Could a small creature use a medium sized crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Could a small creature use a medium sized crossbow? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Beware of Kobold
01-29-05, 07:11 PM I know they would at least get the -2 to atk because if the improperly sized weapon, but would they also get the -2 to atk for firing a crossbow one handed, even though they are using two hands? Maybe what I am really asking is, do ranged weapons follow the same rules as melee weapons when it comes to the "light", "one handed" and "two handed" classifications?
Kell Tainer
01-29-05, 10:25 PM If it is a medium-sized LIGHT crossbow then it would be the same as a heavy crossbow for a small creature. As long as the creature is proficient he/she shouldn't take penalties.

If it is wielded in one hand then that would incur penalties (I don't have the book with me or I would look them up).
Beware of Kobold
01-31-05, 01:30 AM i don't think it works like that in 3.5. anymore. in 3.0 a medium dagger was a small shortsword to a small creature, but in 3.5 its just a medium dagger.

anyone else have any opinions on this?
Kintara
01-31-05, 02:21 AM I don't see anything that answers this question definitively. I could see a DM ruling that since projectile weapons usually require two hands to wield, they are "two-handed weapons." Still, crossbows can be shot with one hand, at a -4 penalty. So, I can see allowing someone to shoot a crossbow one size too large at a -6 penalty. I can also see a DM just disallowing it entirely.

Or maybe there's some other way to rule it.

Edit: Sounds like a good Sage question to me.
Beamup
01-31-05, 10:49 AM Strictly by the rules, yes. A small creature can use a medium crossbow with both hands at a -2 penalty and even shoot it in one hand at -6.

Strictly by the rules, they can also use a Colossal crossbow (at least a Gargantuan object!) with both hands at a -10 penalty and even shoot it in one hand at -14.

The problem is that light/one-handed/two-handed categories only apply to melee weapons. These categories do not exist for ranged weapons. So, since most of the limitations on inappropriate weapons really come from these categories...

Essentially, it's a rules oversight that a DM will have to rule for himself. Personally I would go with "yes, requiring both hands, at -6."
Beware of Kobold
02-01-05, 01:41 AM I think I agree with you Beamup, but does anyone know if there is an official ruling on ranged weapons being considered "Two-Handed" or not?
Callahan
02-01-05, 01:48 AM Crossbow descriptions explain how you can use them. Small crossbows can be used one handed and heavy crossbows are twohanded.
Beware of Kobold
02-01-05, 02:04 AM Crossbow descriptions explain how you can use them. Small crossbows can be used one handed and heavy crossbows are twohanded.
sorry, but that's wrong

from the SRD:
Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.

it doesn't mention ranged weapons as being light, one-handed or two-handed. it is only talking about ranged weapons

from the SRD:
Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons.
Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.

any crossbow can be used one handed, but they all need two hands two load. however this doesn't actually make them two-handed or one handed weapons. Ranged weapons can't be defined by the current rules as being in any of those catagories. It does mention that they are treated "as if attacking with..." a "light weapon" (or a one-handed weapon in the case of a heavy crossbow) but that is only when you are attempting to fire them one handed, so logically would that negative modifier apply when a smaller creature uses a crossbow one size larger than it in two hands? I would say no, since he isn't using one hand, he's using both hands. However the size difference modifier would still apply making it a -2 penalty. However, as mentioned above this leads to strange situations such as a small creature using a crossbow sized for a huge creature at a -6 penalty.
Callahan
02-01-05, 02:57 AM Ok so from that we know that you can use larger crossbows at a -2 penalty with one hand, the Light takes an extra -2 penalty for using one hand (total -4 from size penalty and the one handed use penalty) and the Heavy an extra -4 (total -6).

Other Projectile Weapons would have required both hands but the cross bows have rules allowing you to use them with one hand.
Beware of Kobold
02-01-05, 03:23 AM yes but what if a small creature is using a heavy crossbow with two hands?
Callahan
02-01-05, 03:35 AM yes but what if a small creature is using a heavy crossbow with two hands?
If it's his size then there's no problem, if it's one size larger then he he does so with a -2 attack penalty.
Beware of Kobold
02-01-05, 04:21 AM If it's his size then there's no problem, if it's one size larger then he he does so with a -2 attack penalty.

that was my conclusion too, but I wanted to see what others opinions were.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Beware of Kobold 01-29-05, 07:11 PM	I know they would at least get the -2 to atk because if the improperly sized weapon, but would they also get the -2 to atk for firing a crossbow one handed, even though they are using two hands? Maybe what I am really asking is, do ranged weapons follow the same rules as melee weapons when it comes to the "light", "one handed" and "two handed" classifications?
Kell Tainer 01-29-05, 10:25 PM	If it is a medium-sized LIGHT crossbow then it would be the same as a heavy crossbow for a small creature. As long as the creature is proficient he/she shouldn't take penalties. If it is wielded in one hand then that would incur penalties (I don't have the book with me or I would look them up).
Beware of Kobold 01-31-05, 01:30 AM	i don't think it works like that in 3.5. anymore. in 3.0 a medium dagger was a small shortsword to a small creature, but in 3.5 its just a medium dagger. anyone else have any opinions on this?
Kintara 01-31-05, 02:21 AM	I don't see anything that answers this question definitively. I could see a DM ruling that since projectile weapons usually require two hands to wield, they are "two-handed weapons." Still, crossbows can be shot with one hand, at a -4 penalty. So, I can see allowing someone to shoot a crossbow one size too large at a -6 penalty. I can also see a DM just disallowing it entirely. Or maybe there's some other way to rule it. Edit: Sounds like a good Sage question to me.
Beamup 01-31-05, 10:49 AM	Strictly by the rules, yes. A small creature can use a medium crossbow with both hands at a -2 penalty and even shoot it in one hand at -6. Strictly by the rules, they can also use a Colossal crossbow (at least a Gargantuan object!) with both hands at a -10 penalty and even shoot it in one hand at -14. The problem is that light/one-handed/two-handed categories only apply to melee weapons. These categories do not exist for ranged weapons. So, since most of the limitations on inappropriate weapons really come from these categories... Essentially, it's a rules oversight that a DM will have to rule for himself. Personally I would go with "yes, requiring both hands, at -6."
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 01:41 AM	I think I agree with you Beamup, but does anyone know if there is an official ruling on ranged weapons being considered "Two-Handed" or not?
Callahan 02-01-05, 01:48 AM	Crossbow descriptions explain how you can use them. Small crossbows can be used one handed and heavy crossbows are twohanded.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 02:04 AM	Crossbow descriptions explain how you can use them. Small crossbows can be used one handed and heavy crossbows are twohanded. sorry, but that's wrong from the SRD: Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon. it doesn't mention ranged weapons as being light, one-handed or two-handed. it is only talking about ranged weapons from the SRD: Crossbow, Hand: You can draw a hand crossbow back by hand. Loading a hand crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. You can shoot, but not load, a hand crossbow with one hand at no penalty. You can shoot a hand crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. Crossbow, Heavy: You draw a heavy crossbow back by turning a small winch. Loading a heavy crossbow is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally, operating a heavy crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a heavy crossbow with one hand at a –4 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a heavy crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two one-handed weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing. Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing. any crossbow can be used one handed, but they all need two hands two load. however this doesn't actually make them two-handed or one handed weapons. Ranged weapons can't be defined by the current rules as being in any of those catagories. It does mention that they are treated "as if attacking with..." a "light weapon" (or a one-handed weapon in the case of a heavy crossbow) but that is only when you are attempting to fire them one handed, so logically would that negative modifier apply when a smaller creature uses a crossbow one size larger than it in two hands? I would say no, since he isn't using one hand, he's using both hands. However the size difference modifier would still apply making it a -2 penalty. However, as mentioned above this leads to strange situations such as a small creature using a crossbow sized for a huge creature at a -6 penalty.
Callahan 02-01-05, 02:57 AM	Ok so from that we know that you can use larger crossbows at a -2 penalty with one hand, the Light takes an extra -2 penalty for using one hand (total -4 from size penalty and the one handed use penalty) and the Heavy an extra -4 (total -6). Other Projectile Weapons would have required both hands but the cross bows have rules allowing you to use them with one hand.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 03:23 AM	yes but what if a small creature is using a heavy crossbow with two hands?
Callahan 02-01-05, 03:35 AM	yes but what if a small creature is using a heavy crossbow with two hands? If it's his size then there's no problem, if it's one size larger then he he does so with a -2 attack penalty.
Beware of Kobold 02-01-05, 04:21 AM	If it's his size then there's no problem, if it's one size larger then he he does so with a -2 attack penalty. that was my conclusion too, but I wanted to see what others opinions were.