Coup de Grace and regeneration? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace and regeneration? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Jaxian Redleaf
08-06-05, 10:31 PM I ran some encounters with trolls the other day and we could'nt get this right...
If a troll is down because of NL damage and you are doing a coup the grace on it with a say flaming greatsword and you do 26 NL damage and 5 fire damage is it only the fire damage that counts for the fort save? because if it is then it is very hard to CTG trolls...
MystErikEry
08-06-05, 10:36 PM It would only be the fire damage.

That is true; however, you don't need to CdG them. You could just attack their (unconscious) body multiple times with the flaming weapon. CdG is just for a +4 to one attack roll, and has a (generally high) chance of instantly killing someone.

If you read it as RAW, though, you CAN kill a troll with a CdG from a flaming weapon (as it does lethal damage to them, partially, so doesn't fall under "except that attacks that are automatically converted to nonlethal damage can't instantly kill it"), and since it's all one attack it's all added to the fort save DC... But I would much prefer that it added only the lethal damage to the save DC.
Merestil Haye
08-07-05, 06:45 AM It would only be the fire damage.

That is true; however, you don't need to CdG them. You could just attack their (unconscious) body multiple times with the flaming weapon. CdG is just for a +4 to one attack roll, and has a (generally high) chance of instantly killing someone.There are no attack rolls involved with CdG; you hit automatically.

Attacking the unconscious troll over and over will kill it eventually.If you read it as RAW, though, you CAN kill a troll with a CdG from a flaming weapon (as it does lethal damage to them, partially, so doesn't fall under "except that attacks that are automatically converted to nonlethal damage can't instantly kill it"), and since it's all one attack it's all added to the fort save DC... But I would much prefer that it added only the lethal damage to the save DC.You do only add the lethal damage.
Jaxian Redleaf
08-09-05, 11:54 AM when it's down...can't you set a fire to the troll then? or make a fire and throw the troll in it?
High Octane
08-09-05, 12:02 PM when it's down...can't you set a fire to the troll then? or make a fire and throw the troll in it?

Thats actually on the back of most trolls necks.

Directions: Slash him with non-lethal damage until he is unconcious. Then light him on fire or throw him into a fire. Repeat as needed (or desired in cases of sadistic tendencies or pyromania.) Collect experience. If experience is not available, consult your local DM.
Jaxian Redleaf
08-09-05, 04:47 PM But i haven't found any rules to how much damage fire does...can someone point me inte the right direction?
Palomides
08-09-05, 05:49 PM I have a question on this subject also.

Could you do a coup de grace with a burning hand spell or alchemist fire on a Troll ?
Master9
08-09-05, 06:33 PM From what I remember about troll-slaying, you can do a coup de grace with any weapon that normally doesn't do lethal damage to kill it. IE, a greatsword, but not a blackjack. He has to save vs. the full greatsword damage or die. Re-read regeneration, it has it all in there.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-09-05, 07:14 PM I'm gonna get hit with the "YOU AM WRONG" paddle for this, but... my group always ran it that cutting off a troll's head does the trick.

Alright, they regenerate. Surface damage, obviously. Internal organs, of course. Limbs, it says so. But your head is not a limb. Your brain controls your biological processes, if it's severed from the body, the body doesn't know how to grow stuff by itself, and it dies. But the head isn't going to grow a new body either because it doesn't have the resources. No extraordinary ability is going to cause 500 pounds of meat to fall out of your neck.

So in our group, a coup de grace on a troll used the whole attack for the DC.
However, even if you decide that the head will grow a new body, you've still got 3d6 minutes to give it an acid flask facial scrub.

Solution: instead of doing the standard coup de grace, take a full round action to cut off the thing's head, then kick the head someplace away from the body just to be safe.
Cathon
08-09-05, 07:19 PM But i haven't found any rules to how much damage fire does...can someone point me inte the right direction?
SRD - Environmental Effects

Catching on Fire
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.)
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
Radijs
08-09-05, 07:21 PM *whacks Cathon with the "YOU ARE WRONG" paddle*

Its magic. The head will grow a new body. It will pull the matter out of the surrounding area's using microscopic wormholes. Its a lot like the Teraport in Schlock mercenary only magical instead of science fictional.
aelryinth
08-09-05, 07:25 PM Correct, the troll will regrow the head.

YOu can't CDG with non-lethal damage. You could, however, stick your flaming sword in him and just light him on fire...it will die eventually.

Or, the other way is to drown or suffocate him. Regeneration does not protect against either form of death.

==Aelryinth
Veton
08-09-05, 07:26 PM From what I remember about troll-slaying, you can do a coup de grace with any weapon that normally doesn't do lethal damage to kill it. IE, a greatsword, but not a blackjack. He has to save vs. the full greatsword damage or die. Re-read regeneration, it has it all in there.

Here's the section on coup de gracing creature with Regeneration from the SRD:

A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.

Alright, they regenerate. Surface damage, obviously. Internal organs, of course. Limbs, it says so. But your head is not a limb. Your brain controls your biological processes, if it's severed from the body, the body doesn't know how to grow stuff by itself, and it dies. But the head isn't going to grow a new body either because it doesn't have the resources. No extraordinary ability is going to cause 500 pounds of meat to fall out of your neck.

It also says in the Troll description that Trolls regrow lost limbs or body parts. A head is a body part, so technically, the body will grow its head back if you read it that way.
Tyler Do'Urden
08-09-05, 07:32 PM Correct, the troll will regrow the head.

Alright, well you've still got at least thirty rounds to do awful things to it.
Radijs
08-09-05, 07:46 PM It also says in the Troll description that Trolls regrow lost limbs or body parts. A head is a body part, so technically, the body will grow its head back if you read it that way.
Soo the body regrows the head. What will the head do? grow a new body *shudders*.....Hmmm idea for the future.
High Octane
08-09-05, 08:44 PM *whacks Cathon with the "YOU ARE WRONG" paddle*

Its magic. The head will grow a new body. It will pull the matter out of the surrounding area's using microscopic wormholes. Its a lot like the Teraport in Schlock mercenary only magical instead of science fictional.

Technically its not magic, since it cant be dispelled or is under the effects of an antimagic fireld.
aelryinth
08-10-05, 12:47 AM NO, the head won't grow a new body. the discarded part dies. That's been covered elsewhere (and abused all to heck in one of the Moonshae novels, where a troll used a magic axe to cut off his fingers, and each finger became a young troll...riiiiiight)

Just as in another book, a creature could catch and eat a troll, and then it would regen out of the creature's guts...sorry, stomach acid is acid dmg and would stop the regen...bah!

So, no making infinite trolls by cutting one into a zillion parts and each making their own new troll.

==Aelryinth
Tyler Do'Urden
08-10-05, 12:51 AM NO, the head won't grow a new body. the discarded part dies. That's been covered elsewhere (and abused all to heck in one of the Moonshae novels, where a troll used a magic axe to cut off his fingers, and each finger became a young troll...riiiiiight)

Just as in another book, a creature could catch and eat a troll, and then it would regen out of the creature's guts...sorry, stomach acid is acid dmg and would stop the regen...bah!

So, no making infinite trolls by cutting one into a zillion parts and each making their own new troll.

==Aelryinth

That's what I thought.
Merestil Haye
08-10-05, 07:22 AM In 2nd edition rules, trolls bred by cutting bits off and letting the severed bits regen a new troll. The Moonshae novels were probably perfectly in accord with the rules of the time. They should not be used to set a 3e precedent because the rules on regeneration changed in 2000.

The way I run it.

Cut the head off a troll? Both body and head regenerate. The troll does not die - but cannot be active either. The two parts of the body will wait until someone or something sticks the head back on the troll, then some rounds later he's fine.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jaxian Redleaf 08-06-05, 10:31 PM	I ran some encounters with trolls the other day and we could'nt get this right... If a troll is down because of NL damage and you are doing a coup the grace on it with a say flaming greatsword and you do 26 NL damage and 5 fire damage is it only the fire damage that counts for the fort save? because if it is then it is very hard to CTG trolls...
MystErikEry 08-06-05, 10:36 PM	It would only be the fire damage. That is true; however, you don't need to CdG them. You could just attack their (unconscious) body multiple times with the flaming weapon. CdG is just for a +4 to one attack roll, and has a (generally high) chance of instantly killing someone. If you read it as RAW, though, you CAN kill a troll with a CdG from a flaming weapon (as it does lethal damage to them, partially, so doesn't fall under "except that attacks that are automatically converted to nonlethal damage can't instantly kill it"), and since it's all one attack it's all added to the fort save DC... But I would much prefer that it added only the lethal damage to the save DC.
Merestil Haye 08-07-05, 06:45 AM	It would only be the fire damage. That is true; however, you don't need to CdG them. You could just attack their (unconscious) body multiple times with the flaming weapon. CdG is just for a +4 to one attack roll, and has a (generally high) chance of instantly killing someone.There are no attack rolls involved with CdG; you hit automatically. Attacking the unconscious troll over and over will kill it eventually.If you read it as RAW, though, you CAN kill a troll with a CdG from a flaming weapon (as it does lethal damage to them, partially, so doesn't fall under "except that attacks that are automatically converted to nonlethal damage can't instantly kill it"), and since it's all one attack it's all added to the fort save DC... But I would much prefer that it added only the lethal damage to the save DC.You do only add the lethal damage.
Jaxian Redleaf 08-09-05, 11:54 AM	when it's down...can't you set a fire to the troll then? or make a fire and throw the troll in it?
High Octane 08-09-05, 12:02 PM	when it's down...can't you set a fire to the troll then? or make a fire and throw the troll in it? Thats actually on the back of most trolls necks. Directions: Slash him with non-lethal damage until he is unconcious. Then light him on fire or throw him into a fire. Repeat as needed (or desired in cases of sadistic tendencies or pyromania.) Collect experience. If experience is not available, consult your local DM.
Jaxian Redleaf 08-09-05, 04:47 PM	But i haven't found any rules to how much damage fire does...can someone point me inte the right direction?
Palomides 08-09-05, 05:49 PM	I have a question on this subject also. Could you do a coup de grace with a burning hand spell or alchemist fire on a Troll ?
Master9 08-09-05, 06:33 PM	From what I remember about troll-slaying, you can do a coup de grace with any weapon that normally doesn't do lethal damage to kill it. IE, a greatsword, but not a blackjack. He has to save vs. the full greatsword damage or die. Re-read regeneration, it has it all in there.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-09-05, 07:14 PM	I'm gonna get hit with the "YOU AM WRONG" paddle for this, but... my group always ran it that cutting off a troll's head does the trick. Alright, they regenerate. Surface damage, obviously. Internal organs, of course. Limbs, it says so. But your head is not a limb. Your brain controls your biological processes, if it's severed from the body, the body doesn't know how to grow stuff by itself, and it dies. But the head isn't going to grow a new body either because it doesn't have the resources. No extraordinary ability is going to cause 500 pounds of meat to fall out of your neck. So in our group, a coup de grace on a troll used the whole attack for the DC. However, even if you decide that the head will grow a new body, you've still got 3d6 minutes to give it an acid flask facial scrub. Solution: instead of doing the standard coup de grace, take a full round action to cut off the thing's head, then kick the head someplace away from the body just to be safe.
Cathon 08-09-05, 07:19 PM	But i haven't found any rules to how much damage fire does...can someone point me inte the right direction? SRD - Environmental Effects Catching on Fire Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and noninstantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don’t normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash. Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character’s clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out. (That is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he’s no longer on fire.) A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus. Those unlucky enough to have their clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
Radijs 08-09-05, 07:21 PM	whacks Cathon with the "YOU ARE WRONG" paddle Its magic. The head will grow a new body. It will pull the matter out of the surrounding area's using microscopic wormholes. Its a lot like the Teraport in Schlock mercenary only magical instead of science fictional.
aelryinth 08-09-05, 07:25 PM	Correct, the troll will regrow the head. YOu can't CDG with non-lethal damage. You could, however, stick your flaming sword in him and just light him on fire...it will die eventually. Or, the other way is to drown or suffocate him. Regeneration does not protect against either form of death. ==Aelryinth
Veton 08-09-05, 07:26 PM	From what I remember about troll-slaying, you can do a coup de grace with any weapon that normally doesn't do lethal damage to kill it. IE, a greatsword, but not a blackjack. He has to save vs. the full greatsword damage or die. Re-read regeneration, it has it all in there. Here's the section on coup de gracing creature with Regeneration from the SRD: A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage. Alright, they regenerate. Surface damage, obviously. Internal organs, of course. Limbs, it says so. But your head is not a limb. Your brain controls your biological processes, if it's severed from the body, the body doesn't know how to grow stuff by itself, and it dies. But the head isn't going to grow a new body either because it doesn't have the resources. No extraordinary ability is going to cause 500 pounds of meat to fall out of your neck. It also says in the Troll description that Trolls regrow lost limbs or body parts. A head is a body part, so technically, the body will grow its head back if you read it that way.
Tyler Do'Urden 08-09-05, 07:32 PM	Correct, the troll will regrow the head. Alright, well you've still got at least thirty rounds to do awful things to it.
Radijs 08-09-05, 07:46 PM	It also says in the Troll description that Trolls regrow lost limbs or body parts. A head is a body part, so technically, the body will grow its head back if you read it that way. Soo the body regrows the head. What will the head do? grow a new body shudders.....Hmmm idea for the future.
High Octane 08-09-05, 08:44 PM	whacks Cathon with the "YOU ARE WRONG" paddle Its magic. The head will grow a new body. It will pull the matter out of the surrounding area's using microscopic wormholes. Its a lot like the Teraport in Schlock mercenary only magical instead of science fictional. Technically its not magic, since it cant be dispelled or is under the effects of an antimagic fireld.
aelryinth 08-10-05, 12:47 AM	NO, the head won't grow a new body. the discarded part dies. That's been covered elsewhere (and abused all to heck in one of the Moonshae novels, where a troll used a magic axe to cut off his fingers, and each finger became a young troll...riiiiiight) Just as in another book, a creature could catch and eat a troll, and then it would regen out of the creature's guts...sorry, stomach acid is acid dmg and would stop the regen...bah! So, no making infinite trolls by cutting one into a zillion parts and each making their own new troll. ==Aelryinth
Tyler Do'Urden 08-10-05, 12:51 AM	NO, the head won't grow a new body. the discarded part dies. That's been covered elsewhere (and abused all to heck in one of the Moonshae novels, where a troll used a magic axe to cut off his fingers, and each finger became a young troll...riiiiiight) Just as in another book, a creature could catch and eat a troll, and then it would regen out of the creature's guts...sorry, stomach acid is acid dmg and would stop the regen...bah! So, no making infinite trolls by cutting one into a zillion parts and each making their own new troll. ==Aelryinth That's what I thought.
Merestil Haye 08-10-05, 07:22 AM	In 2nd edition rules, trolls bred by cutting bits off and letting the severed bits regen a new troll. The Moonshae novels were probably perfectly in accord with the rules of the time. They should not be used to set a 3e precedent because the rules on regeneration changed in 2000. The way I run it. Cut the head off a troll? Both body and head regenerate. The troll does not die - but cannot be active either. The two parts of the body will wait until someone or something sticks the head back on the troll, then some rounds later he's fine.