Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 03:34 AM	Your mission if you chouse to accept it is to at 5th level (6th level Sorceror) with a straight caster single handedly take on a stone tower (Cheap Keep from Sword and Fist) manned by 25 level one orcs 5 2nd level orcs 2 3rd level lieutenants and 0ne 4th level captain. The keep is on top of a hill 30-ft. high and 100 ft. diameter. The hill is clear of all vegetation but grass 3 inches tall. 50 ft. from the base of the hill is a wood lot of small trees (1ft. diameter) 100-ft. square. You have one month or 4 weeks to prepare sounds easy? No using your spells per day allotment on the day you chose to attack may be higher than zero level. No scrolls, no wands, no potions. Must be within wealth per level guide lines. Do you have the brains?
IdleAltruism 01-10-07, 03:43 AM	Shrink object 7000 lbs of whatever(you can melt down sling bullets lots of things like that for under 200 gold). Smash the tower to little tiny bits during the day(orcs don't like the sunlight). Do I get a cookie?
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 03:50 AM	Shrink object 7000 lbs of whatever(you can melt down sling bullets lots of things like that for under 200 gold). Smash the tower to little tiny bits during the day(orcs don't like the sunlight). Do I get a cookie?You might if you can show how you "Smash it" How do you deliver your Shrink Item smasher?
runestar 01-10-07, 03:51 AM	Lets, see, if I went venerable dragonwrought kobold, I can get 7th lv sorc spellcasting after undergoing the ritual. That should help...:P
spectralphoenix 01-10-07, 03:55 AM	Cast Invisibility followed by levitate to sneak in. Use Suggestion on the captain to make him believe that there is treasure buried under the courtyard, and that he should assemble all his subordinates there to dig for it. Assuming he's statted like the one in the MM (plus class levels) he has a -1 will save, so he'll almost certainly fall for it. Than use Major Image to fake a fabulous treasure. Given their will saves, just about the entire garrison will fall for it. Use the audio component to suggest the nonbelievers just want it all for themselves. Throw in a few Orcish insults while you're at it. Watch the bodies hit the floor, then cast Sleep on the winner (everyone has <= 4 HD.)
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 03:56 AM	Cast Invisibility followed by levitate to sneak in. Use Suggestion on the captain to make him believe that there is treasure buried under the courtyard, and that he should assemble all his subordinates there to dig for it. Assuming he's statted like the one in the MM (plus class levels) he has a -1 will save, so he'll almost certainly fall for it. Than use Major Image to fake a fabulous treasure. Given their will saves, just about the entire garrison will fall for it. Use the audio component to suggest the nonbelievers just want it all for themselves. Throw in a few Orcish insults while you're at it. Watch the bodies hit the floor, then cast Sleep on the survivor. Nice but you broke the rules on casting in the day you attack.
spectralphoenix 01-10-07, 03:58 AM	Oh, so you're saying I can't cast spells on the day I attack? Guess I'll have to think it through some more.
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 03:59 AM	Oh, so you're saying I can't cast spells on the day I attack? Guess I'll have to think it through some more. Zero level spells only on the day you attack.
runestar 01-10-07, 04:01 AM	What if I attacked at night?:P
tarkin 01-10-07, 10:31 AM	4 weeks? Method 1: Spend the month previously, infiltrating the keep using invisibility, levitate etc. Once inside, cast Charm Person on people. Then, make actual friends with them. After 4 weeks of this, they should be your real friends, not just magical ones. Come the day of the attack, knock on the door and ask your friends, the 33 orcs to tear down the building. ================ Method 2: 1) Play a Sorceror of 6th level. 2) During the month before, go find 50 undead 3) Cast Command Undead on them, round them up. 4) 4 days before you attack, start casting Command Undead on them. You should end up with a nice solid army of 3*10 = 30 of them. 5) The night before your attack, get up early, and do it one more time and get 10 more. 6) Order the army of 40 undead to attack. Then collect them all up and have them
jaelis 01-10-07, 10:42 AM	If you're not allowed access to the keep at all until the day of the attack, use charm person in the previous 4 weeks to make good friends with a nearby army, and have the army do the fighting. (Like Tarkin's MII, but alive.)
mkill 01-10-07, 10:50 AM	What exactly is the point here? Get into the tower? Kill everybody? Is there anything in there? Why not just ignore the tower and do something useful that day? No using your spells per day allotment on the day you chose to attack may be higher than zero level. I've read that sentence 3 times now and I still don't get it. So I'm a mage but I can't use my spells? Then what's the point? Btw... Ancient Red Wyrm, take 6 sorcerer levels. I land in front of the tower. I eat every orc that runs in my direction. I win. I fly away, as I don't care much about orc towers anyway, except for the snacks that come running out.
Rulebook 01-10-07, 11:34 AM	so as soon as somebody finds a way to do it, and far easier than you hoped, its now illegal? didnt i play this in 2nd grade with all the variations of tag? i have the solution: play a Neutral Evil Wizard or Sorc (dont matter) get a couple scrolls of Cloudkill, and invisibly enter the fortress. proceed to throw the "rules" out the window, and win by any means convienent!
OravennasBrother 01-10-07, 12:24 PM	Your mission if you chouse to accept it is to at 5th level (6th level Sorceror) with a straight caster single handedly take on a stone tower (Cheap Keep from Sword and Fist) manned by 25 level one orcs 5 2nd level orcs 2 3rd level lieutenants and 0ne 4th level captain. The keep is on top of a hill 30-ft. high and 100 ft. diameter. The hill is clear of all vegetation but grass 3 inches tall. 50 ft. from the base of the hill is a wood lot of small trees (1ft. diameter) 100-ft. square. You have one month or 4 weeks to prepare sounds easy? No using your spells per day allotment on the day you chose to attack may be higher than zero level. No scrolls, no wands, no potions. Must be within wealth per level guide lines. Do you have the brains? Start with one of the nifty Elf Sub-races that get +2 Charisma and don't have a +ECL. I don't care about anything but charisma at any point (well he needs enough Int to come up with the scheme but...). I'm a Sorcerer, thus 6th level. I'm sixth level, thus I can have the Leadership Feat. I can, so I do. I can easily afford a Cloak of Charisma +2 My charisma is now 18 (begin) +2 (Elf Subrace) +2 (Cloak)+1 (Level 4) = 23, for a +6 modifier I have all the positive modifiers (great renown, base of operations etc) giving me a final leadership score of 18 which allows me the following followers 35 Level 1, 3 Level 2, 1 Level 3, and 1 level 4 I also get a Level 4 Cohort - I believe a Fighter is the Best option, since I'll guess you don't want me to have anyone ELSE using their spells for me on the day in question and a Paladin's special mount doesn't arrive until 5th level. I have a raven familiar. I also have (at 6th level) Enough money to purchase a Type VI necklace of fireballs. My 3rd level spell is Shrink Item (as someone mentioned before) though that MAY prove unnecessary. I have several pre-shrunk blocks of Lead/stone (each within the carrying capacity of my flying Owl Familiar - Owls can carry of a fair sized hare so say 2 lbs shrunk, or 8000 lbs full size) - at least 20 (4 per day for five days prior) I have my troops (all my followers are Elf Warriors with bows and Pavises) set up siege positions, then proceed, in the bright light of morning to bombard the castle with stones (Owl carries a shrunk stone above the tower at a height of 200', then the caster speaks the command word to end the spell with the resultant 4 ton rock falling 200 feet as if launched from the largest trebuchet ever imagined) until the orcs decide to sally or the Keep is smashed to pieces. Necklace of fireballs and Archery from the warrior followers wipes the orcs out before they can close to melee. Just in case the Fighter Cohort is a Mounted Combat specialist. Did not even have to cast a SINGLE cantrip on the day in question, and I'm within the wealth per level guidelines. Just in case you are tempted to change the rules as some have suggested, I quoted them in their current form.
mvincent 01-10-07, 12:39 PM	1) My preference is for an invisible, levitating (or flying) caster with a Tan bag of tricks. 2) Also, loads of Explosive runes (and maybe a Dispel magic ot two) can be effective. 3) If using a sorcerer, the cohort feat can be a big boost. 4) 1st level wands (obscuring mist, sleep, Charm Person, True strike, etc.) are cheap an can extend your options when facing a large force by yourself.
PhaedrusXY 01-10-07, 12:48 PM	You might if you can show how you "Smash it" How do you deliver your Shrink Item smasher?Use a sling. Don't just make one shrunken object. Make lots. Hire someone to fire them with the sling, and you dismiss the Shrink Object spell as soon as they leave the weapon. Of course, this depends on how the DM interprets momentum interacting with an object that suddenly increases its mass by a factor of several thousand. Since there is nothing in real life to compare this with, and the rules are silent, its pretty much up to DM whim (which isn't a very good thing to bet on with most DMs...).
IdleAltruism 01-10-07, 03:38 PM	You might if you can show how you "Smash it" How do you deliver your Shrink Item smasher? Familiar, throwing it. Mage hands? Theres lots of ways. I can get up to 5 that should be enough to destroy it using the familiar.
Fallenangel359 01-10-07, 03:56 PM	To toss the smasher? Throw it from your hand. Once it leaves your possession, it gains 4000x the volume and 2000x the mass. A 10ton stone ball would make a good choice. You can even make one by purchasing a wall of stone scroll, and shaping it as you wish. 10 ton ball will weigh 10 lb, which is 2/3rd the weight of a shotput in real life. Now load the thing into a small-sized trebuchet. Fire. Hit the tower at the base. The tower is destroyed by a 20000lb object flying through the base, collapsing all supports. Oh, and if you really want to have fun, if you allow casting on the day, make a shrink item stone disk. Get a scroll of fly. Fly above the tower, with the 100lb disk, which when you release it, it grows 2000x in mass, and 4000x in volume. Drop the disk, and it grows to 200000lb. It would smash the stone tower, utterly destroy it, break it to pieces, and kill everyone in it. If the disk has shrink item on it permancied, or as an enhancement bonus, then you can just reshrink it, which would make it fall even more into the rubble, and you expand it again, throwing out everyone thats still alive in the area, which will be no one, because this attack just did 1003 d6 damage, with a reflex save for half.
Mogofeiden 01-10-07, 04:42 PM	Well, here's my take. No spells>0, no scrolls, no potions, no wands. Orcs better than the wizard at melee and ranged, plus lots of them. I'd go with a wizard with craft Wondrous Item, the time limit is long enough to allow me to craft THE item and use my familiar/spells to scout the place meanwhile. I'd attack during the day, so I can have as many sleeping orcs as I can. I'd use ghost sound/prestidigitation and my familiar to create any necessary distractions come the day. I'd probably use mage hand and/or open/close at some point when necessary. The Item is... an Eversmoking Bottle. Smoke is a silent/scentless killer for those asleep. by the time they realize they're probably surrounded by the stuff and given the increasing DC and the concealment given by the smoke I'd have a pretty good chance to use the smoke cloud as a cloudkill. Check the Eversmoking Bottle and Smoke rules. I could certainly increase my odds with another Woundrous Item or two but the Eversmoking Bottle is the key. So... did I kill the orcs or not?
tarkin 01-10-07, 05:04 PM	The smoke is not invisible, the orcs on guard duty find your bottle and stop it up. Thanks for the gift. Hm. New Magic item: Bottle of invisible eversmoke
Reversefigure4 01-10-07, 05:15 PM	I use my 6th level wealth, as per the standard guidelines, to hire a party of adventurers to attack the keep and kill all the orcs, offering to pay them and tell them it had treasure inside they can keep too. No wands, scrolls, potions, or spells used. Just killing-based commerce, the staple of any DnD economy.
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 10:11 PM	4 weeks? Method 1: Spend the month previously, infiltrating the keep using invisibility, levitate etc. Once inside, cast Charm Person on people. Then, make actual friends with them. After 4 weeks of this, they should be your real friends, not just magical ones. Come the day of the attack, knock on the door and ask your friends, the 33 orcs to tear down the building. ================ Method 2: 1) Play a Sorceror of 6th level. 2) During the month before, go find 50 undead 3) Cast Command Undead on them, round them up. 4) 4 days before you attack, start casting Command Undead on them. You should end up with a nice solid army of 3*10 = 30 of them. 5) The night before your attack, get up early, and do it one more time and get 10 more. 6) Order the army of 40 undead to attack. Then collect them all up and have themMethod one You and your new friend might have to explane why you who maybe of another race are in the keep and what are you basing the relationship on? what would you have in common for a real friendship? Also I just don't see anyone tearing down their home for a best friend. Method 2 What level of undead is important are they mindless 1-2 or more hd? Skeletons and zombies vs a fortified position of strong fighters I don't think will win the day. Please develop it further. If you're not allowed access to the keep at all until the day of the attack, use charm person in the previous 4 weeks to make good friends with a nearby army, and have the army do the fighting. (Like Tarkin's MII, but alive.) You and and what you create in preparation as long as it doesn't contradict the rules posted against Scrolls wands and potions on the 24 hour period of your attack. You may enter and leave if your actions are harmless and the results undetectable. This is your task not your friends mission. What exactly is the point here? Get into the tower? Kill everybody? Is there anything in there? Why not just ignore the tower and do something useful that day? The point is to Kill the orcs alone with your spells for the day intact unused but for Zero lvl. By preparing tools and planning your attack you may destroy the keep as you like but think like an adventurer and the treasure that maybe lost. I've read that sentence 3 times now and I still don't get it. So I'm a mage but I can't use my spells? Then what's the point? Use your spells to make ahead of time for long lasting effects, undead slaves, Think of all the spells and things Wotc has published and use it. Btw... Ancient Red Wyrm, take 6 sorcerer levels. I land in front of the tower. I eat every orc that runs in my direction. I win. I fly away, as I don't care much about orc towers anyway, except for the snacks that come running out. Thats not what I was looking for consider it 5 to 6 HD and standard races only. 1 so as soon as somebody finds a way to do it, and far easier than you hoped, its now illegal? didnt i play this in 2nd grade with all the variations of tag? 2 i have the solution: play a Neutral Evil Wizard or Sorc (dont matter) get a couple scrolls of Cloudkill, and invisibly enter the fortress. proceed to throw the "rules" out the window, and win by any means convienent! 1 What I did was set up rules of engaugement that preculded certain options as they make it a walk in the park, slam dunk any twit can do it. Without the specific "WAY" in question that I ruled illegal I can't anwser that. 2 Whatever, you don't have what it takes to do something in game without directly casting spells at foes so be it. Start with one of the nifty Elf Sub-races that get +2 Charisma and don't have a +ECL. I don't care about anything but charisma at any point (well he needs enough Int to come up with the scheme but...). I'm a Sorcerer, thus 6th level. I'm sixth level, thus I can have the Leadership Feat. I can, so I do. I can easily afford a 1Cloak of Charisma +2 My charisma is now 18 (begin) +2 (Elf Subrace) +2 (Cloak)+1 (Level 4) = 23, for a +6 modifier I have all the positive modifiers (2 great renown, 3 base of operations etc) giving me a final leadership score of 18 which allows me the following followers 35 Level 1, 3 Level 2, 1 Level 3, and 1 level 4 I also get a Level 4 Cohort - I believe a Fighter is the Best option, since I'll guess you don't want me to have anyone ELSE using their spells for me on the day in question and a Paladin's special mount doesn't arrive until 5th level. I have a raven familiar. I also have (at 6th level) Enough money to purchase a 4 Type VI necklace of fireballs. My 3rd level spell is Shrink Item (as someone mentioned before) though that MAY prove unnecessary. I have several pre-shrunk blocks of Lead/stone (each within the carrying capacity of my flying Owl Familiar - Owls can carry of a fair sized hare so say 2 lbs shrunk, or 8000 lbs full size) - at least 20 (4 per day for five days prior) I have my troops (all my followers are Elf Warriors with bows and5 Pavises) set up siege positions, then proceed, in the bright light of morning to bombard the castle with stones (Owl carries a shrunk stone above the tower 6 at a height of 200', then the caster speaks the command word to end the spell with the resultant 4 ton rock falling 200 feet as if launched from the largest trebuchet ever imagined) until the orcs decide to sally or the Keep is smashed to pieces. Necklace of fireballs and Archery from the warrior followers wipes the orcs out before they can close to melee. Just in case the Fighter Cohort is a Mounted Combat specialist. Did not even have to cast a SINGLE cantrip on the day in question, and 7 I'm within the wealth per level guidelines. 8Just in case you are tempted to change the rules as some have suggested, I quoted them in their current form. 1Cloak of Char 4,000 gp. 2Great Renown IRC (correct me if wrong) begins at 11th level. 3A base of operations would count against your wealth limits and Cheap Keeps cost 75,000 gp so what kind of base can you get with 9 to 13 thousand after buying Cloaks and an 8,100 gp Type 6 Fireball neacklace? 4 Your over your gp limit by quit a bit. 5What is Pavises? and how did you get them? 6IRC (correct me if wrong) you need to be within 60 ft. of an object or creature too command it as it must Hear you ( sound waves metaphisical wacky stuff) with its listen skill and bonus of zero. 7 perhaps I totaled it badly but I don't think so. 8 I am not going to change the rules but for those who would add monster HD/lvls and violate the spirit of the contest don't bother. 1) My preference is for an invisible, levitating (or flying) caster with a Tan bag of tricks. 2) Also, loads of Explosive runes (and maybe a Dispel magic ot two) can be effective. 3) If using a sorcerer, the cohort feat can be a big boost. 4) 1st level wands (obscuring mist, sleep, Charm Person, True strike, etc.) are cheap an can extend your options when facing a large force by yourself.Sounds like it has possabilitys but no wands and so on. Spell out your tactics and lets see. 1 Use a sling. Don't just make one shrunken object. Make lots. Hire someone to fire them with the sling, and you dismiss the Shrink Object spell as soon as they leave the weapon. Of course, this depends on how the DM interprets momentum interacting with an object that suddenly increases its mass by a factor of several thousand. Since there is nothing in real life to compare this with, and the rules are silent, its pretty much up to DM whim (which isn't a very good thing to bet on with most DMs...).1 My dm and I go with momentum is conserved so they would fall in front of the slinger. also untill otherwise proven (please if anyone knows tell us) command words have a 60 ft. range limit. Familiar, throwing it. Mage hands? Theres lots of ways. I can get up to 5 that should be enough to destroy it using the familiar. I just want it writen out not assumed to be or too happen without HOW, Why and Where the attack is directed. 1 To toss the smasher? Throw it from your hand. Once it leaves your possession, it gains 4000x the volume and 2000x the mass. A 10ton stone ball would make a good choice. You can even make one by purchasing a wall of stone scroll, and shaping it as you wish. 2 10 ton ball will weigh 10 lb, which is 2/3rd the weight of a shotput in real life. Now load the thing into a small-sized trebuchet. Fire. Hit the tower at the base. The tower is destroyed by a 20000lb object flying through the base, collapsing all supports. 3 Oh, and if you really want to have fun, if you allow casting on the day, make a shrink item stone disk. Get a scroll of fly. Fly above the tower, with the 100lb disk, which when you release it, it grows 2000x in mass, and 4000x in volume. Drop the disk, and it grows to 200000lb. It would smash the stone tower, utterly destroy it, break it to pieces, and kill everyone in it. If the disk has shrink item on it permancied, or as an enhancement bonus, then you can just reshrink it, which would make it fall even more into the rubble, and you expand it again, throwing out everyone thats still alive in the area, which will be no one, because this attack just did 1003 d6 damage, with a reflex save for half. 1 Toss it from where? if it gained the mass and size the moment it leaves it drops to the ground if not thrown objects have 10 ft. range increaments and you max out at 50 ft. Mage Hands is Close range spell same distance problem this leaves you moving up to the Keep and standing in sight of the enemy. 2 Energy is conserved you would do normal damage and a realy big stone would roll down hill. 3 No scrolls. Well, here's my take. No spells>0, no scrolls, no potions, no wands. Orcs better than the wizard at melee and ranged, plus lots of them. I'd go with a wizard with craft Wondrous Item, the time limit is long enough to allow me to craft THE item and use my familiar/spells to scout the place meanwhile. I'd attack during the day, so I can have as many sleeping orcs as I can. I'd use ghost sound/prestidigitation and my familiar to create any necessary distractions come the day. I'd probably use mage hand and/or open/close at some point when necessary. The Item is... an Eversmoking Bottle. Smoke is a silent/scentless killer for those asleep. by the time they realize they're probably surrounded by the stuff and given the increasing DC and the concealment given by the smoke I'd have a pretty good chance to use the smoke cloud as a cloudkill. Check the Eversmoking Bottle and Smoke rules. I could certainly increase my odds with another Woundrous Item or two but the Eversmoking Bottle is the key. So... did I kill the orcs or not?Your thinking CO2 The DMG says Ever Smoking Bottels makes smoke that totaly obscures vision. You could certinly Smoke them out of the Keep and get close to the Keep using the EB but you need a way to breath or avoid the smoke and kill the orcs. The smoke is not invisible, the orcs on guard duty find your bottle and stop it up. Thanks for the gift. Hm. New Magic item: Bottle of invisible eversmoke In the discription of the EB If he keeps the cork the EB can't be stoppered and the smoke continues to billow out. I use my 6th level wealth, as per the standard guidelines, to hire a party of adventurers to attack the keep and kill all the orcs, offering to pay them and tell them it had treasure inside they can keep too. No wands, scrolls, potions, or spells used. Just killing-based commerce, the staple of any DnD economy. And all of that was not done by you so your character just did nothing but be a patron of adventurers with zero effort and zero reward.
Seerow 01-10-07, 10:29 PM	So your challenge is to use no items specific to sorcerers, no spells, no preparation, recon, and scouting (all the main things of being a spellcaster), and setting them against something and saying "Beat it" Why not just stick a commoner in instead? It'd prove the same thing. I get the feeling you have a very specific answer that you came up with, and thought yourself very clever for coming up with it, and are now upset that people are coming up with other ways to deal with the problem.
Reversefigure4 01-10-07, 11:33 PM	And all of that was not done by you so your character just did nothing but be a patron of adventurers with zero effort and zero reward. Since I take it you've never heard the phrase "Moving the Goalposts", I suggest you edit the following sentence into your OP: "There is one, and only one, specific way of doing this. Anyone who does not find this way and thinks up another creative solution that would work has failed the challenge. Basically, it's a game of 'read my mind'. Have fun." You might also want to stat out the sorc, or at least give him a race, and what book restrictions there are for finding spells, if you want people to hit on your answer. To answer your original challenge, no, I do not have the brains to read your mind and work out what the "right" answer is.
Iver Gearsham 01-10-07, 11:51 PM	1So your challenge is to use no items specific to sorcerers, no spells, no preparation, recon, and scouting (all the main things of being a spellcaster), and setting them against something and saying "Beat it" Why not just stick a commoner in instead? It'd prove the same thing. 2 I get the feeling you have a very specific answer that you came up with, and thought yourself very clever for coming up with it, and are now upset that people are coming up with other ways to deal with the problem. 1 What are you talking about with sorcerors? I said No wands, scrolls or potions that hardly singles out sorcerer’s items. And I said you could do all the scouting and prep you want for four weeks you just have to pick when you start killing or destroying the Keep and that ends your prep time. Example Shrink Item tons of boulders and pools of flaming oil Sneak in Invisible Hide for 24 hours use Architecture Engineering skill place boulders in strategic places to overwhelm interior supports having timed the duration of the Shrink Item boulders/Pools go to a window wait for it to begin creaking and groaning fire and smoke billowing out of control activate a Shrink Itemed ladder and climb down before the Keep falls in on it's self. That’s an Ok example not perfect it has more than a few flaws like finishing off survivors but I want to hear your guys ideas not my own. 2 People are coming up with great ideas and some break the rules or they have no clear means of delivery. Many have potential but lack follow through like mine how am I going to finish off the orc survivors? I just want a clear plan of what to make, what spells you prep with who and what you direct your actions against. The spirit of the rules suggests no one shot character builds using the 9,000 too 13,000 gp starting wealth rules focused for this one goal. I would like to see a real character build one you could take on many types of adventures.
Vorpal_Bunny 01-10-07, 11:57 PM	You could cast improved invisiblity at 11:59 go into the tower poison the water and food, then wait for the orcs to just die off. You also could summon mosters and have them attack, technically you are not attacking. Kill as many of the orcs as you can since there are a limited number of them. You could get within shouting distance and lure them out of the tower and kill the orcs that way. They attacked you, so you can use spells whenever you want.
Reversefigure4 01-10-07, 11:57 PM	I would like to see a real character build one you could take on many types of adventures. But... with the conditions you've set out, it's not a real character build anyway! What sort of straight caster build doesn't use spells when he's attacking things, or for no reason restricts himself to a "nothing but cantrips today" policy?
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 12:09 AM	Since I take it you've never heard the phrase "Moving the Goalposts", I suggest you edit the following sentence into your OP: "There is one, and only one, specific way of doing this. Anyone who does not find this way and thinks up another creative solution that would work has failed the challenge. Basically, it's a game of 'read my mind'. Have fun." You might also want to stat out the sorc, or at least give him a race, and what book restrictions there are for finding spells, if you want people to hit on your answer. To answer your original challenge, no, I do not have the brains to read your mind and work out what the "right" answer is.I am not advancing the Goal Posts The rules are there from the start they have not changed. People ether didn't read them all or forgot one or two as they formulated their plans. I just pointed out where they when off track. Some of them just palm off the work others wow such geniuses who cares about lazy ":zzz: Hero's " Next time an informent tells your party about the Evil cult who's going to sink the city into the sea and where they can be found she can get the EXP money and Key to the City as its savior after you kill them all and foil their plan won't that be great? After all she showed you where they were right? :noway:
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 12:26 AM	1 But... with the conditions you've set out, it's not a real character build anyway! 2 What sort of straight caster build doesn't use spells when he's attacking things, or 3 for no reason restricts himself to a "nothing but cantrips today" policy? I don't need to see a build, stats, persay just legal skill and spell availability you can build any way you like just no PUN PUN type char op bull. 1 It is not a build it is can your char do it or not or how would you get it done. 2 The kind of caster who can last more than 3 to 4 fights when he has a party too work with. 3 Ever try and see how long you can hold you breath? how far you can push some aspect of your life or the world all on your own? A Japanis samuri IRC named Mushahi at the hight of his prowess would fight duels to the death with a wooden sword IRC he fought many duels that way and died of old age.
Morgotho 01-11-07, 12:29 AM	Iver, spellcasters cast spells, its what they do. If you would prefer somebody tried beating your scenario without it, why even mention a caster class to begin with? There's got to be a million different ways to beat your scenario anyway, so long as the PC is working with a DM that doesn't insist on following his own railroad tracks he set. As an example, alchemy can do some wonderful things at those levels, and a character using it isn't technically using magic or magic items either. Now why a sorceror would spend all his wealth purchasing one shot alchemical items when he could easily cast a few spells to beat an encounter is beyond me...
spectralphoenix 01-11-07, 12:36 AM	Can we use scrolls/wands/potions before we attack?
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 12:45 AM	Morgotho;11146534]Iver, spellcasters cast spells, its what they do. If you would prefer somebody tried beating your scenario without it, why even mention a caster class to begin with? Because a caster can do it using their skills and spell abilitys. Caster are generaly not viewed as being able to take on lots combat without casting spells in that combat. There's got to be a million different ways to beat your scenario anyway, so long as the PC is working with a DM that doesn't insist on following his own railroad tracks he set. I agree there are lots of ways but which ones can your caster character do? 5th lvl mage 6th lvl sorceror or class equivalient. As an example, alchemy can do some wonderful things at those levels, and a character using it isn't technically using magic or magic items either. Now why a sorceror would spend all his wealth purchasing one shot alchemical items when he could easily cast a few spells to beat an encounter is beyond me... Not all magic items are banned only three types and then only for the battle. Alchemy can do it but there are other options.
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 12:46 AM	Can we use scrolls/wands/potions before we attack? If it is 24 hours before yes.
spectralphoenix 01-11-07, 01:08 AM	All right Sorceror lvl 6 Feats: Spell Focus: Necromancy Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Equipment: Scroll of Create Greater Undead (CL 16) 3,200 gp Scroll of Forcecage 2,275 gp Preparation: Use the scroll of Create Greater Undead to create a wraith, then Forcecage it with the other scroll and wait until daytime. Cast Expeditious Retreat on yourself, then dismiss the cage. While the wraith is suffering daylight powerlessness, cast Command Undead on it. You can outrun it and it can't attack you, so you can take several tries if necessary (it's odds of saving are fairly low anyway.) Execution: The Command Undead spell lasts for six days, so you can wait until the next night. Tell the wraith about the orc fortress and suggest it start attacking the common soldiers and work it's way up. Assuming the common soldiers can't affect the wraith (they almost certainly don't have magic weapons) and it can kill them with a single negative level, it should soon have 25 more wraiths under it's command. These can easily swarm the higher ups even if they have magic weaponry.
Morgotho 01-11-07, 01:30 AM	I agree there are lots of ways but which ones can your caster character do? 5th lvl mage 6th lvl sorceror or class equivalient. There have already been a number of valid ways to beat the encounter listed in this thread. Hirelings, flying familiars and pre-shrunk items, bluff/diplomacy on the guards, fireball necklaces, and alchemical items each handle the encounter without resorting to spellcasting on the day of. Heck, with the wording of your challenge, a straight 5th level warlock, traditionally viewed as a caster, would see your spells/day restriction as meaningless with his unlimited use SLAs. I expect that Eldritch Spear and Summon Swarm would be pretty useful invocations in such a situation. Such a warlock could easily start blasting at sentries from within the trees and use a swarm to occupy melee combatants.
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 03:58 AM	All right Sorceror lvl 6 Feats: Spell Focus: Necromancy Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy Equipment: Scroll of Create Greater Undead (CL 16) 3,200 gp Scroll of Forcecage 2,275 gp That will work just fine :cookie: but you spent over 1/3rd your Sorceror's worth when you did not have to. Lets see if others can pull it off without spending lots of GP. Morgotho Quote: There have already been a number of valid ways to beat the encounter listed in this thread. There have been a number of good starts that stalled on a few points or were not clear in application they just used broad terms. I asked them to improve or develop those ideas further and fix where they broke the rules for this chalenge. 1 Hirelings, 2 flying familiars and 3 pre-shrunk items, 4 bluff/diplomacy on the guards, 5 fireball necklaces, and 6 alchemical items each handle the encounter without resorting to spellcasting on the day of. 1What part of "Single Handedly" entails getting others to do things for you? I am under the impression that it means you do things for yourself am I wrong? 2Flying familiars are a solid part of any plan and should be used but they base their attack on an unlimited distance they could command the shrunk items from. 3Not all uses of Pre-Shrunk items were vaild. Some were ok they just didn't show how they would use them. 4If your "best friend" comes over to your house then he asks you to light it on fire and you do I want to know how and what that smooth talking S,O,B said Not just a skill roll thats bull and boring. 5For a 5th lvl mage that's 9/10ths of all the wealth he should have and nearly as bad for a sorceror that makes them not a real PC just a cardboard cut out one shot wonders. 6Alchemical item I was fine with to but again no clear statement of use I,E, Seal the door with a Tangle foot bag pour Acid and A-Fire on the roof till it melts & burns them all Smoke Sticks to hide you. or something like that. Heck, with the wording of your challenge, a straight 5th level warlock, traditionally viewed as a caster, would see your spells/day restriction as meaningless with his1 unlimited use SLAs. I expect that Eldritch Spear and Summon Swarm would be pretty useful invocations in such a situation. Such a warlock could easily start blasting at sentries from within the trees and use a swarm to occupy melee combatants. 1 SLA stands for Spell Like Ability Thus no. If you count as a caster then you get the same restricions. Any of those invocations zero level SLA's?
Rulebook 01-11-07, 07:40 AM	all right, whats your solution then?
Radiun 01-11-07, 09:12 AM	That will work just fine :cookie: but you spent over 1/3rd your Sorceror's worth when you did not have to. Didn't he just spend ~5,475gp taking over a 75,000gp keep? Seems like a good deal to me as he gets a bit less than 1400% return on his money.
GraveDigger 01-11-07, 09:23 AM	Iver, spellcasters cast spells, its what they do. If you would prefer somebody tried beating your scenario without it, why even mention a caster class to begin with? There's got to be a million different ways to beat your scenario anyway, so long as the PC is working with a DM that doesn't insist on following his own railroad tracks he set. As an example, alchemy can do some wonderful things at those levels, and a character using it isn't technically using magic or magic items either. Now why a sorceror would spend all his wealth purchasing one shot alchemical items when he could easily cast a few spells to beat an encounter is beyond me... Amen! :duel: :duel:
nephsytis 01-11-07, 09:27 AM	ive got one. buy a ring of sustenance, a spade, flint and tinder and a couple copper pieces of firewood. tunnel below the tower working 22 hours a day for however long it takes light a fire beneath its supports, tower collapses and all orcs get horribly crushed by the imploding tower. did i do good?
Llathos 01-11-07, 09:45 AM	I really like the wraith command idea. It's the most elegant thus far, leaves little mess (aside from 30 wraiths...), leaves the keep intact, and risks none of the treasure. It's the best solution thus far and frankly, completely solves the little "puzzle" you've set out. The annoying part is your random response "Oh...well that spent a significant amount of your wealth...so..uh do better". He performed within the rules and accomplished the goal. If you have a better idea, post it.
Mogofeiden 01-11-07, 10:19 AM	Oh! Rules are for fools. A Japanese samuri IRC named Mushahi at the hight of his prowess would fight duels to the death with a wooden sword IRC he fought many duels that way and died of old age. If you're quoting samurais, I'll point you to one samurai (who wrote a strategy book, sadly I'm very bad with names but you can search for it; I wouldn't be surpsised if it was musashi; incidently fighting a duel with a wooden sword would've been a sign of disrespect thus angering his opponents and making them prone to mistakes) famous for his skill with the sword and his duels and also famous for not respecting any rules that were not convenient to him, thus exhasperating his opponents and winning (it wans't so much his skill with the sword as his skill in psicology and deception). I'll just add, that a mage who is caught unprepared or one who finds himself without spells deserves to die. Thus, one who takes on a keep at less than full strength deserves to die. I think that if the OP is looking for a detailed (step by step) plan, our mages are going to want to know the result of their scouting, with a more detailed layout of the keep (like sentry posts and sleeping areas, door types, wall types, floor/ceiling types, how many rooms/corridors/windows/doors and their size) and if there's any structural weaknesses in the keep (by the way, my wizards always put at least 1 rank in every knowledge skill). The weather conditions (wind/precipitation/temperature) and season would be nice as well. Otherwise, who's to say you're not moving the goal posts simply by suplying just the bare information. If you're looking to know that we know... scouting can be accomplished through familiars, clairvoyance, invisibility, gaseous form, etc... On the Eversmoking Bottle, I could take an air genasi mage, since they're breathless they're not affected by the smoke (other than the concealment). Also, I'll point everyone to Javelins of Lightning. Now you can kill those orcs mage style, it doesn't require attack rolls (so proficiency is not relevant) from the mage (hell! if you go with a human wizard you could give him quickdraw, point blank shot and rapid shot for a quicker finish and still get Craft Magic Arms & Armour), Just make sure to pick a spot that maximizes the number of targets. Another option: assassinate the leader and let them fight each other over who takes over. [Feel free to come with variations on this] I'd infiltrate the keep, using gaseous form and invisibility, hide in the leader's quarters (who'll probably have a room just for himself) using rope trick, wait until he's sleeping and coup de grace him with a sythe. Make my way out of the keep or hide in it if there's a place to do it. Now, if the orc's personality and culture is anything to go by, a power struggle would ensue between the lower ranks and, hopefully, they'd kill each other or disband. [Feel free to come with variations on this] Finish off any winners/survivors with the javelins of lightning, the eversmoking bottle or alchemist fire air bombardment (using your hawk/owl/raven familiar). or whatever. I'm looking forward to the OP's solution.
WinDReiN 01-11-07, 10:24 AM	The idea is great and everything, but how can a 6'th lvl sor cast lvl 7 & lvl 8 spell? Shouldn't he have to beat the caster lvl check?
revaar 01-11-07, 10:56 AM	The idea is great and everything, but how can a 6'th lvl sor cast lvl 7 & lvl 8 spell? Shouldn't he have to beat the caster lvl check? yes, but beating a DC of at most 16 isn't hard when you are 6th level, heck, it's a roll of ten. also, question for the OP, where are you getting your rule of 60' for the limit to command words? cause i can't find that any where.
Toptomcat 01-11-07, 11:46 AM	A mundane, more practicable, and much more difficult to counter version of the 'Eversmoking bottle' trick: 1. Optionally, spend much of your starting gold on lantern oil and a vial of alchemist's fire. 2. Spend most of the prep time repeatedly casting Grease on the surrounding forest. 3. Optionally, spend the last day or so comprehensively soaking the surrounding forest with your lantern oil. 4. Toss the vial of alchemist's fire at a tree and run like hell. Watch as the orks are smothered by the smoke of the resulting forest fire. By the time the lantern oil and grease burns out, it'll be self-sustaining.
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 11:49 AM	Didn't he just spend ~5,475gp taking over a 75,000gp keep? Seems like a good deal to me as he gets a bit less than 1400% return on his money. Soon as he can rid it of all the Shades and Wraiths he made ya.
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 11:51 AM	ive got one. buy a ring of sustenance, a spade, flint and tinder and a couple copper pieces of firewood. tunnel below the tower working 22 hours a day for however long it takes light a fire beneath its supports, tower collapses and all orcs get horribly crushed by the imploding tower. did i do good? That would take a realy longe time but sure :cookie:
Morgotho 01-11-07, 12:19 PM	What part of "Single Handedly" entails getting others to do things for you? I am under the impression that it means you do things for yourself am I wrong? The same part that allows one to prepare undead during the days before or to use a familiar in battle. The Player single-handedly defeated your tower, the Character sought out a little help. For a 5th lvl mage that's 9/10ths of all the wealth he should have and nearly as bad for a sorceror that makes them not a real PC just a cardboard cut out one shot wonders. Considering the fact that your challenge has just as much real game play meaning as a one shot character, I'd certainly be willing to consider it. If your "best friend" comes over to your house then he asks you to light it on fire and you do I want to know how and what that smooth talking S,O,B said Not just a skill roll thats bull and boring. But if your best friend (check out Dust of Illusion in the DMG. you don't just have to look like some crazy adventurer you know) came over and told you about a wicked party going on down in the city and suggested you head over there before you miss out, then we might be talking about an empty or near empty house just waiting to be lit on fire. SLA stands for Spell Like Ability Thus no. If you count as a caster then you get the same restricions. Any of those invocations zero level SLA's? Because a caster can do it using their skills and spell abilitys. Seeing as how your restrictions limit spells per day, a warlock has no spells per day, and in one of your own responses you are allowing spell abilities, you might just want to think your responses through a little more clearly. Besides, not everybody is going to go through the tower wearing a box thinking it'll make them invincible.
spectralphoenix 01-11-07, 12:44 PM	Soon as he can rid it of all the Shades and Wraiths he made ya. All of whom are under the direct or indirect control of the original wraith, who is still affected by my Command Undead spell.
Iver Gearsham 01-11-07, 12:55 PM	Mogofeiden;11148889 Oh! Rules are for fools. If you're quoting samurais, I'll point you to one samurai (who wrote a strategy book, sadly I'm very bad with names but you can search for it; I wouldn't be surpsised if it was musashi; incidently fighting a duel with a wooden sword would've been a sign of disrespect thus angering his opponents and making them prone to mistakes) famous for his skill with the sword and his duels and also famous for not respecting any rules that were not convenient to him, thus exhasperating his opponents and winning (it wans't so much his skill with the sword as his skill in psicology and deception). He wrote the Book of Five Rings I'll just add, that a mage who is caught unprepared or one who finds himself without spells deserves to die. Thus, one who takes on a keep at less than full strength deserves to die. The point is to be prepared and able to keep your spells while kicking foes to the curb. I think that if the OP is looking for a detailed (step by step) plan, our mages are going to want to know the result of their scouting, with a more detailed layout of the keep (like sentry posts and sleeping areas, door types, wall types, floor/ceiling types, how many rooms/corridors/windows/doors and their size) and if there's any structural weaknesses in the keep (by the way, my wizards always put at least 1 rank in every knowledge skill). The weather conditions (wind/precipitation/temperature) and season would be nice as well. Otherwise, who's to say you're not moving the goal posts simply by suplying just the bare information. If you're looking to know that we know... That why I used the cheap keep from a supliment (human boarded tower sword and fist. cheap keep stronghold builder's guide book) so most everyone could look at it with pictuers level by level on their own without typeing forever. scouting can be accomplished through familiars, clairvoyance, invisibility, gaseous form, etc... Yep no problem with that done by others. On the Eversmoking Bottle, I could take an air genasi mage, since they're breathless they're not affected by the smoke (other than the concealment). They have a level adjustment plus 1 so you would have to buy the Javilins of Lighting and be unable to cast third level spells but other wise good to go! Also, I'll point everyone to Javelins of Lightning. Now you can kill those orcs mage style, it doesn't require attack rolls (so proficiency is not relevant) from the mage (hell! if you go with a human wizard you could give him quickdraw, point blank shot and rapid shot for a quicker finish and still get Craft Magic Arms & Armour), Just make sure to pick a spot that maximizes the number of targets. That's a good offense how many javilins are you going to use? 1,500 gp a shot there not cheap. How are you seeing through the smoke? What are you doing to keep from becoming a pin cushion if they can see you? Another option: assassinate the leader and let them fight each other over who takes over. [Feel free to come with variations on this] I'd infiltrate the keep, using gaseous form and invisibility, hide in the leader's quarters (who'll probably have a room just for himself) using rope trick, wait until he's sleeping and coup de grace him with a sythe. Make my way out of the keep or hide in it if there's a place to do it. Now, if the orc's personality and culture is anything to go by, a power struggle would ensue between the lower ranks and, hopefully, they'd kill each other or disband. It is possable but it has many variables like how lucky you get with the Move Silently skill check to get close and CDG the leader and then the power struggle maybe short and swift with the next leader more alert traps prepared and the like. [Feel free to come with variations on this] Finish off any winners/survivors with the javelins of lightning, the eversmoking bottle or alchemist fire air bombardment (using your hawk/owl/raven familiar). or whatever. Just keep in mind it can become a target when you send your familiar to attack. :cookie: for multipul efforts that may work. I'm looking forward to the OP's solution. Sure I'll fire off and you guys can crack it open and show me a few things But I have to finnish writing a paper for collage and will post later tonight I hope. revaar also, question for the OP, where are you getting your rule of 60' for the limit to command words? cause i can't find that any where. Glowing Orb, Golems, so on got to go
OravennasBrother 01-11-07, 01:14 PM	1What part of "Single Handedly" entails getting others to do things for you? I am under the impression that it means you do things for yourself am I wrong? Well by the Rules on granting XP fro encounters those individuals granted by the Leadership Feat DO NOT get XP, so yes it IS a SINGLE PC taking out the Fortification. Technically you could also manage with a (Standard Race) Elf Sorcerer, his Owl Familiar, a Longbow and (lots of) Arrows, a Necklace of Fireballs, some pre-shrunk multiton weights, and a Mount. Orcs have melee weapons, you have a Longbow. Orcs move 20' in thier armor, 30' without. You have a Horse. The Tower crumbles under repeated strikes from the rocks. I can yell loud enough to be heard from a half mile (880 yards) without difficulty, more than far enough for my command word (a different one for each stone) to work. BTW the Author of "The Book of Five Rings" is Miyamoto Musashi.
Lokiyn 01-11-07, 01:22 PM	good lord this is simple. Get a Ballista Done.
Mogofeiden 01-11-07, 05:01 PM	I haven't got sword and fist but found the cheap keep in Stronghold builders. Now, I know what I'm up against. The javelins of lightning are half price using Craft Magic Arms and Armour. Siege weapons need to be defended and they take their time.
Witchcraft 01-11-07, 05:05 PM	[QUOTE=Morgotho;11146534]Iver, spellcasters cast spells, its what they do. If you would prefer somebody tried beating your scenario without it, why even mention a caster class to begin with? QUOTE] Mhm, dont lable it Could your Mage win? Because my mage casts spells, that is what she does. :-P
epifreak 01-11-07, 05:38 PM	2 The kind of caster who can last more than 3 to 4 fights when he has a party too work with. Maybe this is just me, but attempting to take a well defended keep single-handedly definitely trips my nova instinct. I'm relatively certain that this constitutes a definitive encounter for the day. For that matter, if I've got a party to work with, why am I dealing with this single-handedly BS anyway? You might as well have restricted it to a fighter taking the keep without making an attack roll.
Mogofeiden 01-11-07, 06:02 PM	You might as well have restricted it to a fighter taking the keep without making an attack roll. Anyone's game for that :P ? The OP's solution better be good, better not be a bluff. I await in dreaded anticipation to being illuminated by a superior intelect. 'cause mind reading is haaard game. Still... I'm always up for a challenge. (no ofense meant by this post)
T_Stalker 01-11-07, 07:38 PM	Okay, since the Cheap Keep only has one entrance and one exit, this makes it easier. Wizard 5. Four days before the attack, shrink two shiploads of lamp oil. Make an Explosive Notes poster. Shrink that too. Pour the shiploads into several individual containers. Which would obviously be too small to hold the unshrunken oil. Use the next few days to set these at various points of the keep. (Use whatever methods suit the char,cast sleep on some guards, disguise self, charm on another guard, hand him a gift, gaseous form through one of the arrows slits, ...) This could actually be the most fun part as you get to know the people your going to kill in a most horrifying manner. (Be sure to have some in the hallways, the rooms that have a door to the courtyard and the staircase, if possible. In the hallway, next to a vial, hang up the really, really small explosive notes poster. Go to the nearest town, do whatever it is you do, buy a ballista, some more oil or a bunch of tanglefoot bags, whatever's your flavour. Go back the night before you attack, cast Arcane Lock on the barbican. Maybe pour some dust of dryness in the well. If you timed your casting of Shrink Item on the Explosive Note poster and you hung it up in a suitably busy area, your character should have pretty good idea of when to use whatever items he got left to keep everybody inside. Or put some more oil in the well, it's actually within 60 feet shouting distance from the barbican. If orcs come out to get water from it ... Perhaps put on a prestidigation to hide the smell of oil. Originally I just thought it could be a cool firetower. (Thought is was indoors too, but that's another matter. It would be even cooler if you shrunk some campfires orso, give them to some of the orcs as lucky amulets. Those would off course need to have about the same timing. Too bad about the property damage though.
Iver Gearsham 01-12-07, 04:38 AM	This whole thread was to promote out of the box thinking with a few guide lines to try and prevent bull like I hire a an adventuring party to kill them all look at me didn't I sweat pulling that off! Or I am a big fat dragon I’ll just fart on the keep and eat them up as they run out! Wow what a waste! Or I throw 10,000 plus gp of resources at the problem and poof it’s gone! Anybody can throw huge money at a problem and get results or start with Monstrous overwhelming firepower and win hands down Who cares? That’s not a real win. Many people had fine ideas but skipped points like how to approach unseen, How to stay hidden in a very bare bones Spartan keep, Why all of them should just accept new individuals in their small community without question? Assumed that just because their orcs and your their "Special Friend" you can just ask them to destroy their home leave it empty and unguarded without giving a good reason why they should. Leadership is ok they are a part of you I was objecting to the use of resources that should count against his Character wealth level such as the Base of Operations, and the fact that he is responsible to equip his followers. epifreak Maybe this is just me, but attempting to take a well defended keep single-handedly definitely trips my nova instinct. I'm relatively certain that this constitutes a definitive encounter for the day. For that matter, if I've got a party to work with, why am I dealing with this single-handedly BS anyway? Why is it that Everyone of the Nay sayers just wants to cast their spells? Or pass the buck? Tuck tail and run? As a mage/caster you have few spells to cast in a day and once spent your done you typically get to stand around Aiding another or plink away with a crossbow do some other minor task or nag your party into leaving the conflict for 24 hours for you to regain spells. I say you should Learn how you can stretch your abilities use less spells per conflict adapt Standard magic items (preferably Constant, Command Word, Renewable Perday or Continuous) to new and effective uses. I am amazed at the foot dragging and whining but I want to F_F_Fireball them! why can't I Fireball them? Because this is about long term engagement combat not a 5 round phantasmagoria and oh yea and we will be back tomorrow so please drop your drawers when we do and please act supprised! Witchcraft Mhm, dont lable it Could your Mage win? Because my mage casts spells, that is what she does. :-P But is that all? Can you do more can you be more? I say yes. Mogofeiden I haven't got sword and fist but found the cheap keep in Stronghold builders. Now, I know what I'm up against. The javelins of lightning are half price using Craft Magic Arms and Armor. But you took a level adjustment race that makes him a 4th level caster as a mage and unable to take a feat that requires a 5th lvl caster so your down to second level spells if a sorcerer and can't Craft Arms and Armor for weapons that need 3rd level spells without buy and using scrolls that will cost you about what you would save for making it yourself. Siege weapons need to be defended and they take their time. Indeed. Through out this thread there are great ideas that can be combined to solve this and may other conflicts For Example the Eversmoking Bottle and the Undead army of 50 (Tarkin didn't mention what kind) Stick the ESB in or on one of them order them all to "March around the Keep and attack all living beings but me." The ESB's 50 ft. a round smoke cloud grants the Undead 50%miss chance from attacks so most if not all should get up to the Keep and survive a long time under Ranged Attacks. The Dc 15 Fort save per round that increases by 1 for every round they are in the smoke if they fail as save they choke and can do nothing but a Move action per round if they fail two rounds the coughing does the 1d6 nonleathal damage. This damage will build up till they go unconscious and die a few rounds later this Will drive them out or they face certain death In 5 rounds the Fort save is 20 when they get out they have to fight for their lives in the smoke with 20% miss chance the undead see Life Force (Libber Mortis) to attack people so fight just fine. You could Launch Item a Tanglefoot Bag on the door before the smoke cloud blocks line of sight to make it harder for the orcs to get out and a Shrunk Item multiton doorstop (Move up to command it once you have concealment from the smoke.). Now that costs 2,900 to 5,400 gp but you get to keep the item it is reusable in other scenarios thus a real value to have. top it all off you get all the loot and the Keep without fighting secondary problems like shades and wraiths. You all put the parts out there It is your win :cheer: :bravo: . Toptomcat A mundane, more practicable, and much more difficult to counter version of the 'Eversmoking bottle' trick: 1. Optionally, spend much of your starting gold on lantern oil and a vial of alchemist's fire. 2. Spend most of the prep time repeatedly casting Grease on the surrounding forest. 3. Optionally, spend the last day or so comprehensively soaking the surrounding forest with your lantern oil. 4. Toss the vial of alchemist's fire at a tree and run like hell. Watch as the orks are smothered by the smoke of the resulting forest fire. By the time the lantern oil and grease burns out, it'll be self-sustaining. Assuming the wind is blowing it over the Keep and doesn't change direction There is only 1 wood lot of small trees 100 ft. square that will last a long time but not a surething by it's self a good idea and great distraction for other parts of a plan. My plan is next post that I do.
dawnbringer 01-12-07, 08:50 AM	Be a magma genasi sorcerer. Coming from the plane of magma, all your clothes and your spellbook (if any), would be fire proof. Go to the nearest lava flow. Summon thoqquas to clear earth for the lava to flow towards the tower. Help dig yourself. Maybe even take a swim in the lava (totally cool). Rest when you have to, summon more thoqquas each day. Heck, travel to the plane of fire or magma and enlist the aid of one thoqqua. Once you get to the tower cast illusions so that the orcs can't see the lava flow and do a moat of magma around the castle. Sit back, have a swim in the lava, and wait for the orcs to die of starvation as they find they can't escape the castle because they can't get past the moat of magma. And you didn't even have to attack the castle once! Sure, this would take a long time, but who cares.
Mogofeiden 01-12-07, 09:10 AM	Just to clarify If I chose the eversmoking bottle I'd have gone with a air genasi. If chose the javelins of lightning I'd have gone with the human wizard (which is what I usually pick) I'm not saying that your point is not valid but it is very much dependent on the game and the players. Here you are complaining that mages should be more than spellslingers but magic is the great leveller. Face it, mages cast spells that is what they do and that is why they have access to scrolls/wands/staffs for backup. Yes, spellslingers do need their breaks and sure that does give the enemy an advantage. It's up to the DM to take that into consideration. Certanly if I was playing solo I wouldn't go for a straight caster, as my survival would be very unlikely in the short run. Of course, you can grab yourself a ring of sustenance and tunnel keeps and such. Hell, if you're a dwarf or an elf you have 400yrs/700yrs of tunnelling in you but that's certainly not heroic, in fact is dowright boring. Now I do agree that most dungeon campaigns do qualify as siege campaigns and that most run them in a most unrealistic fashion but that's not my game. On that note, my examples were all things my character alone could have done. Do you know that rings need a 12th lv caster? If you can tell me why a 12th lv caster could be arsed to spend his xp to make a ring to someone 6/7 lvs below him? Because I'm sure if he needed the money he could've just taken it. This goes for the wraith scrolls as well. Let me add, that most parties want their mages to be spellslingers because everything else can be done better by them and my bet is that however perfect the plan is, the rest of them will not want to stand back and watch thus ruining your perfect little plan.
T_Stalker 01-12-07, 09:51 AM	Problem is the keep is build on top of a hill, so your lava wouldn't flow anywhere near it. Summoning monsters or animals works in rounds, there's not a hole lot of work they could do in 36 seconds. I think you're best of looking at this challenge through the eyes of a rogue, more then a caster. edit: BTW, Iver Gearsham, I really think it's such crap that you diss people because they don't explicitly describe how they sneak into the keep. "How will the orc's react to the new special friend?" Well, what clan of orcs is it, what do we know of the captain, who does he take his orders from? Are they a bunch of homosexual outcast orcs? Is it a warband that just conquered this keep themselves? All in all, if you give little data, you will get little detailed input of how the infiltration takes place exactly. How about shrinking a huge ass boulder, putting dust of dryness in the well, stealing the pearls, unshrinking the boulder, making it fill up the entire exit and waiting for them to die of dehydration? Without the orcs being equiped with pick axes of shovels, they're not going anywhere.
dawnbringer 01-12-07, 09:54 AM	Then you travel to the plane of magma and convince a thoqqua to come to the material plane and help you. And just let the lava flow around the hill. They still can't escape.
Novabomb 01-12-07, 10:34 AM	OP: This is a poorly made, contest, that mainly seems to exist so that you can make snide remarks about those who follow your (foolish) rules to the letter and succeed. And wanting this to be done by a "standard" character when its such an unrealistic set up in the first place is idiotic. That said, i would be the 6th lvl sorcerer, with respectable cha, (enough for at least one bonus spell)[Might as well take leadership] Scribe 4 explosive ruins a day for 29 days or so. The day before the attack cast invisiblitity and deposit all these papers with runes around the bace of the tower, have ur minions suround the tower (purely mop up, you did not say we had to kill the ppl inside, just kill the tower). Cast dispel magic (fail the caster vl check) after and watch the tower collaspe (somehow i dont think the tower bace will surive an average of 1.6k damage) As the tower is, at best, on its side, i doubt there is any need to attack.
NerdNumber1 01-12-07, 12:04 PM	As a lvl6 Sorceror use all your time to make explosive rune notes. Then stack them up (in a protected box) with a sign (in ork) that says "Ork lotto, one is a map to gold the rest are trapped. Please take one." Add silent images and ghost sounds to make it seem real. In 4 weeks you could make 84 + 28/extra 3rd lvl spell slot you have. Edit: (sorry, didn't read previous post.)
Lokiyn 01-12-07, 12:07 PM	Back to the Ballista, you don't attack the orcs, you attack the tower itself. You will brink the tower down unless the orcs leave to attack you, in which case you have spent some time making pit traps in the area between you and them.
spectralphoenix 01-12-07, 01:35 PM	As a mage/caster you have few spells to cast in a day and once spent your done you typically get to stand around Aiding another or plink away with a crossbow do some other minor task or nag your party into leaving the conflict for 24 hours for you to regain spells. I say you should Learn how you can stretch your abilities use less spells per conflict adapt Standard magic items (preferably Constant, Command Word, Renewable Perday or Continuous) to new and effective uses. I am amazed at the foot dragging and whining but I want to F_F_Fireball them! why can't I Fireball them? Because this is about long term engagement combat not a 5 round phantasmagoria and oh yea and we will be back tomorrow so please drop your drawers when we do and please act supprised! But you're spending a month in preparation! You could attack at any time during the month, and you're not doing anything else with your time. If you don't use a spell slot by the end of the day, it didn't do anything. You regain all your spells in the morning regardless. I could see setting up a situation where there are too many orcs to simply blast in a day, but it doesn't make sense not to allow any spellcasting. It's not like you're going to spend a month devoting yourself to attacking the place and then go off and do more encounters that day. The key to preserving spells in large conflicts is to use a few spells intelligently. Very few fights can be planned a month or even a day in advance. Who is more powerful - a mage minus a few spells or a mage who never uses his spells for fear of becoming less powerful? Now that costs 2,900 to 5,400 gp but you get to keep the item it is reusable in other scenarios thus a real value to have. top it all off you get all the loot and the Keep without fighting secondary problems like shades and wraiths. I don't think your plan will work - as a spread, the smoke cloud can't go through walls. The ESB would need to get inside somehow. If you wanted to (and don't mind living a bit on the edge) you could probably forget about the forcecage, cast Mage Armor ahead of time, and hit the wraith with a Command Undead or two at night to save gold. And, as previously mentioned, the spawn of the original wraith are under its command, and since the Command Undead lasts for a number of days, you can simply ask it to look for relocate to a more suitable place. Hey, you can even throw another Command Undead (to extend the duration) on him and point them towards the next orc fortress! How's that for a reusable asset?
Magetastic 01-12-07, 03:48 PM	I'd ask for help. With magic. Buy scroll of planer binding for 1650 gold and inscribe a circle of against chaos or good and try to summon two bralani, as bralani are good creatures it shouldn't take much convincing to get them to kill a fortress of orcs that is a threat to a large amount of people and would be a sinch for them to kill. To seal the deal I'd offer them 1000 gold each. Bralani would cut through orcs like a fireball through butter. They could blast groups of orcs with their lighting bolt SLA or their whirlwind blasts while flying or go toe to toe with their DR 10, mirror image ability and holy weapons plus they could also use charm person on them. The bralani come back scimitars covered in orc blood take their gold and leave with the satisfaction of having done a good deed and getting paid for it. I move into my new fortress. Takes 3650 gold and roughly 10-15 minutes preparation time.
Davith Bothain 01-12-07, 04:23 PM	*sigh*... Either I missed a post somewhere or I am genuinely shocked that no one mentioned this: Reserve feats. Take a few, apply liberally (they're supernatural abilities, in case the OP gets picky). Without really getting too in-depth (I'm lazy): Fiery Burst to kill at range without limit, Clutch of Earth to keep your distance distant. Oh, and dust of disappearance to run up to the tower walls to manage cover before attempting to scale.
Iver Gearsham 01-14-07, 03:01 PM	First you guys are right I have been rude Sorry! Second I tried to set things up as simple as possible rules and arrangement of the tower and grounds with as few confusable points as possible. And that has maybe made more confusion than it avoided (I don’t know as I didn’t try a full page or more set up.). Sorry I wasn’t able to do a better job with that. Battle plans and the first shot in a war I guess. Third my time is not my own I have three kids I do their day care, go too collage part time, take care of my house and wife who goes full time to collage. That why this has taken so long. Now my plan. Warforged Scout as a small race MM3 page 193, No level adjustment living construct traits. It is possible to have a 20 Dex +5 mod, from size you get a +4 to Hide skill 2 ranks cross class your set at +11. Other skills Craft Wood 8 ranks +4 Int +2 MW tools, Knowledge Nature 8 total, Knowledge A&E 8 total Tumble 2 ranks total 7. My AC should be 5 from Dex 1 for size 2 from composite armor 1 from MW buckler total 19 AC. Feats Improved Initiative, Extend, Craft Wondrous. Equipment Blindfold of True Darkness 60 ft. blindsight source A&E guidebook page 130 4,500 too 9,000 gp. (I have to make this item or it’s a bust) One pot of glue and a brush 5 sp. Brown cloak with local grass stitched in it. Second cloak stone gray to match walls of keep. MW buckler 165 gp. Light crossbow 1d6 damage 35 gp 50 bolts 5 gp. Ten sets of master work wood working tools price total 550 gp. One Free standing wood wall made with my spells in a forest 1-foot thick 10 ft. long 10 ft. tall to be divided up as needed 30 gp. Source Stronghold Builder’s GB page 37. One, two pound singular caltrop 1 gp. Caldron 2 gp.for mixing Puke Tar. Bonfires made from the scraps of crafting the wall and forest floor free, Oil 10 flasks 1 gp to soak the bonfires and keep the Puke Tar burning. Puke Tar is a blending of 5 flasks of oil ten pounds of putrid rotting fish and animal flesh with 20 rotten eggs all items turned into a fine goo 1 gp each. This should force them to make a Fort save every round to keep it simple (with less debate) DC15 or be Sickened (PHB 312) A sicken character takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks and ability checks. As this save is concurrent with the regular Smoke Effects (DMG 304) of 15 +1 for every round in the smoke or spend that round coughing and choking a character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonleathal damage. The smoke also obscures vision providing concealment and a 20% miss chance. Spells I use Unseen Crafter 2nd lvl from Races of Eberron lasts a day per caster lvl. I use all 2nd lvl and 3rd lvl slots for first and second day they use the MW tools and make the walls I want. Explosive Runes 20 sheets of paper. Water To Acid 3rd lvl from StormWrack makes 1 cubic foot of acid per caster lvl as an instantaneous effect so its no longer magical after its transmuted and can be Shrunk. For the rules lawyers I added the rules for Create Water from the SRD Conjuration (Creation) [Water] Level: Clr 0, Drd 0, Pal 1 Note: Conjuration spells can’t create substances or objects within a creature. Water weighs about 8 pounds per gallon. One cubic foot of water contains roughly 8 gallons and weighs about 60 pounds. With these rules I can make 40 gallons of acid per casting and I Shrink Item up the acid as cloth. From SRD Clairaudience/Clairvoyance Divination (Scrying) Level: Brd 3, Knowledge 3, Sor/Wiz 3 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 10 minutes Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level) Effect: Magical sensor Duration: 1 min./level (D) Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: No Clairaudience/clairvoyance creates an invisible magical sensor at a specific location that enables you to hear or see (your choice) almost as if you were there. You don’t need line of sight or line of effect, but the locale must be known—a place familiar to you or an obvious one. Once you have selected the locale, the sensor doesn’t move, but you can rotate it in all directions to view the area as desired. Unlike other scrying spells, this spell does not allow magically or supernaturally enhanced senses to work through it. If the chosen locale is magically dark, you see nothing. If it is naturally pitch black, you can see in a 10- foot radius around the center of the spell’s effect. Clairaudience/clairvoyance functions only on the plane of existence you are currently occupying. Arcane Focus: A small horn (for hearing) or a glass eye (for seeing). With this spell I scout out the Cheap Keep. I approach Invisible at a time when the 4th lvl fighter should be a sleep. I glue the tiny bit of cloth that is the Large caltrop In the groove for the outer portcullis to jam it using my Architecture and Engineering skill and a twelve foot wide 9 foot high 1 inch thick wood wall in replica form buried in the dirt so it will expand and jam in the frame work threshold of the portcullis. In the storeroom I hide a Puke Tar bonfire cloth form and some Explosive Runes they may see as they move stuff to get to the fire. On the second floor the stairway near rooms 7 and 8 I hide a Shrunk wall to block the stairs. These are timed to go off in 24 hours. I then sneak up to roof above room 16 the master bedroom get cover from the roof pitch and crenellations from the two guard towers that are on the far side of the keep. Cover myself with the cloak for a bonus to Hide With this I will wait till the next day for the Shrunk Items to active on their own. The storeroom blazing in odiferous glory then with this distraction (the front portcullis blocked and jammed) and cover I slip down to the balcony entrance glue up a Explosive Rune sheet and go through the door if unlocked or destroy the lock with acid. With a Hide check I place a replica wood wall to expand as I slip through the door and hopefully the fourth level fighter will be in the midst of donning his armor (PHB 123 this should take 5 rounds to 1 minuet) and be distracted, Giving me a chance for a hide check. If not I go full defense and wait for my turn and then activate a Shrunk puke tar bonfire and move off hiding in the smoke. If the captain immediately starts attempting to put out the fire, I start shooting him and then moving with hide checks in the smoke (I can see him clearly with the Blindfold of True Darkness) If he keeps fighting the fire I toss another pt bone fire and shoot him some more till he succumbs to the smoke and my damage. (His AC should be around 10 or 11, 8 or 9 if he became Sickened without full armor on and being unable too see his foe denied DEX). The fight up stairs should draw attention after a few rounds and the Lieutenants should attack to sunder the blocking wall or direct the lower levels too do it. That should delay them for two more rounds by which time the 4th lvl fighter should be dead. If I have a round before they break through I drop another PT bonfire and ready a Pool of Acid attack to splash the stairwell in 40 gallons of acid as I toss it on the ceiling above it doing at lest 2d6 damage to all fighters massed to attack. They may send troops up the other stairs to cross the balcony to flank me this should take 2 rounds and then be delayed 1 or more moving or sundering the wall I left there and end up looking right at an Explosive Rune sheet. This lets me place more PT fires and Splash more acid on the fighters weakening them to a point where I may kill them with one or more shots from my light crossbow. Fight them a similar fashion till they are all dead or run off then hunt the rest down.
Fallenangel359 01-14-07, 03:28 PM	okay... I almost can understand banning spells. There is no purpose what so ever to banning warlock spell like abilities, as they are totally unlimited use, and are what makeup the class.
Morgotho 01-14-07, 04:29 PM	Equipment Blindfold of True Darkness 60 ft. blindsight source A&E guidebook page 130 4,500 too 9,000 gp. (I have to make this item or it’s a bust) What a shame that you had set the requirements for character levels and crafting items has an xp cost. Whether you start out as a sorceror/6 or a wizard/5, you'll still lose access to those third level spells you are relying so heavily on. Even if you were to argue that you had the xp to spare, you only automatically gain two new spells per level. I would be quite curious as to how you plan being able to cast clairvoyance, water to acid, shrink item, and explosive runes when you don't mention that you decided to learn a few extra spells. If you did go sorceror, aside from forgetting to tell us which class and what score you had there, you get three such spells at that level (and you better have at least a 13 on that score after the penalty), but all of them have to be the same spell. Nice try though... Your plan is also relying pretty heavily on luck. Invisibly walking up to the keep with the grass kept at three inches is going to have visible footprints. Now I expect that they've probably got a lazy guard and everything, but between that and the noise you'll probably be making since you don't have any ranks in move silently and are using it unskilled, there is a fairly good chance that at least one of the orcs will realize something is up. Additionally, all those dropped items become visible upon leaving your hands. Again, you've got a chance of having elements of your plan go off prematurely when an orc notices one of those explosive runes before you've set everything else in place. Finally, as a warforged scout with composite armor, you do have a 5% Arcane spell failure. Combine that with what you get for carrying around a buckler and you are already looking at a 10% failure rate. I hope you weren't planning on automatic success with the invisibilty.
Torbida 01-14-07, 04:47 PM	Thank you Morgotho. I had a sneaking suspicion that the OP was full of Darkmantle guano. This confirms it with such a hackeyned nad far fetched plan. A mage would never do this. This is the realm of the rogue, ranger, or perhaps a scout. But a mage doing all of this? What in the Nine Hells? As for mages are annoyinh because they run out of spells, as others have said before me the mage that runs out of resources did not prepare well.
T_Stalker 01-14-07, 07:25 PM	Not really how I'd see a mage handling such a situation. And I do find the plan depending too much on luck and brawling. I've got a new play on this though. Day 1: Use Clearvoyance to scout. Day 2-x: Scribe as much scrolls of Shrink Item as there are orcs, double for the officers. Day 5 before attack: Use all the scrolls on alchemists fire and acid pools. If I'm right about the spell you could actually shrink those into tiny harmless, substancial flames and cloths of liquid-seeming substance. Take those to a tailor to make cloaks out of the cloths and a jeweler to make amulets out of the fires. Be creative in this, add in some oil, sovereign glue, livestock, flaming boulders or whatever you can get away with. When that is done, donn your pretty hat of disguise, get yourself a scroll of glibness (extended?) and prepared some meta'd Charm Persons. Be on your jolly way to the keep, after casting that glibness scroll 'fcourse. Convince everybody you're a messenger from their Chief/ another tribe and are sent here with gifts. Hell, tell them they're Gruumsh himself gave them to you, to spread them to his favorites. They'll buy anything from you. When Shrink runs out and the screaming has mostly stopped, walk in there armed with a tower shield and more of those alchemical funstuffs. All that, with a minimum of property damage. Somehow, that kinda takes the fun out of it though. Now that's how I'ld see a mage do it. Still costs quite a lot on scrolls though. Command word shrink item magic item (?) would come in at (yeah, probably should be more, but what the hey) 5x3x1800 = 27 000 On second thought, that's not that bad a price, really. Would gladly pay it as well. Price of scrolls: (orcs + officers)*375 = I don't know how many there were. Too lazy to look it up. Would be a bundle though. Damn, thought I had something there. Oh well
Shadowmind64 01-14-07, 08:32 PM	why do people insist that a shrunken object maintains velocity when it increases in size? I know people dont lie to mix real-life with the game but according to conservation of momentum, the second your marble grows into a giant boulder, it would procede to fall straight to the ground. If you think about it, nothing in the rules says to use conservation of momentum, but nothing in the rules says to ignore it either...just some food for thought.
NoldorForce 01-14-07, 10:39 PM	Which is why you drop it from sufficiently high up. When an object is falling, the velocity doesn't matter so much as the net loss of potential energy...which giant falling rocks have in spades.
Lokiyn 01-14-07, 10:54 PM	Just to point out conservation of momentum only applies to a closed system. Once you apply shrink item to an object it ceases to be a closed system. The Spontaneous removal of mass does not accelerate the mass left behind, nor does the sudden addition of mass slow the item down. Shrink item effects are that of a non closed system.
T_Stalker 01-15-07, 11:16 AM	I'm not sure wheither this would help in the endless debate about a unshrinking item losing momentum, but I thought there was a druid spell in SC, Giant's Wraith or something. It makes your sling bullets grow to boulder size. For as far as I can remember it stays a normal ranged attack, just severly adjusting damage seems to be fine. Just my two cents.
Iver Gearsham 01-16-07, 04:55 AM	But you're spending a month in preparation! 1 You could attack at any time during the month, 2 and you're not doing anything else with your time.3 If you don't use a spell slot by the end of the day, it didn't do anything. You regain all your spells in the morning regardless. 4 I could see setting up a situation where there are too many orcs to simply blast in a day, 5 but it doesn't make sense not to allow any spellcasting. It's not like you're going to spend a month devoting yourself to attacking the place and then go off and do more encounters that day. 6 The key to preserving spells in large conflicts is to use a few spells intelligently. 7 Very few fights can be planned a month or even a day in advance. 8 Who is more powerful - a mage minus a few spells or a mage who never uses his spells for fear of becoming less powerful? 9 I don't think your plan will work - as a spread, the smoke cloud can't go through walls. The ESB would need to get inside somehow. 10 And, as previously mentioned, the spawn of the original wraith are under its command, and since the Command Undead lasts for a number of days, you can simply ask it to look for relocate to a more suitable place. 1 Yes but you maybe less prepared than you should I like to be better off with my preparations there are other tricks I could use but didn’t have time to explain them. 2 Yes I am casting spells to gain knowledge build tools/weapons those take up most of my spells per day for four weeks then I wait 24 hours before I attack to have them available for anything that pops up. 3 that’s why you can use them to spy on the orcs or make Explosive Runes, Water to Acid splash bombs and the like. 4 And how certain should your Character be that there are not too many orcs to blast with spells in a day? Granted spying on the enemy helps to limit the oops! We walked into an orc horde that’s building up problem but really most players are Meta Gaming that the DM is only throwing out X amount of foes per encounter. Why should your character expect such kind intervention from the gods? 5 This is an exercise to find out how far can you go without casting. In a real at the table fight you would be able to magnify your fighting potential as needed by casting to over come getting unlucky and to facilitate your battle plans, thus a more effective asset to your party. 6 Absolutely, I have found casting to make spell effect tool/weapons that don’t impact daily spell limits in a fight to be the best use. Saving room for spells like Dispell Magic too counter cast while having multiple attacks that simulate Fire/Acidball block attacks with walls and so on. 7 Right again but you can plan to have tools/weapons available that you and your party can have some idea on how your going to adaptively use them in a fight to overcome the foes. 8 It is a mater of, Why should I shoot everything with a Bazooka when all I need is a Fly Swatter? 9 For the same reason Smoke works in real life, The buildings are not sealed. If they shut all 30 or so arrow slits and the windows on the second floor the smoke would still seep in and do its work. 10 Wraith 1 is under your command and spawns wraith 2 who spawns wraith 3, If W1 and W2 go off in one direction and W3 another direction W3 then spawns W4 who spawns 5,6,7,8 then 5,6,7,8, meet you and have not been told about YOU your lunch or you Command one of them and hope it made the others or run. *sigh*... Either I missed a post somewhere or I am genuinely shocked that no one mentioned this: Reserve feats. Take a few, apply liberally (they're supernatural abilities, in case the OP gets picky). Without really getting too in-depth (I'm lazy): Fiery Burst to kill at range without limit, Clutch of Earth to keep your distance distant. Oh, and dust of disappearance to run up to the tower walls to manage cover before attempting to scale. Action Starvation If you can’t get cover/concealment impair their ability to attack or distract them to other areas they can shoot you or surround you and take you down. okay... I almost can understand banning spells. There is no purpose what so ever to banning warlock spell like abilities, as they are totally unlimited use, and are what makeup the class. Yep they don’t need to worry about it that’s why I am not trying to help them. 1 Even if you were to argue that you had the XP to spare, you only automatically gain two new spells per level. I would be quite curious as to how you plan being able to cast clairvoyance, water to acid, shrink item, and explosive runes when you don't mention that you decided to learn a few extra spells. Your plan is also relying pretty heavily on luck.2 Invisibly walking up to the keep with the grass kept at three inches is going to have visible footprints. Now I expect that they've probably got a lazy guard and everything,3 but between that and the noise you'll probably be making since you don't have any ranks in move silently and are using it unskilled, there is a fairly good chance that at least one of the orcs will realize something is up. 4 Additionally, all those dropped items become visible upon leaving your hands. Again, you've got a chance of having elements of your plan go off prematurely when an orc notices one of those explosive runes before you've set everything else in place. 5 Finally, as a Warforged scout with composite armor, you do have a 5% Arcane spell failure. Combine that with what you get for carrying around a buckler and you are already looking at a 10% failure rate. I hope you weren't planning on automatic success with the invisibility. 1 The point was if I make the BfTD I have the gp to get the extra spells and the rest of the equipment. How would I get them without buy them or adventuring for them? That’s why I needed money. 2 Read Spot skill there is a negative 1 penalty for every ten feet of distance from them to target (me) they get a –1 for daylight and I add 11 + d20 Hide roll to the DC to Spot small sized foot prints. Not likely too be caught that way. 3 Move Silently can be used Untrained, with no penalty Half speed movement gets no penalty, the ground is not covered in Scree shallow/deep bog, undergrowth deep snow or rubble so again no penalty, The orcs however get –1 per ten ft. –1 if in daylight and Metagaming have very little skill at it same goes for Spot. 4 That’s why I said to put them in places where they can’t be seen until it all hits the fan with the fire in the storeroom Then they should be moving crates and barrels out of the way to get to the fire and Bamm there’s a Rune dead orcs if they fight on more may be detonated or it slows them down keeping them busy while I kill the leader. 5 Like that matters it is small potatoes I have never failed the rolls yet and I have been wearing armor on my mages for years. Thank you Morgotho. I had a sneaking suspicion that the OP was full of Darkmantle guano. This confirms it with such a hackeyned nad far fetched plan. 1 A mage would never do this. This is the realm of the rogue, ranger, or perhaps a scout. But a mage doing all of this? What in the Nine Hells? As for mages are annoyinh because they run out of spells, as others have said before me the mage that runs out of resources did not prepare well.Thank you for being an insulting jerk got anything that is not a bunch a whinny waste? Prove your points or don’t post. 1 Let’s be clear your knock kneed bookworm kind of mage will not do this. Is the world flat to you?, go burn a book or something with your Never step out of your character role BS. I'm not sure wheither this would help in the endless debate about a unshrinking item losing momentum, but I thought there was a druid spell in SC, Giant's Wraith or something. It makes your sling bullets grow to boulder size. For as far as I can remember it stays a normal ranged attack, just severly adjusting damage seems to be fine. Just my two cents. From 1d4 too 2d6 is not that sever when they want 100d6 that’s a problem.
Mogofeiden 01-16-07, 08:48 AM	You know you're assuming orcs know how to read and that they be reading stuff while there's smoke and a fire going on around them. Isn't that whishful thinking? Also, given that they take a penalty to their mental scores and that they're described as savage humanoids my bet would be that they wouldn't know how to read and write, they definitely don't in my game. Or is it that as long as you're not a barbarian(class) you automaticly know how to read and write regardless of race and culture?! Now that would be darkmatle guano. You're also assuming that the front door of the keep would be open for you to walk in and that the Orcs never send patrols to the surrounding area. Odds are that in the timespan of a month you'd be noticed. Blindfold of True Darkness 60 ft. blindsight source A&E guidebook page 130 4,500 too 9,000 gp. (I have to make this item or it’s a bust) Is this item balanced? The scout's equivalent ability is very high level and for comparison the googles of night (which only give darkvision) cost 6k to make. Which one is the better ability though? You definitely wouldn't find this in my game. I find that your plan relies very heavily on splat books and on things that are know to be prone to abuse (like the water to acid spell). You'd have impressed me if you had restricted yourself to core material.
Lokiyn 01-16-07, 11:38 AM	Material Thickness hardness Hit Points Avg Damage attacks Masonry 1 ft. 35 8 90 20 13.5 6.666666667 Superior masonry 1 ft. 35 8 90 25 13.5 6.666666667 Reinforced masonry 1 ft. 45 8 180 15 13.5 13.33333333 Hewn stone 3 ft. 50 8 540 25 13.5 40 So on average in say 7 attacks over 21 rounds i can demolish a 5 foot segment of wall, going further i can take out say a 20 foot section (one side or so) in 84 rounds. Any opponents have to deal with multiple cr 1/2 booby traps (made for free) at 30 min to the trap i have roughly 480 Cr 1 traps between me and the orcs. (30 days X 8 Hours X 2 Traps per hour) Tower collapses killing the orcs inside, traps pick of the rest, survivors can leave or face the crossbow commoner.
Iver Gearsham 01-16-07, 12:58 PM	1 You know you're assuming orcs know how to read and 2 that they be reading stuff while there's smoke and a fire going on around them. Isn't that whishful thinking? Also, given that they take 3 a penalty to their mental scores and that they're described as savage humanoids my bet would be that they wouldn't know how to read and write, 4 they definitely don't in my game.5 Or is it that as long as you're not a barbarian(class) you automaticly know how to read and write regardless of race and culture?! Now that would be darkmatle guano. 6 You're also assuming that the front door of the keep would be open for you to walk in and 7 that the Orcs never send patrols to the surrounding area. Odds are that in the timespan of a month you'd be noticed. 8 Is this item balanced? The scout's equivalent ability is very high level and for comparison the googles of night (which only give darkvision) cost 6k to make. Which one is the better ability though? You definitely wouldn't find this in my game. 9 I find that your plan relies very heavily on splat books and on things that are know to be prone to abuse (like the water to acid spell). You'd have impressed me if you had restricted yourself to core material. 1PHB page 82 Speak Language lists them as having a language and using the Dwarven alphabet. MM1 does say they tend to be Barbarians but I did specify the ones in the Keep were fighters. 2Explosive Runes does say the runes detonate when read that maybe a DM call as to mean the entire text must be read but I wouldn't that complicates it's use beyond effectivness (leaving the last word unread in every text would make you immune to the spell). 3-1 hardly that impairing to render them all retarded beyond the ability to read. 4 That your perogitive to change your world but then it is not core it is your world only. 5That you should take up with Wotc because thats how it is in core. 6 That I did, I ment to add a Levitate (as I waited 24 hours to attack)or tangle foot bag climbing ropes but it was late and I missed it. 7 The 1 lvl ocrs Wis is 7 that's -2 MM1 gives them +1 spot and in day light that's gone. The higher level orcs may have more spot ranks but based on the standard orc not much. I have a much better Hide skill (+11) only great luck for them or a blunder by me would revel me to them. Perhaps It is because of the wall construction, bonfire, acid prep? How on earth could I hide that at my level? that has to be done else where. 8 The Blindfold of True Darkness market price is 9,000 gp I needed to make it myself to afford other equipment and spells. As to balance the Scouts ability can never be taken away from them without droping them a level or more. Any time I get hit with dead magic zones or Antimagic fields targeted Dispell Magic, MDJ or it is stolen that's it all done back to the drawing board if I live that long. 9 That is really hard as core books tend to Keep class role focus that without taking another class is near impossable to get any skills/abilitys or the spells to help you are fourth lvl and higher. The race level adjustment restriction was made neccesary by all the yahoo's with their I'll be a 14 HD monster plus class levels and walk all over your set up BS.
Iver Gearsham 01-16-07, 01:09 PM	Material Thickness hardness Hit Points Avg Damage attacks Masonry 1 ft. 35 8 90 20 13.5 6.666666667 Superior masonry 1 ft. 35 8 90 25 13.5 6.666666667 Reinforced masonry 1 ft. 45 8 180 15 13.5 13.33333333 Hewn stone 3 ft. 50 8 540 25 13.5 40 So on average in say 7 attacks over 21 rounds i can demolish a 5 foot segment of wall, going further i can take out say a 20 foot section (one side or so) in 84 rounds. Any opponents have to deal with multiple cr 1/2 booby traps (made for free) at 30 min to the trap i have roughly 480 Cr 1 traps between me and the orcs. (30 days X 8 Hours X 2 Traps per hour) Tower collapses killing the orcs inside, traps pick of the rest, survivors can leave or face the crossbow commoner. Ok commoner how are you hiding from patrols? How can you hide youself and plant trap all over their Keep and hill without them noticing? How are you not being shot repeatedly as you approch? Why are they not droping big rocks on your head? Why not Surround you as you hack at the wall for 21 rounds and chop you to bits?
Lokiyn 01-16-07, 02:02 PM	i'm not hiding, i'm spending 30 days making traps out of existing material in the woods A Booby Trap is a CR ½ Trap. It has a simple effect, such as a cord to trip someone or ring a bell. Setting up a Booby Trap requires a Craft (trapmaking) check vs. DC 20 and 1 minute’s work. This can be accelerated to 1 Full Round by taking a –10 penalty on the check. If the check misses by 5 or more, then the trapmaker sets the trap off on himself/herself. Bobby traps require 50 gp worth of parts. Alternatively, the parts can be scrounged from the surrounding area with a Survival check vs. DC 20 and 10 minutes of work. So i'm sorry, 1309 booby traps at a rate of 43 per night. Statistically i will kill orcs over the period of time as thier patrols blunder into traps and trip over cords and loops and potholes onto sharpened wooden stakes, small puddles of green slime (collected and grown in a glass jar), Brown mod (also collected and produced naturally) etc. Further more i could care less about the "orcs" in the tower, as they have to leave the tower to attack me, with an Ac of 5 (or less) its not going to be hard to target the orcs tower. expecially with heros of battle tossed in. As for myself, well i'm anywhere from 120 feet to 1200 feet away with my balista. Or we can dumb it down. I drop brown mold in the edge of the woods. I set the woods on fire, each round the brown mold doubles in size soon the tower is overrun with brown mold and all the orcs have been knocked unconcious from the cold. where they will then die of starvation while being unconcious. Later in the winter the brown mold dies from the the weather i walk in clean up and declare the tower mine.
Killer_DM 01-16-07, 04:25 PM	Well here is my go at it. You did not say what race my Wiz/Sorc is so I choose Orc level 6 sorc. Now I go to the tower the month before my attack make friends (pay them if I have to) with all of the orcs and learn their routine. at 11:59 before the night of my attack cast improved invisibility and silence on myself and when the cheif goes to sleep "Coup de Grace" him, then kill everyone else who is a sleep. Declare myself in charge when everyone wakes up in the morning! How's that?
Morgotho 01-16-07, 06:42 PM	That’s why I said to put them in places where they can’t be seen until it all hits the fan with the fire in the storeroom Then they should be moving crates and barrels out of the way to get to the fire and Bamm there’s a Rune dead orcs if they fight on more may be detonated or it slows them down keeping them busy while I kill the leader. I'm not going to go over every single detail about why your plan won't work, because its clear you don't want to hear it and would much rather point out the flaws in everyone else's plans. I will mention though that if the orcs have to move crates and barrels out of the way to get to a fire before they end up seeing the rune, I'd bet that you had to move the same stuff out of the way to place the damn thing. I suspect that you'll be making quite a scene for any orc that happens to be nearby too.
hisnamehere 01-16-07, 07:05 PM	Um, I for one ENJOYED the thread. If there are those of you out there who have opinions on the OP's personality and/or motives, please keep them to yourself, at least until the OP says something rude enough to elicit a response. As far as I can tell, the OP's flamers have said much worse things about him than he has of his posters. In short, don't ruin anyone's fun. Thank you, hisnamehere
T_Stalker 01-16-07, 08:13 PM	I'm with ya on that one hisnamehere, liked the challenge. Is anyone up for a thread like this with divine casters? :p
Morgotho 01-16-07, 09:42 PM	sorry hisnamehere, just feeling a bit snippy at that moment. reading some of the vitriol the OP used in response to other people's comments didn't help any either... in any case, to try and give a clearer explanation as to why I think his plan would fail. I present the thread with my understanding of the odds. Because Iver never statted out the orcs, I'm going to go with the stats given on the SRD for a level 1 orc warrior. (+1 spot/+1 listen) as a 5th level wizard with a +4 modifier to int, he has access to 2 5th level spells. since he is casting clairvoyance before invisibility, and since a failed invisibility ruins his whole plans, while a failed clairvoyance doesn't give him the scouting for immediately before the attack (would be a bit embarrassing to walk in and fail a check while the whole army is amassed), both spells are must succeed. He can take off the shield for clairvoyance, so that spell gets a 95% chance of success (-5% for armor) He cannot take off shield for invisibility, so that spell gets a 90% chance of success (-5% for armor,-5% for shield) I'll go with each guard is currently distracted (or will be by the time he gets to them), so they get a -5 to listen and spot. I'm taking daylight hours out of the equation for simplicity, especially since the SRD doesn't mention any penalties there beyond being dazzled by bright sunlight. To succeed on a spot check, they would basically need to have the benefit of circumstances due to invisibility so 100% success to Iver there Iver: +20 for being invisible, +11 hide Orcs: -5 distracted, +1 spot, -1 per 10 feet To succeed on a listen check, they would be doing an opposed roll against his move silently. I haven't got the book he references for the keep's size, but due to the stated position of the keep and the number of orcs, I'll take out the distance penalty. they're practically falling over each other anyway, so I expect he'll find himself standing next to one of them from time to time, especially when he enters the keep. If you want to put the distance penalty back in, you could take out the distraction for some of the orcs as they are likely to be keeping a more active lookout than I'm giving them credit for. Iver: +5 dexterity Orcs: -5 distracted, +1 listen, (-1 per 10 feet for posterity) this gives Iver a net bonus on his d20 roll of 9. in the cast of ties, Iver wins due to higher modifier for an automatic success, Iver needs to roll 11 or better (50% of the time) anything less, we can compare the rolls Iver:1 - Orc needs 11 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .50 likelihood Iver:2 - Orc needs 12 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .45 likelihood Iver:3 - Orc needs 13 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .40 likelihood Iver:4 - Orc needs 14 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .35 likelihood Iver:5 - Orc needs 15 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .30 likelihood Iver:6 - Orc needs 16 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .25 likelihood Iver:7 - Orc needs 17 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .20 likelihood Iver:8 - Orc needs 18 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .15 likelihood Iver:9 - Orc needs 19 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .10 likelihood Iver:10 - Orc needs 20 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .05 likelihood I'll spare the multiplication/addition, but that amounts to the orcs hearing him 13.75% of the time. Thus, Iver can be standing right under the orc's nose and not be heard 86.25% of the time. Now to take that and give his diminishing returns for each orc he has to slip past: Succeed on both spells: 85.5% of the time Spells and sneak past 1 guard: 73.7% of the time Spells and sneak past 2 guards: 63.6% of the time Spells and sneak past 3 guards: 54.9% of the time Spells and sneak past 4 guards: 47.3% of the time for the sake of arguement, I'll even give the possibility of 1/2 the time the noise is noticed but not acted upon. Succeed on both spells: 85.5% of the time Spells and sneak past 1 guard: 79.6% of the time Spells and sneak past 2 guards: 74.1% of the time Spells and sneak past 3 guards: 69.1% of the time Spells and sneak past 4 guards: 64.3% of the time all of the above assumes that Iver isn't doing anything to attract undue attention, and this leads to another issue. he's also leaving stuff hidden away and possibly moving a few items around as well to help hide them. his invisibility spell also only has a 5 minute duration, so he's also got to be pretty careful while he's moving around at 1/2 speed about his time limit. in any case, a plan which starts approaching a 50% chance of success when everything is being done right would have me a bit worried. I would be all the more worried when things start going wrong (and what plan has ever gone 100% as predicted)
Iver Gearsham 01-17-07, 02:23 AM	i'm not hiding, i'm spending 30 days making traps out of existing material in the woods So i'm sorry, 1309 booby traps at a rate of 43 per night. Statistically i will kill orcs over the period of time as thier patrols blunder into traps and trip over cords and loops and potholes onto sharpened wooden stakes, small puddles of green slime (collected and grown in a glass jar), Brown mod (also collected and produced naturally) etc. Further more i could care less about the "orcs" in the tower, as they have to leave the tower to attack me, with an Ac of 5 (or less) its not going to be hard to target the orcs tower. expecially with heros of battle tossed in. As for myself, well i'm anywhere from 120 feet to 1200 feet away with my balista. Or we can dumb it down. I drop brown mold in the edge of the woods. I set the woods on fire, each round the brown mold doubles in size soon the tower is overrun with brown mold and all the orcs have been knocked unconcious from the cold. where they will then die of starvation while being unconcious. Later in the winter the brown mold dies from the the weather i walk in clean up and declare the tower mine.Dam I like that! :cookie: :cookie:
Iver Gearsham 01-17-07, 02:25 AM	Well here is my go at it. You did not say what race my Wiz/Sorc is so I choose Orc level 6 sorc. Now I go to the tower the month before my attack make friends (pay them if I have to) with all of the orcs and learn their routine. at 11:59 before the night of my attack cast improved invisibility and silence on myself and when the cheif goes to sleep "Coup de Grace" him, then kill everyone else who is a sleep. Declare myself in charge when everyone wakes up in the morning! How's that? Improved Invisability is a fourth lvl spell but not bad an idea.
Iver Gearsham 01-17-07, 02:45 AM	1 I'm not going to go over every single detail about why your plan won't work, because its clear you don't want to hear it and would much rather point out the flaws in everyone else's plans. 2 I will mention though that if the orcs have to move crates and barrels out of the way to get to a fire before they end up seeing the rune, I'd bet that you had to move the same stuff out of the way to place the damn thing. 3 I suspect that you'll be making quite a scene for any orc that happens to be nearby too. 1 If they are there then they are there :doh: realiz :lightbulb improve on :plotting: move on. I do it all the time try it out for your self. Generaly it is best to do it when your characters life is not on the line thus this thread. 2 You really think it is as hard to glue and slip a paper in between crates and barrals and stick it on one of them as moving them in and out completly? If they see my Invisable self glueing sheets of Runes and placing rags behind their goods so be it plan B time.
Iver Gearsham 01-17-07, 04:21 AM	in any case, to try and give a clearer explanation as to why I think his plan would fail. I present the thread with my understanding of the odds. 1 Because Iver never statted out the orcs, I'm going to go with the stats given on the SRD for a level 1 orc warrior. (+1 spot/+1 listen) 2 as a 5th level wizard with a +4 modifier to int, he has access to 2 5th level spells. 3 since he is casting clairvoyance before invisibility, and since a failed invisibility ruins his whole plans, while a failed clairvoyance doesn't give him the scouting for immediately before the attack (would be a bit embarrassing to walk in and fail a check while the whole army is amassed), both spells are must succeed. 4 He can take off the shield for clairvoyance, so that spell gets a 95% chance of success (-5% for armor) 5 He cannot take off shield for invisibility, so that spell gets a 90% chance of success (-5% for armor,-5% for shield) 6 I'll go with each guard is currently distracted (or will be by the time he gets to them), so they get a -5 to listen and spot. I'm taking daylight hours out of the equation for simplicity, especially since the SRD doesn't mention any penalties there beyond being dazzled by bright sunlight. To succeed on a spot check, they would basically need to have the benefit of circumstances due to invisibility so 100% success to Iver there Iver: +20 for being invisible, +11 hide Orcs: -5 distracted, +1 spot, -1 per 10 feet To succeed on a listen check, they would be doing an opposed roll against his move silently. 7 I haven't got the book he references for the keep's size, but due to the stated position of the keep and the number of orcs, I'll take out the distance penalty. they're practically falling over each other anyway, so I expect he'll find himself standing next to one of them from time to time, especially when he enters the keep. If you want to put the distance penalty back in, you could take out the distraction for some of the orcs as they are likely to be keeping a more active lookout than I'm giving them credit for. Iver: +5 dexterity Orcs: -5 distracted, +1 listen, (-1 per 10 feet for posterity) this gives Iver a net bonus on his d20 roll of 9. in the cast of ties, Iver wins due to higher modifier for an automatic success, Iver needs to roll 11 or better (50% of the time) anything less, we can compare the rolls Iver:1 - Orc needs 11 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .50 likelihood Iver:2 - Orc needs 12 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .45 likelihood Iver:3 - Orc needs 13 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .40 likelihood Iver:4 - Orc needs 14 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .35 likelihood Iver:5 - Orc needs 15 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .30 likelihood Iver:6 - Orc needs 16 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .25 likelihood Iver:7 - Orc needs 17 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .20 likelihood Iver:8 - Orc needs 18 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .15 likelihood Iver:9 - Orc needs 19 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .10 likelihood Iver:10 - Orc needs 20 or better - Iver: .05 likelihood, Orc: .05 likelihood I'll spare the multiplication/addition, but that amounts to the orcs hearing him 13.75% of the time. 8 Thus, Iver can be standing right under the orc's nose and not be heard 86.25% of the time. 9 Now to take that and give his diminishing returns for each orc he has to slip past: Succeed on both spells: 85.5% of the time Spells and sneak past 1 guard: 73.7% of the time Spells and sneak past 3 guards: 54.9% of the time Spells and sneak past 4 guards: 47.3% of the time for the sake of arguement, I'll even give the possibility of 1/2 the time the noise is noticed but not acted upon. Succeed on both spells: 85.5% of the time Spells and sneak past 1 guard: 79.6% of the time Spells and sneak past 2 guards: 74.1% of the time Spells and sneak past 3 guards: 69.1% of the time Spells and sneak past 4 guards: 64.3% of the time 10 all of the above assumes that Iver isn't doing anything to attract undue attention, and this leads to another issue. he's also leaving stuff hidden away and possibly moving a few items around as well to help hide them. his invisibility spell also only has a 5 minute duration, so he's also got to be pretty careful while he's moving around at 1/2 speed about his time limit. 11 in any case, a plan which starts approaching a 50% chance of success when everything is being done right would have me a bit worried. I would be all the more worried when things start going wrong (and what plan has ever gone 100% as predicted) 1 Nope I never did, just most folks I know have a Monster Manuel 1 that has them dazzled in daylight with a negative 1 to just about everything. 2 I am Playing a Wizard not a sorcerer as evidenced by my use of wealth per level of 9,000 and cross class skills of 2 and buying single scrolls for spells I use multiple times. Typo (easy to make) 2 3rd level spells Clairaudiance, 3 2nd lvl spells Invisibility twice one Mirror Image for the P Screw, 4 First lvl spells total P screw ammo. So I could have a back up spell if I should win the 90 times in a hundred crapshoot. 3 If I blow all the spells and ruin my chances as I am the Aggressor I chose when and if I attack so I can wait and try again the next day Fresh as daisies non the wiser. 4 As this is done before engaging the enemy Rinse and repeat the next day 95% is dam good odds. 5 90 % see above. 6 I have no idea why the SRD would be lacking that but it’s not a problem for me as I have the MM1. 7 I really wish I could scan and post the Cheap Keep so all could see and follow the path of entry and so on and be able to come up with their own plans using the picture. But what about copyright laws? Board rules and the like? 8 Did you consider my Warforged doesn’t need to breath? Doesn’t fidget or need a bathroom break, or get hungry Zero distractions that cause RL soldiers to fail and die. 9 Ok your taking a factor (the spells cast before combat) that should not be added into the immediate likely hood of sneaking past any particular guard, thus skewing the math. 10 Hey remember Levitation? Add two padded sticks and Row yourself along the ceiling. In hallways and crowded rooms no one uses that space not much to bump into I think it is perfect way to move quickly through those areas. 11 For taking out 30 plus hard foes with just one 3rd 2 2nd level spells used and odds of 50% success (more if you don’t go till Golden) I say is dammed good. Toss in real spell use and you can easily up the chances to 80 or 90% without much effort.
Morgotho 01-17-07, 08:35 AM	Iver, the daylight won't factor in unless you are attacking during daylight (and weren't you planning on attacking when the level 4 is asleep?), and besides, I already gave you a pass at the spot checks. being dazzled does nothing against one's abilities to hear. The way you wrote your plan is easily misinterpreted such that you are casting clairvoyance immediately before the attack. Much like how the first go I had against it was misinterpreted about the xp issue. For the sake of repeating that one, how much experience points is your level 5 starting with? If you go by the bare minimum xp/level, then you cannot create your blindfold as there is also an xp cost to it and that would set you back to 4th level. Blowing all your spells may also not be an option as the aggressor. By the wording of your challenge, you are given 1 month of 4 weeks to prepare, it doesn't say that you can prepare longer than that. (If so, why attack it so soon, why not wait until you've got a bit more firepower) I did skew the percentages a bit, but it was not the way you are looking at it. I counted the spells as must succeed for the plan to succeed on that day. I also counted each orc encounter individually and only when you were right within 10 feet of them. If you want, I'm sure I could work up the numbers for what it would take for you to approach (factor in the distance penalty) and pass an orc, but I believe those individual numbers will come out worse for you. I didn't count that your warforged doesn't need to go to the bathroom or fidget or such, but then again I didn't count that your warforged is a construct and as such would be noisy in thier own ways. In any case, I was giving odds for just a couple events during the whole plan. I didn't even look at what would happen when they have a spot chance to see runes getting placed. If you want them to see it while moving stuff out of the way for the fire, it needs to be fairly obvious. if you're sneaking behind crates to place it, you may very well bump into something. if you are just pasting it on the side, they may not see it.