Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jachra 01-17-07, 03:40 AM	I mean, think about it... Sure, every beginning D&D player dreams about landing himself a nice +1 magic sword (or psionic or whatever.) Imagine all the rats I could slay with this baby! But... here's the thing... the little sucker will dock you no less than 2000 solid gold coins. Oh well, we'll wait until later, maybe we'll even find one off an enemy! Several levels later and some treasure... So let's say you've gotten rather lucky on your rolls and get it pretty early, at, say, level three. All right! Level three Fighter with his +1 longsword! Bring it on, monsters! Ignoring, of course, the fact that he likely has had a strength bonus of +2 to +4 since the beginning of the game and his level has added an additional +3 to hit... not counting if he takes the (even more worthless waste of a feat than the +1 is a waste of a weapon) Weapon Focus. Sooo... yeah... at least I can hurt some monsters... that I won't be meeting for several levels if I don't want to get severely thrashed... by which time I pray I'll have the good fortune to have a better weapon... perhaps a +2! Which, of course, is statistically... how much better than a +1? Let's project somewhat farther... let's say you're a Grand Ole level 20, with your army of feats, followers, and (hopefully) enchanted items. Let's say you have a mighty +5 weapon! ...+5 to hit at level 20... +5 damage against monsters a level 20 is likely to face... waiiiit a second... I'm feeling somewhat gypped. Frankly, I'd rather go with something that enhances damage only, or critical hits. Get to hit those icky monsters and do some REAL damage to boot.
Grimmsfeld 01-17-07, 03:56 AM	Meh...accuracy is better in my book. Gives me more room to play around with power attack. Maybe not a +5 but at least +3 straight enhancement bonus. Also, it's nice to have a +1 weapon handy, in case your primary gets destroyed; you can then fall back on the crappy +1 to overcome at least DR/magic. Overloading on the energy enhancements probably isn't that great either, although it does have a high damage output on paper, once you get to a level where you could afford such a thing, creatures can and will have multiple resistances to energy types. For example, a CR 11 demon already has resistance 10 to cold, acid and fire, and immunity to electricity. You do the math and tell me how much damage is getting through from a +1 flaming shocking frost weapon is getting in compared to a +4 weapon. Also, the +4 weapon is at most 15% more likely to hit. My ideal weapon, with slight variations possible would be, in this order of importance... +1, collision (+2), +1, vicious (+1,) metalline( +2), +3. That gives me weapon+str+10+2d6* damage, and overcomes any sort of material based DR. *the 2d6 from vicious is untyped, and not subject to DR or enrgy resistances.
runestar 01-17-07, 04:01 AM	You need a +1 weapon before you can add other weapon properties. After that, the party mage should be chipping in with greater magic weapon.:)
Jachra 01-17-07, 04:16 AM	Admittedly, yes, most enemies WILL have damage reduction of some sort... Although how many have it against sonic? Not many. ;D By level 20 I'd fully expect to have a battery of enchanted weaponry. Yes, Power Attack is really the saving grace of the Fighter in many occasions. I've never had a problem with accuracy, really. Aside from those last couple +10/+5s (although by then typically I have a strength enhancer and powers know what...)
Grimmsfeld 01-17-07, 04:33 AM	Although how many have it against sonic? Not many.Thundering only works on a critical, so that's not really guarenteed sonic damage regardless of how many creatures you can find that don't have resistance to sonic damage. And, I might be forgetting something, but I can't actually think of any other enhancement that adds sonic damage to a weapon. Also, a straight enhancement bonus determines what weapons can sunder your weapon, and what weapons yours can sunder. Additionally, each point of enhancement bonus grants the weapon one extra point of hardness and one extra hitpoint, for all you sunder-monkeys out there.
diegosephroth 01-17-07, 07:52 AM	you're forgetting something REALLY important. If you deal 20 damage into a creature with damage reduction 20/+1 and your weapon is not magical- you'll be kissing the floor easily. I don't think they're worthless. Their ability to trespass damage reduction makes them so strong. And beyong, with proper feats(such as imp. power attack) and combos, your +5 longsword can give you something about +20 on damage. And believe, thats a lot.
jaelis 01-17-07, 08:06 AM	"Plus" enhancements are great, you just don't realize it. All those additional bonuses you mention typically contribute to damage too, so you start to get pretty impressive damage figures whenever you hit. But if you don't hit... no damage. Tell you what, give me a sample 10th level character with all the bells and whistles, and we'll see how much damage per round one more +1 enhancement bonus is worth against some CR 10 opponents. (That all said, the first +1 is kind of a waste since the weapon is already masterwork. But you do need it to put anything else on.)
TheDragonmaster 01-17-07, 08:37 AM	Screaming (+1) adds 1d6 Sonic Damage (unbalanced, yes, but it's in quite a few different sources) is the best energy enhancement, then Corrosive, then Shock, and if you SERIOUSLY want it, take Frost and Flaming too... That said, I still prefer the +5 Keen Sword from the +1 Flaming Frost Shock Corrosive Screaming Sword. Maybe not as dramatical, but that +20% hit chance (not 20% more... if you hit on 50/50 before, it's a 40%-increase in hit probability) still gives a lot (and has great synergy with Power Attack (or 2-Handed - FB - Leap Attack - Battle Jump - Charge - Pounce - Power Attack of DOOM)).
angryman 01-17-07, 08:42 AM	+X to hit is really good, just not dramatic. You don't remember the times your secondary or tertiary attacks miss, but that's a lot of damage you're losing because you missed by a small margin. Also, a +5 sword can equal +8 damage from the 'to hit' bonus alone, with a 2-h power attack.
runestar 01-17-07, 08:50 AM	Well, as mentioned earlier, you might not always need a +5 sword when your wiz can contribute a greater magic weapon spell each day to bump your +1 weapon up to +5, leaving you more room to add other weapon enhancements.:) I don't think the burst enhancements are really worth it for their cost. The alignment flags are always nice though.:)
jaelis 01-17-07, 09:44 AM	Well, as mentioned earlier, you might not always need a +5 sword when your wiz can contribute a greater magic weapon spell each day to bump your +1 weapon up to +5, leaving you more room to add other weapon enhancements.:) Agreed, but that doesn't mean the plus enhancements aren't good, it just means that there's a perhaps better way to get them. I don't think the burst enhancements are really worth it for their cost. The alignment flags are always nice though.:) The burst enhancements are pretty weak. The plain energy enhancements are OK, and I agree holy/unholy are pretty good, assuming you mostly fight opposite alignments. I think speed is worthwhile. Keen can be if you work at it.
WombleHunter 01-17-07, 09:53 AM	Gricks are CR 3. They have DR 10/magic. :P
Nezkrul 01-17-07, 09:59 AM	keen +1 blah of Magebane, Undead Bane, Evil Outsider Bane, Chaotic Outsider Bane, Construct Bane, Dragon Bane, and Wounding. awesome weapon. Just get a GMW from your party's mage or cleric (extended version lasts all day at 12th level) and your golden.
DarknessEternal 01-17-07, 10:02 AM	Bonuses to hit are bonuses to damage. There's a reason Power Attack is the single best combat feat in the game.
BW0222 01-17-07, 10:18 AM	Jachra, Ask any modern soldier if he'd rather have an M16 rifle or a M1 carbine from WWII? The M16 likely isn't that much better than the M1 -- maybe less than 5% more likely to hit, only slightly less weight, etc. Certainly, one could train the M1 folks better and get similiar results. You could just give the soldier an M1 rifle and tell them to spend more time at the firing range or that given a few more fire fights they'll likely be as good with the M1 as someone without as much training or experience given an M16. Sure... I'll take the training and the M16. While you are at it, give me kevlar (even though there are cheaper "almost as good" non-kevlar vests), give me carbon fiber knives (even though metal is only slightly heavier), etc. Heck, give me $30 lunches just so they weigh a bit less than a 30 cent tin! That extra 5% may seem that big of a difference, but sometime that 5% is going to come back at you. You will miss or not quite do enough damage. While that is common (same as skill checks, saving throws, etc.), for certain classes (say fighters and such) who use the sword often, chances are over several levels and dozens of combats there is a good chance that 5% will make a fatal difference. Say you are going to just miss something or just do 11hp of damage to the bugbear when it only has 11hp left and the bugbear is going to kill you (or someone else). Given the dozens of combats it takes to get that next level (and your BAB, chance at new feats, etc.) chances are that that +1 will cost you big at least once during your career.
Inigo Carmine 01-17-07, 11:10 AM	BW, good points, but you actually under-rate the advantage of +1 to attack. It is always better than 5%; it would only be a 5% increase iif you play without an automiss on a 1, and you could go from missing with a natural 1 to hitting with a natural 1. For instance, if you need an 11 or higher on a d20 to hit something, an extra +1 to attack will give you a 10%. The higher the number you need ro roll, the bigger increase in % chance to hit you get. In the (unlikely) situation where you can only hit on a nat 20 (and not because of autohit rules), you actually get a 100% increase in chance to hit because you've doubled the numbers on the d20 that allow you to hit now. And also remember, any increase in % chance to hit is an equal % increase in average damage. Never knock bonuses to hit unless you can always hit something with a nat 2.
wonlee76 01-17-07, 04:32 PM	My ideal weapon, with slight variations possible would be, in this order of importance... +1, collision (+2), +1, vicious (+1,) metalline( +2), +3. That gives me weapon+str+10+2d6* damage, and overcomes any sort of material based DR. *the 2d6 from vicious is untyped, and not subject to DR or enrgy resistances. Instead of Metalline, get Shadowstriking from Tome of Magic (+3 enhancement so you'll have to drop a +1 somewhere). Much better tohave the ability to bypass Alignment based and metal based DR all in one weapon enhancement (though the first "hit" applies the DR, all subsequent hits are bypassed).
fatchuck 01-17-07, 04:43 PM	Also, a straight enhancement bonus determines what weapons can sunder your weapon, and what weapons yours can sunder. Additionally, each point of enhancement bonus grants the weapon one extra point of hardness and one extra hitpoint, for all you sunder-monkeys out there. You're correct, but everyone should read the errata - each magical +1 to a weapon or armor does not add +1hp and +1 hardness. It adds, if memory serves, +10-12 hp and +2 hardness per +1 enhancement. See the errata links here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/er/20040125a Peace.
clannagh 01-17-07, 04:45 PM	oil of magic weapon is the friend of every cash strapped low level
Grimmsfeld 01-17-07, 05:09 PM	Dag, it is +2 hardness/+10 hp. Even better.
Worloch 01-17-07, 05:21 PM	Assuming all the numbers on your twenty sided die have an equal chance of appearing on any given roll, each number has a 5% chance to come up. When you roll to hit something, you take 1d20+your total bonus to hit, and compare it to the AC. If your total is < (less than) the AC, you miss. If it is >= (greater than or equal to) the AC, you hit. You automatically hit on a roll of a 20 and automatically miss on a 1, regardless of actual total. These two facts can be combined and then broken down in to three simple scenarios: 1) You will hit on anything but a natural 1. You have a 95% chance to hit regardless of how far your attack bonus outstrips the AC. For instance +10 attack bonus against AC 10 is just as good as a +50 attack bonus. 2) You will only hit on a natural 20. You have a 5% chance to hit regardless of how far the AC outstrips your attack bonus. For instance a +1 attack bonus is just as good as a +30 attack bonus against AC 50. 3) Somewhere in between 1 & 2. In essence, the die roll matters. Scenario's 1 & 2 are no-brainers, but the represent your caps, where your bonus to hit no longer matters. Scenario 3 is where things count, and it is limited by that range of numbers on the D20. A natural 1 always misses, and a natural 20 always hits, so all we really care about is 2-19. As stated above, each number on the die represents about 5%. If I have no attack bonus, and I try to hit AC 10, 1-9 on the die misses, 10-20 hits. I have a 45% chance of missing (9*5), and a 55% chance of hitting (11*5) (Remember to be inclusive when counting the numbers). If I get a +1 sword, I have shifted that number to a 60% chance of hitting. A +5 sword shifts your total to hit, assuming it matters (scenario's 1 & 2), by 25%, which is pretty signifigant amount. Add in the fact that you get +damage as well as +hit, and it really is quite potent, though understated. Take a longsword, with no attack or damage bonus against AC 10, swing 100 times. Given the law of averages and large numbers, assume each number on the d20 comes up 5 times. Average damage on a longsword with no damage bonus is 4.5 (1+8, divide by 2). 45 misses 55 hits 247.5 average damage done (55 hits * 4.5 average damage per hit) Now the same scenario with a +1 sword. Average damage per hit is 5.5 (2+9, divided by 2) 40 misses 60 hits 330 average damage done (60 hits * 5.5 average damage per hit) A difference of 82.5 damage over 100 swings with a simple +1 enhancement. Same scenario with a +5 sword. Average damage per hit is 9.5 (6+13, divided by 2) 20 misses 80 hits 760 average damage done (80 hits * 9.5 average damage per hit) Add in the fact that they make your weapon harder to sunder, and also help to overcome a common type of DR, enhancement bonuses are some of the best you can get (GMW included in that statement). Also, as stated, when scenario's 1 & 2 come in to play, and that bonus to hit is no longer doing anything, turn it in to +damage or +AC with power attack or combat expertise. For a lot of fun, do both.
Sul_Zain_Aserbet 01-17-07, 06:01 PM	Nothing for me to say that hasnt already been said, cept i add as well that the +1 sword makes me feel naustalgic and fuzzy.
itwasntme 01-17-07, 06:20 PM	Weapon focus by it self may be dumb but its the main Req for many other feat trees better later on week to start with +1 is all thats needed to overcome many damage restance earlyer on in the games by the time you have it you may be sighing releaf that by now you can overcome the damage reduction of many creatures allso with it your able to become much better benefits on so many things Helps your sunder atempts restance right? sure it suck if you lost your level 1 weapon to it but hell Its magicol it can do so much better then your other non magicol weapon Besides as an arguement a +1 long sword for a fighter i dount beleve fighters will realy care about it as most fighers/melee people are eather a)Duel wielding other weapons b)Two handed weapon in there hands c)Sword/shield? Allright maybe longsword could be used hear? In short a longsword is hardly ever seen in most games i know inless as a backup weapon/Weapon for the paladin I useoly see Short swords or other weapons in the hands of a Rouge Rangers useoly go Range if melee then maybe a longsword? So long sword isnt that worthwhile but eh w/e But a +1 weapon isnt overrated in my mind a +1 weapon can now overcome many things or help you overcome many things that you where haveing a very (if not impossible) Hard time to deal with at first of course after words you now want more powerfull weapons but your not complaining so much as you where before hand
clannagh 01-17-07, 06:26 PM	minor point ... +1 and plain old mastercrafted weapons have identical to hit stats (they do not stack) the only advantage of +1 over mastercrafted is the +1 version does 1 more damage
Inigo Carmine 01-17-07, 06:49 PM	the only advantage of +1 over mastercrafted is the +1 version does 1 more damage And can ignore DR X/Magic And has 2 more hardness and 10 more HP And can make saving throws unattended And has potentially higher saving throws than the wielder for effects that target the weapon And is thus no longer a valid target for things which only effect nonmagical objects. And already has undergone the first required step before any further magical enhancement can be placed on it.
DarkRhystar 01-17-07, 07:26 PM	+1 enhancements are statistically better than +1d6 enhancements in some cases. As your normal damage goes up whether from Power Attack or Strength bonuses, the extra chance of hitting becomes more significant than +xd6. As additional chance of hitting from enhancement bonus becomes fully utilize-able. For example: Consider a +1 Greatsword with 4d6 elemental damage and a +5 Greatsword, each with +16 additional damage from other sources. If the +1/4d6 Greatsword has a 50% chance to hit the enemy, the average damage will be 20.2. Since the +5 Greatsword has a 70% chance to hit the enemy, the average damage will be 21.288.
Orion_Danthyer 01-17-07, 09:31 PM	Let's project somewhat farther... let's say you're a Grand Ole level 20, with your army of feats, followers, and (hopefully) enchanted items. Let's say you have a mighty +5 weapon! ...+5 to hit at level 20... Ok one, a +5 weapon doesnt give you +5 to hit, only damage. Two, I can see your point, but not totally agreeing with you. I say use a Dragon Tooth weapon. Counts as Mw, costs just as much, and even gives you +1 element damage based on the dragon tooth it is. Its in the dragonomican.(i dont know how to spell it.)
angryman 01-17-07, 09:42 PM	Energy burst weapons can be negated by something as simple as 5/fire resistance. Holy weapons depend on the foe you're facing (though honestly, holy is almost always worth it). Keen was good until they nerfed improved critical.
BoringInfoGuy 01-17-07, 09:52 PM	Ok one, a +5 weapon doesnt give you +5 to hit, only damage. Two, I can see your point, but not totally agreeing with you. I say use a Dragon Tooth weapon. Counts as Mw, costs just as much, and even gives you +1 element damage based on the dragon tooth it is. Its in the dragonomican.(i dont know how to spell it.) No, a plus 5 weapon give you +5 to attack rolls AND damage rolls.
Mitchell 01-17-07, 09:52 PM	Also, a straight enhancement bonus determines what weapons can sunder your weapon, and what weapons yours can sunder. Additionally, each point of enhancement bonus grants the weapon one extra point of hardness and one extra hitpoint, for all you sunder-monkeys out there. From the errata:Hardness and Hit Points Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 222 Problem: The first paragraph is not consistent information for shields on page 217. Solution: Delete the first sentence after the boldface Change the next sentence to read as follows: Each +1 of enhancement bonus adds 2 to a weapon’s shield’s hardness and +10 to its hit points. But that is all it does. A +1 weapon can sunder a +5 weapon, it just takes it a little longer. That changed with 3.5.
Prime361 01-18-07, 12:06 AM	dude, +1 because you have to, 3x Forceful(increase damage die), bleeding/wounding whatever. you get that normal sword/bow with a d8 and you end up with 2d8+1 or the d6 weapon turns into a 2d6+1 weapon. there arent many really good things to do with a weapon enchantment, unless you have lots of money(more than starting character wealth) then you can go crazy. Say maybe +1, forcefulx3, dancing, returning. That kind of combo doubles the die, and yo can throw it and start casting spells while it dances/places itself in its sheath. If you are a fighter type, you get enough of throw dancing, bleeding, returning whatever to throw them continously.
R99 01-18-07, 12:12 PM	Everyone seems to be overlooking one thing: Incorperal targets. Without magic weapons: arcane caster and cleric/druid if it's undead. with +x weapons: As above plus 50% chance of 2d6+x+str from stereotype fighter and +d8+x+str from longbow/longsword in hands of ranger, ect. 50% can is alot more than 0%.
ravenshrike 01-18-07, 12:34 PM	Jachra, Ask any modern soldier if he'd rather have an M16 rifle or a M1 carbine from WWII? The M16 likely isn't that much better than the M1 -- maybe less than 5% more likely to hit, only slightly less weight, etc. Certainly, one could train the M1 folks better and get similiar results. You could just give the soldier an M1 rifle and tell them to spend more time at the firing range or that given a few more fire fights they'll likely be as good with the M1 as someone without as much training or experience given an M16. Sure... I'll take the training and the M16. While you are at it, give me kevlar (even though there are cheaper "almost as good" non-kevlar vests), give me carbon fiber knives (even though metal is only slightly heavier), etc. Heck, give me $30 lunches just so they weigh a bit less than a 30 cent tin! That extra 5% may seem that big of a difference, but sometime that 5% is going to come back at you. You will miss or not quite do enough damage. While that is common (same as skill checks, saving throws, etc.), for certain classes (say fighters and such) who use the sword often, chances are over several levels and dozens of combats there is a good chance that 5% will make a fatal difference. Say you are going to just miss something or just do 11hp of damage to the bugbear when it only has 11hp left and the bugbear is going to kill you (or someone else). Given the dozens of combats it takes to get that next level (and your BAB, chance at new feats, etc.) chances are that that +1 will cost you big at least once during your career. Ummm, if it's been readjusted for the .308 caliber, I know lots of people who would pick the M1. Switch out the M1 for the M14 and the number will go up quite a bit. Sure it's a little heavier, but it hit's a hell of a lot harder and will NOT jam if taken care of at all, unlike the M-16 which is a finicky bastard. It's also generally more accurate. When was the last time you saw an M-16 sniper conversion?
Jachra 01-18-07, 10:37 PM	Jachra, Ask any modern soldier if he'd rather have an M16 rifle or a M1 carbine from WWII? The M16 likely isn't that much better than the M1 -- maybe less than 5% more likely to hit, only slightly less weight, etc. Since this was addressed to me directly... The M1 Garand is a semi-automatic rifle with a magazine of only 8 shots. The M16 rifle is an assault rifle with a magazine of 20-30... not to mention quicker to load. It'd be like comparing a butter knife to a katana. A better analogy may be a Winchester 1866 to an M1 Garand. To one of the other guys who was talking about an M1... I'd go the M16. If I'm a sniper, that's another story, but relying on an M1 in any other combat situation sounds tantamount to suicide.
Optimator 01-19-07, 08:40 AM	I think I remember reading on Wiki McNeverwrong about the M16. If memory serves, one of the reasons it was designed the way it was (bullet size and capacity) is because the number of shots fired was determined to be more important than the accuracy or stopping power in some studies or something. I could be wrong, but I really remember reading something like this. Way off topic though, but whatever.
Optimator 01-19-07, 08:43 AM	I was right! Project SALVO In 1948, the Army organized the civilian Operations Research Office (ORO), mirroring similar operations research organizations in the United Kingdom. One of their first efforts, Project ALCLAD, studied body armor and quickly concluded that they would need to know considerably more about battlefield injuries in order to make reasonable suggestions. Over 3 million battlefield reports from WWII were analyzed and over the next few years they released a series of reports on their findings. Their basic conclusion was that most combat takes place at short range. In a highly mobile war, combat teams ran into each other largely by surprise; and the team with the higher firepower tended to win. They also found that the chance of being hit in combat was essentially random — that is, accurate "aiming" made little difference because the targets no longer sat still. The number one predictor of casualties was the total number of bullets fired. These conclusions suggested that infantry should be equipped with a fully-automatic rifle of some sort in order to increase the rate of fire. It was also clear, however, that such weapons dramatically increased ammunition use and in order for a rifleman to be able to carry enough ammunition for a firefight they would have to carry something much lighter. Existing rifles were poorly suited to real-world combat for both of these reasons. Although it appeared the new 7.62 mm T44 (precursor to the M14) would increase the rate of fire, its heavy 7.62 mm NATO cartridge made carrying significant quantities of ammunition a real problem. Moreover the length and weight of the weapon made it unsuitable for short range combat situations often found in jungle and urban combat or mechanized warfare, where a smaller and lighter weapon could be brought to bear much more quickly.
DarknessEternal 01-19-07, 09:34 AM	d20 Modern has its own forums. Please take that debate there.
armnaxis 01-19-07, 09:51 AM	In Two-handed fighting with PA, the math is very easy: A) +1 weapon enhancement means +0 to hit and +3 damage, multiplied if crit. B) frost means +0 to hit and +3.5 cold on average, not multiplied if crit., no extra damage at all if target has energy resistance, loss of flexibility. I choose A). Weapon enhancements are GREAT in TH-fighting. The one thing that makes me like to spend +1 for something else is... bane (whatever), if you fight whatever often; and blessed if you fight evil often (even better if you have taken Improved Critical).
IronMouse 01-19-07, 09:57 AM	If you want to make enhancement bonusses more useful, use 3.0 damage reduction rules, ban Greater Magic Weapon and watch the fun :)
BW0222 01-19-07, 11:53 AM	Folks, My M1 vs. M16 analogy is only that... an analogy. It wasn't some direct comparision between weapons, soldiers, etc. If two squads faces each other is a street battle -- one slightly better trained and using M1s, and one not so well trained using M16s -- they would likely be somewhere in the even range. Both sides would likely still take casualties. That said, even if you were part of the better trained group, you'd still want the superior weapon also. i.e. if you life was at stake, you'll take every advantage you can afford, no mater how small. Inigo Carmine, good points, but you actually under-rate the advantage of +1 to attack. It is always better than 5%; ... The question isn't "Is 5% more likely to hit each attack?", the question is "Is it 5% more likely to make an overall difference in combat?" I realize that it is likely a 10% more chance of hitting, some small percentage more of getting a critical hit, and some more percentage of dropping a creature with the extra damage. However... First, whether you miss or hit may not make a hill of beans. Another party member might kill it anyway, it could miss and you'd kill it the next round, it could run away anyway, you take the damage and are resting up anyway, etc. Overall the missing +1 from one player certainly isn't a 5% shift in the overall battle. More like 0.1% or something. Second, if you don't have a +1 weapon, you likely have the equivalent in other gear. So, you may miss, but that is likely offset by the fact they won't hit you because you now have +1 armor, or they won't get a chance to hit you because the wizard has a wand of sleep, or you take the hit because you now have eight potions of cure light wounds, etc. Third, masterwork weapons are pretty cheep. If you don't have a +1 weapon, chances are you still have a masterwork weapon. However, my point is that you will be fighting enough combats that as some time that extra hit or damage might actually determine whether a character lives or dies. Honestly, that chance is more like 0.1% or something. However, like a soldier going into combat, the adventurer will take every advantage he can afford.
Jay_Ibero_911 01-19-07, 12:06 PM	If you want to deal a lot fo extra damage against evil outsiders...get a +1 Holy Sacred Bane(Evil Oustiders) Bane(Mage) Starmetal weapon....almost all evil outsiders have spell-like abilities which would trigger the magebane, so in total you do base weapon damage +9d6+5 (because with the 2 banes, the weapon becomes a +5 weapon total). Add in a level of Occult Slayer and you get a total of 10d6 in extra dice, like adding a maxed out fireball yo all your attacks...
jadehawk 01-19-07, 12:06 PM	yeah, and requiring a +1 before putting any other magic bonuses down is the same reason weapon focus is important, as it is a prerequisite to weapon spec, and the greater versions, as well as other feats and certain prestige classes...do not underestimate the power of an increased attack and damage bonus (particularly when matched with power attack). I would be hardpressed to downplay the +1 magic bonus on items. It bypasses damage reduction magic, though that doesn't come up so much in the early levels. In higher levels, you need a +6 magic bonus to bypass damage reduction epic (albeit this DR doesn't come up much at all). But comparing a constant +1 to hit and damage to a similar +1 magical enhancement energy damage, say +1d6 fire you could see how even they are. 1d6 Fire damage deals an average 3.5 points of damage, and only on creatures that do not resist or that are not immune to fire damage, though that is slightly offset by the number of creatures vulnerable to fire. All in all, I would say that with all the resistances out their, that 1d6 fire is worth a +2 or +3 constant to damage, which is comparable to a +1 hit, +1 damage (as well as the build up towards bypassing epic DR, increasing hardness and hitpoints, and increasing on item saving throws).
High Octane 01-19-07, 01:11 PM	Well you will need that magic weapon to bypass damage reduction pretty early in the game. You can easily solve that by using magic weapon when necessary, but that wastes a turn and unless you are metagaming you will need a decent knowledge check.
TheDragonmaster 01-22-07, 12:49 PM	I think that his point is that rather than a M16, he would prefer a +5 Holy Keen Collision M16...
Talonos 01-22-07, 03:08 PM	... 45 misses 55 hits 247.5 average damage done (55 hits * 4.5 average damage per hit) Now the same scenario with a +1 sword. Average damage per hit is 5.5 (2+9, divided by 2) 40 misses 60 hits 330 average damage done (60 hits * 5.5 average damage per hit) A difference of 82.5 damage over 100 swings with a simple +1 enhancement. Same scenario with a +5 sword. Average damage per hit is 9.5 (6+13, divided by 2) 20 misses 80 hits 760 average damage done (80 hits * 9.5 average damage per hit) ... This gets even crazier when you look at foes with High Armorclass and unblockable DR. Fighter Bob is fighting a dwarven defender with an insane armor class. Lets say... 40. (Not unreasonable.) Let's also say this dwarven has his DR 6/- ability. Fighter Bob has 18 Str, +16 BAB, and weapon focus and greater weapon focus, giving him a total attack bonus of 22. With a normal greatsword dealing 2d6+8 damage (Weapon specialization) attacking a hundred times, he needs a 18 to hit: 85 misses 15 hits 135 average damage done (15 hits * 9 average damage per hit (after DR)) Now, same situation, but a +5 weapon. He only needs a 13 to hit: 60 misses 40 hits 560 average damage done (40 hits * 14 average damage per hit (after DR)) That's about four times as much damage! Suddenly, the fighter goes from being completely useless to hitting a decent about of the time and dealing a fair amount of damage on a hit. That, and when making a full attack, he actually has a chance to hit on his second attack. Heck, even a humble +1 weapon against our dwarven tank foe: 80 misses 20 hits 200 average damage done (20 hits * 10 average damage per hit (after DR)) You're getting 1.5 times the damage in on this guy. As a DM who's had the opprotunity to "acid test" many different NPC builds against a relatively static group of heroes, I can tell you that enchanted weapons are almost always worth it. Every +1 counts. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made bless and prayer.
The_sleeper1 01-22-07, 05:00 PM	I think that the OP is way off base. If you look at the chance to hit with all those garbage +1's to hit, bless, +1 weapon, focus a low level character even at level 3 can gain a siginifant advantage in melee. Sometimes it will not have massive advantage as posted above from Talonos but at the the level you get it for any fight thats reasonable it is a solid increase in preformance and theres a reason that characters want them. point in case if your a level 20 character attacking with a normal weapon and you need a 20 to hit with a +5 you will hit 500% MORE and on top of that you will get +5 to damage, before you can roll damage you need to hit and you can not do that you can have all the damage bonus and it counts for nothing.
Aryxbez 01-22-07, 06:07 PM	I personally like a +3 balanced weapon my self or a +1 speed or a +2 magebane, Holy weapon that there is a very weapon but mostly I just go with a magic weapon that fits my character but A +5 weapon can be good since now it looks all superbly powerful, got good accuracy, decent and consistent damage and it becomes a very hard weapon to break, and combo that with admantine and you got one heck of a hard weapon to break especially if that weapon happens to be a mace or a Hammer.
Nezkrul 01-22-07, 10:03 PM	so in total you do base weapon damage +9d6+5 (because with the 2 banes, the weapon becomes a +5 weapon total). Incorrect. Read bane carefully: Against its designated foe, its effective enhancement bonus is +2 better than its normal enhancement bonus. It deals an extra 2d6 points of damage against the foe. emphasis mine. the extra 2d6 damage piles on for banes that affect the same creature (magebane + evil outsider bane for example), but only the first +2 increase to the enhancement bonus works because "+2 better than its normal bonus" and "+2 better than its normal bonus" is still just +2.
Constantin_Guderian 01-23-07, 10:41 AM	From the errata: But that is all it does. A +1 weapon can sunder a +5 weapon, it just takes it a little longer. That changed with 3.5. Actually.. you are completely incorrect! Please refer to the very top, left hand column of pg222 of the DMG v3.5. In order to sunder (damage) the +5 weapon in your example, you MUST have at least a +5 weapon of your own.. no ifs, ands, or buts. The +1 weapon of your fanciful but flawed fantasy just will not do... As well, as mentioned by others before, the errata for the DMG v3.5 does state to add 2 Hardness and 10 HP for each +1 of enhancement. This being said... I think anyone can see the benefit of having this "paltry" +1 weapon. No lowly Orc or Hobgoblin or Ogre or any other critter without at least a +1 enhancement to their weapon can affect, sunder, or otherwise break a "worthless ol'" +1 weapon....... What happens when your "lowly and ignoble" +1 sword starts taking damage from critters using +2 weapons? Upgrade! :cool:
Talonos 01-23-07, 12:49 PM	Sometimes it will not have massive advantage as posted above from Talonos... It deepnds on your campaign. If you fight low AC people, it's not that much useful. If you fight high AC people, it's very useful. To show this point off by taking it to the extremes, say you have a +9 Attack bonus before weapons. You attack a foe with AC 30. With a +1 weapon, you hit on a 20 only. With a +2 weapon, you hit on a 19-20, doubling your chance to hit, and adding +1 to damage, making your damage output over twice what it was. Say you attack a foe with AC 13. You hit on a 3 with a +1 weapon. You hit on anything but a natural one with a +2 weapon. Your chances to hit only improved by 5.5%. Your damage output is a point higher, but that's hardly useful. So, are enhancements to weapons worth it? It depends on your campaign. Myself, I don't like thowing large amounts of weak guys at my players. This means that they often fight powerful people with class levels, and often need to hit high ACs. It's worth it to them. If your DM like large encounters with easier enemies, and sends 16 kobolds at once against you, (technically a CR 7, if you beleive those rules) then you can safely ignore enhancement bonuses to weapons, and spend the money putting that extra +1 or 2 to your AC.
G_Mancer 01-23-07, 10:24 PM	i would like to point out that you cant have any special abilities ona sword(Even masterwork) without first having at least a +1 on it allready. if anyone disagrees with this, it is stated in the the same section in the DMG. by sword i mean weapon
clannagh 01-24-07, 12:03 AM	do note that who is hitting and what the weapon is makes a big difference CASE 1. mad TWF specialsit with ludicrous number of attacks - clearly adding flaming/frost etc to the weapon is way better than adding an extra +1 to enhancement CASE 2 charging cavallier doing 5X damage on a hit and 7x on a crit with a lance - in this case adding extra + enhancements is way better than flaming/shocking etc
Urzza 01-24-07, 12:03 AM	Right, here's a little question that could factor into this: Is the +1/2/ect. damage from a weapon that has a +1/2/ect. enchantment multiplied on a crit?
BenSan 01-24-07, 02:30 AM	CASE 1. mad TWF specialsit with ludicrous number of attacks - clearly adding flaming/frost etc to the weapon is way better than adding an extra +1 to enhancement Is it as obvious as that? I've always been under the impression that most methods of getting ludicrous numbers of attacks involve most or all of them being at a penalty to-hit; I would think you'd want to maximize your chance of landing as many hits as possible.
Lina_Inverse 01-24-07, 02:48 AM	All right! Level three Fighter with his +1 longsword! Bring it on, monsters! Ignoring, of course, the fact that he likely has had a strength bonus of +2 to +4 since the beginning of the game and his level has added an additional +3 to hit... not counting if he takes the (even more worthless waste of a feat than the +1 is a waste of a weapon) Weapon Focus. The higher your attack bonus, the more valuable each additional point of attack bonus is. For +1to-hit to be equally valuable at all levels the to-hit formula would look something like this. To-hit*100/(To-hit+AC)=% chance to-hit. Formulas such as that don't happen in table top. As each +1to-hit is always a 5% greater chance to-hit, its value increases as you stack it on top of more % to-hit and more damage. Sooo... yeah... at least I can hurt some monsters... that I won't be meeting for several levels if I don't want to get severely thrashed... by which time I pray I'll have the good fortune to have a better weapon... perhaps a +2! Which, of course, is statistically... how much better than a +1? Several CR3 monsters have DR/magic. It is relevant at lvl3 when you should get one. Let's project somewhat farther... let's say you're a Grand Ole level 20, with your army of feats, followers, and (hopefully) enchanted items. Let's say you have a mighty +5 weapon! ...+5 to hit at level 20... +5 damage against monsters a level 20 is likely to face... waiiiit a second... +5 to-hit is always 25% increased chance to-hit no matter what. That means your Damage per round increases by 20% of its full potentiol no matter what. 20% of 100 DPR is 25 damage, 20% of 10 DPR is 2.5 damage. Frankly, I'd rather go with something that enhances damage only, or critical hits. Get to hit those icky monsters and do some REAL damage to boot. Or miss. As your missing 20% of all attacks over a +5 weapon. OF course, if you were REALLY smart you'd have a +1 weapon with lots of enchants, and cast GMW on it. But not counting GMW? The pluses will be superior from a min/max standpoint.
Sleepwalker13666 01-24-07, 04:54 AM	My ideal weapon is a +2 Vicous, keened greatsword.