Post/Author/DateTime	Post
tridiak 07-17-06, 11:47 PM	How does a large dragon (Age 13 red), with crap touch AC, inside a cave (cannot fly), counter the attack of 20 shadows? Especially under surprise. If he doesn't have the correct defensive spells, he's totally dead. BW may take out some, assuming they are not in the wall.
ShinAkuma2 07-18-06, 12:24 AM	...Find a bigger dragon?
BaelinWhale 07-18-06, 12:30 AM	What exactly do you mean by the Shadows being in the wall? I'm assuming it means that they're moving through it? One thing about Shadows is that they're incorporeal, not ethereal. This is significant because incorporeality lets a creature move through tight squeezes, but does not allow them to phase through solid objects the way ethereal creatures can. Because of this and unless the cavern in question is liberally riddled with holes, the shadows would be exposed to the dragon's breath attack. A dragon also has blindsense allowing it to automatically be aware of the presence of anything within 60 feet, which would prevent it from being surprised. Shadows can fly up to 40 feet per round. During a surprise round (standard action only), the shadows would be able to close in on the dragon, but wouldn't be able to make an attack during the initial surprise round (if any). As for tactics against shadows aside from its breath weapon, if the dragon has the Supreme Cleave feat, it's probably got the show in the bag. Considering its huge size, reach and attack bonus, one attack with Supreme Cleave will blow every shadow within range out of existence. Combat Reflexes and Attacks of Opportunity will also buy it more room to maneuver.
Rancorous_Fool 07-18-06, 01:44 AM	That doesn't actually work. While baelin is correct that a shadow cannot pass entirely through an object whose space is larger than the shadow, a shadow can pass through a solid object as long as it stays adjacent to the surface. So shadows could travel just underneath the ground, walls or ceiling. But, they could not move further into said walls or ceiling unless there is an immediate opening. Also, the blindsense bit doesn't work at all. Nonvisual senses, such as scent or blindsight are either ineffective or oonly partly effective. (DM's gonna have to rule that one) That dragon might very well be toast. Then pick up the draconomicon and look up shadow dragon and continue with the encounter.
runestar 07-18-06, 01:52 AM	There is a spell in draconomicon which lets you trade in your natural armour for deflection bonus to ac. Together with mage armour, those shadows won't be hitting very much. Also, note that while a dragon can penetrate dr/magic, its natural attacks are not considered magical, thus, they will not be able to hurt the shadows in any way unless it can access magic fang. Hope it has access to some sort of force damage spell, maybe a few wands of magic missile lying around in its hoard? It's the same logic with why the tarrasque can be taken down by a single allip. ;)
tridiak 07-18-06, 01:54 AM	Incorporeality allows creatures to go through solid objects, but they cannot do any deeper than their size. I am not sure how blindsense could sense a perfectly silent creature moving in a wall. I do not have the dragon book. Where is the Supreme Cleave feat? Dragon's attacks are considered magic or epic if their DR is such.
runestar 07-18-06, 02:31 AM	Dragon's attacks are considered magic or epic if their DR is such. I know. WHat I am saying is that this alone is not enough to hurt a shadow, you actually need a real enhancement bonus of +1 or greater. An incorporeal creature has no physical body. It can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities. It is immune to all nonmagical attack forms. Even when hit by spells or magic weapons, it has a 50% chance to ignore any damage from a corporeal source (except for positive energy, negative energy, force effects such as magic missile, or attacks made with ghost touch weapons). Although it is not a magical attack, holy water can affect incorporeal undead, but a hit with holy water has a 50% chance of not affecting an incorporeal creature. A dragon's natural attacks are not magic weapons, they are only treated as such for purposes purpose of dealing damage to creatures with damage reduction. Incorporeality is not the same as dr, so even while a dragon has the ability to penetrate dr/magic, it is still not able to harm incorporeal creatures unless it's claws are enhanced with magic fang. And if you are thinking about monk, the same thing applies to them too. Thus, a 4th lv monk cannot hurt a shadow as well unless he has magic fang or is wielding a +1 weapon of his own. ;)