Post/Author/DateTime	Post
eyelessgame 01-29-07, 04:35 PM	It appears to require constant vigilance to avoid "takedown" by relatively low-level opponents, given access to some common magic. A group of low-leveled characters with a slight bit of moderate-level help would seem to be able to take out a high-level team they've dedicated themselves to killing with something like the following: - access to a teleport and a scry - several people holding actions to fire off spells of moderate damage (e.g. six fireball wands, each at 10th level caster, possibly built with energy substitution if the target has fire resistance) - a wand of augury to use up determining when all the preceding is likely to succeed (i.e. when the opponent is off his guard) I looked through the spell list for countermeasures and found few. The countermeasures to teleport are extremely limited, and the main countermeasure to a scry is the saving throw -- which will eventually fail; persistence always gets past a saving throw. All the wand wielders can be first level sorcerers. All you need is someone able to do the teleport -- which itself can be scribed into a scroll; when read by a high-Wis character all it takes is a few extra rounds till even a first-level reader gets the spell off. So any high-level character team that carries around a reasonable amount of magic should, in a logical world, be targeted by groups of low-level attackers (led by a teleport-capable individual) constantly, every time they go to sleep. Shouldn't they be? Think of the reward. It doesn't seem likely that most teams have protection against all the elements 24/7, and even if so there are non-elemental (i.e. force) effects that can be put together that can bypass their obvious defenses. A rogue's evasion can survive this kind of blitz, but there's no equivalent to that for most characters. Even half damage from 60d6 will kill most teams, and weaken the rest enough that lesser groups can finish them off before they regain their balance. Those wands aren't that expensive, if we assume this is a team put together by a moderate-level sorcerer (who casts the scry); it's well within his expected cash availability. A first-level cleric using the augury wand, a first-level high-Wis wizard to read and reread the teleport scroll till it works, and six first-level sorcerers with fireball wands on loan from their patron, and a week of patient scrying by the patron till the party is asleep with most spells down, and most parties get nuked. There is a spell that shields against teleport in the Compendium (it's a smaller range than a fireball and thus only helps if you're indoors, and so far as I can tell there's no easy way to put it into an item or make it continuous without constantly burning a high-level spell slot every day). Still. There seems to be so very little that defends against augury/scry/teleport/kill -- and if PCs are smart enough to figure this out, so are NPCs. How do DMs avoid smart enemies deciding to use this tactic once the CR of opponents reaches this (relatively modest) point? D&D spells reward attack more than defense. Powering up and then teleporting into surprise combat lets weak teams take down strong teams. Defenses simply don't last long enough. Half or more of all high-level modules I've ever read have ad-hoc prohibitions or restrictions on teleportation ("Teleport spells do not work in this castle/dungeon/underground area"). This seems to me to be an admission that the scry-teleport combination is simply unbalancing and indeed game-ruining. What am I missing? What is the countermeasure?
tarkin 01-29-07, 04:55 PM	There are several. 1) Is the anonymousity. They don't know your coming, you don't know who you have to attack. 2) Extra planar location, including things like Rope Trick, etc. helps out a lot 3) Forbiddance spells. 4) NonDetection, Screen and other spells that stop Scrying pretty easily.
eyelessgame 01-29-07, 05:12 PM	There are several. 1) Is the anonymousity. They don't know your coming, you don't know who you have to attack. That's fine, if the PCs are able to remain anonymous. But aren't most high-level characters reasonably famous, at least if they're at all public-spirited? In most cities the high-level NPCs are well-known and don't maintain anonymity. 2) Extra planar location, including things like Rope Trick, etc. helps out a lot Which most NPCs don't do, and most PCs don't do at home. Nor do they spend all their non-powered-up time outside the plane. Most PCs simply don't. Again, the point is that patient scrying and patient recasting of augury can wait for a mistake; it doesn't matter that high-level PCs and NPCs can be protected for many hours at a time, they can't be protected all the time. 3) Forbiddance spells. ... are a good point. They protect your home, at any rate. Ah. Somehow I did miss that one. Much of my problem goes away. It requires at least one person of the same caster level to teleport to the edge of the forbiddance and dispel it first. Harder, but not impossible. 4) NonDetection, Screen and other spells that stop Scrying pretty easily. nondetection requires a level check, which helps, but doesn't provide full protection. It's also not continuous; it burns two spell slots every day to have it up 24 hours. Screen works but, like forbiddance, isn't mobile. Thanks. This is substantially better. All high-level homes are likely covered by a forbiddance, most high-level characters walk around with nondetection up more or less continuously, and high-level wizards are likely to screen themselves. It's only the non-spellcasters -- and high-level monsters without SR -- who are totally screwed. :)
Mogofeiden 01-29-07, 05:29 PM	Detect Scrying (it lasts 24hrs) foils this tactic at the scry point. paranoid casters (mine tend to be) use this rest tactic: first thing in the morning Detect Scrying at night teleport somewhere/anywhere he's ever been, doesn't pick the same place twice, can be in the wilderness or your grandmas attic. then Mordekainen's Private Sanctum and within Rope Trick or Leomund's Secure Shelter (with or without Rope Trick) or Mordekainen's Magnificent Mansion. Next day, rinse and repeat. Castle and dungeon lairs are for fools. Due to not every party having a cleric or a wizard with these spells, the only thing stopping a NPC (the DM) is the DM's better judgement. PCs using this tactic or PCs getting killed in their sleep can ruin the campaign.
Loki5654 01-29-07, 06:42 PM	Just a quick thought: XP is based on overcoming challenges. Defeating enemies in this manner isn't that much of a challenge, therefore the XP should be reduced.
eyelessgame 01-29-07, 06:56 PM	Just a quick thought: XP is based on overcoming challenges. Defeating enemies in this manner isn't that much of a challenge, therefore the XP should be reduced. That I take serious issue with. Clever use of spells shouldn't reduce your XP. Stupid opponents should -- which is what I'm trying to avoid here.
eyelessgame 01-29-07, 07:06 PM	Detect Scrying (it lasts 24hrs) foils this tactic at the scry point. paranoid casters (mine tend to be) use this rest tactic: first thing in the morning Detect Scrying at night teleport somewhere/anywhere he's ever been, doesn't pick the same place twice, can be in the wilderness or your grandmas attic. then Mordekainen's Private Sanctum and within Rope Trick or Leomund's Secure Shelter (with or without Rope Trick) or Mordekainen's Magnificent Mansion. Next day, rinse and repeat. Castle and dungeon lairs are for fools. Due to not every party having a cleric or a wizard with these spells, the only thing stopping a NPC (the DM) is the DM's better judgement. PCs using this tactic or PCs getting killed in their sleep can ruin the campaign. The problem with "better judgement" as you put it is that it completely ruins verisimilitude, because it's a synonym for "no one is permitted to user their spells effectively and intelligently". Once you open that door the game becomes completely arbitrary. Everyone I've ever gamed with would throw their hands up in disgust at being told they can't use their powers in realistic, smart ways. It is a staple of the genre that wizards have laboratories, rich retired heroes have palatial homes, archclerics run temples, etc. If it is possible at any moment for anyone who knows your name or has seen your face to use over-the-counter technology available in any large town or city to take out anyone and get away with their stuff, you can't have these staples of the genre (which are assumed in almost every module and every setting). But clever humans adapt. Of course there are countermeasures, as the thread points out. I wanted to know what they were. Places frequented by high-level characters during their downtime, rest, recreation, retirement etc. are generally covered by forbiddance and protected from scrying. That's mostly what I wanted to know.
allenchan 01-29-07, 07:18 PM	One thing: You seem to be implying you can ready actions outside of initiative. You cant.
Loki5654 01-29-07, 07:19 PM	That I take serious issue with. Clever use of spells shouldn't reduce your XP. Stupid opponents should -- which is what I'm trying to avoid here.Using a catapult to swat a fly isn't clever. "Scry and Fry" means catching your opponent unawares. If they are unaware, they are less able to put up a fight. Therefore they are less of a challenge, therefore less XP.
Mogofeiden 01-29-07, 07:41 PM	I did not mean to come across as patronizing in anyway. I've asked the same question too once. What I meant is that eventually things need to come to a conclusion and with these tactics things can turn into standstill unless the DM gives a slight nudge. I play by the rules, sort of speak, I don't run dumb monster pens and I don't say: you can't teleport in 'cause I said so. The party I'm currently DMing for (The two casters are a warmage and a favoured soul) doesn't have the tools to be successful against something like this without me introducing a DMPC of sorts or otherwise load the dice in their favor. Would it be fair if I had an NPC kill the PCs in their sleep just because the players are playing the characters they want? That's why I said "better judgment".