 22nd level or so.
MerlintheTuna 02-08-07, 06:29 PM	Based on those facts, I would suggest that the price of a lesser Persist rod be 90,000gp, the regular Persist rod be 325,000gp and the greater Persist rod be 730,000gp. The price of a Lesser rod should really be in the 80-85k range with these guidelines, but I'd rather err on the high side for that rod.These seems fairly reasonable, though issues will arise when a player says "Hey, according to the formulas, I can get this for a third the price if it only works on one spell per day!" Because again... there aren't necessary 3 spells you actually need/want persisted on any given day.
LordHell 02-08-07, 06:46 PM	Persistant is not flawed. The feat itself is fine. In normal circumstances you can not persist anything higher than a 3rd level spell - and touch spells are not included in this. Only personal and fixed. What is flawed is bypassing metamagic spell increases. Particulary divine metamagic since it does not take into consideration the modified spell level, just the level adjustment (i.e. always +6, no matter what spell you are persisting). A wand of persist has the potential to be extremely powerful. Most Clerics at high levels (without using any cohort turning cheese) can only persist at best 2 spells, a wand would allow 3. It should be very expensive.
Merestil Haye 02-08-07, 06:54 PM	These seems fairly reasonable, though issues will arise when a player says "Hey, according to the formulas, I can get this for a third the price if it only works on one spell per day!" Because again... there aren't necessary 3 spells you actually need/want persisted on any given day.Thanks for the thought. They might want that. I'm not saying that these are final prices. I think they're good ballparks. There may be better analyses out there on the cost of rods. My gut reaction was "do the charge-per-day rules apply to rods or are they just for wondrous items?" There might be room for argument among those lines. Or that the nature of Metamagic rods is that they must have exactly three uses per day. I'm almost certainly not going to let 1/day metamagic rods in without some argument - and not on a linear basis. PCs can expect to find that other numbers of uses per day are more expensive per use. But that's just me.
hunterc311 02-08-07, 10:22 PM	Thanks for the input and advice, I am going to go with 90k for the lesser rod and see if my DM is amenable. At least I was able to notice Merestil's post amidst all the thread hijacking going on. ;)
chucky 02-09-07, 09:20 AM	A ring of regeneration is 90k... At 90k every caster with enough money would have one. Heck they would probably think they were gimped if they didnt have one.
MerlintheTuna 02-09-07, 09:53 AM	A ring of regeneration is 90k...A wand of Mage Hand with CL 20 would be expensive, too, but that doesn't make it a good buy.
Witch 02-09-07, 10:28 AM	Wrong answer, at least in so far as RAW. Any single ability that costs more than 200,000 gp is epic and requires the 10x cost. The single Rod that grants a single 3/day ability is > 200,000 gp and as such epic. Some people disagree with this rule, but your response should have been: "I think the epic rules should apply for bonuses of epic scope" instead of posting false info. Have I ever seen you at the Epic forum? No? I thought so. You're giving false information, an item over 200k to make only requires the epic feat to make it, it does not trigger x10 pricing. It's also common sense. If price triggered epic pricing, there would be no item between 200k gold and 2 million gold. Check the Epic SRD. You'll find plenty between that. Because nothing is balanced in epic rules. That's the whole point of epic rules, everything is mega-stuipidly powerful intentionally. Powerful, but still relatively balanced.