Coup de grace and the astral plane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de grace and the astral plane [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 11:52 AM Unusual situation came up last night. Our party was being hammered with round after round of Blasphemy (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsAtoB.html#blasphemy) draining our STR scores down to zero. (Please note there is no save vs the effects of Blasphemy only the banishment portion of the spell, which had no effect since the demons casting it were not on their home plane)

Now with a STR of zero you are immobile and helpless so that should be a perfect canidate for coup de grace right? Not so fast I say! On the astral plane you move with thought alone, you movement is based of your INT score times ten, you will it and it is done.

So is a moving immobile character still subject to coup de grace?
LdPhebos
10-31-05, 12:57 PM lol.. just the picture of a helpless floating body shooting across the astral plane into some color pool with arms and legs flailing around.
Jack of All Trades
10-31-05, 01:01 PM Thats hillarious. I mean valid, but deffinately hillarious.
LdPhebos
10-31-05, 01:06 PM From the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html)

ABILITY SCORE LOSS
Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points.

While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating.

Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground.

Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless.

Constitution 0 means that the character is dead.

Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless.

Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless.

Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless.

Acording to that, I would have to say that if they were able to move into your square and grapple you so that you couldn't move (which would be easy to do since it involves strength checks) they could coup de grace you.

This though begs the question... If on the astral plane you move with thought, could you move your arms and legs with just a thought... in which case could you substitute your int mod instead of your strength mod for the grapple check??
Vestigial_Thumb
10-31-05, 01:13 PM That's some Steven Hawking kind of ****.
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 01:22 PM Acording to that, I would have to say that if they were able to move into your square and grapple you so that you couldn't move (which would be easy to do since it involves strength checks) they could coup de grace you.

Ah but under grappling actions coup de grace is not listed. I don't believe you even can coup de grace while grappling espically since it is a full round action. This means that the attack strikes on your next turn, between then a character could will himself out of the way but should the coup de grace even be allowed in the first place?
LdPhebos
10-31-05, 01:22 PM Ahh i see what you mean asmodius. In that case you would need 2 people. One to hold him down the other to do the coup de grace mabey?

More from SRD

HELPLESS DEFENDERS
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

--

Ok so they wont be able to coup de grace you because its a full round action, and they have to take a movement action just to get up to you. Problem solved for the original question. (well unless they have Lions Charge or some other feat XD ).

Of course check with your DM to see if he doesnt want a house rule that all movement is based of int, even defending and attacking, in which case STR is useless on that the astral plane.

B
Plothos
10-31-05, 01:33 PM The movement by thought seems to be, in a manner of speaking, a way to shift your center of gravity. That means only movement on the battle grid. If that's all it is, then it would help you very little in terms of defending yourself. Reason to think you need str to defend yourself via moving your arms and such: you still apply your strength score to attack rolls (if I'm not mistaken).

However, since you can still move, you can stay away from the enemy, so that they're never within a 5' step of you, and can't do a full round action to do the coup de grace. That's you're only option, as I interpret the rules. Worse, if they could somehow affix themselves to you (and as DM I'd rule that without a strength score, you couldn't resist, so this would be accomplished with a simple touch attack against you, the helpless guy) by holding on to your ankle or something. This would probably have the two of you move as one, and I'd personally house-rule it as not even being a full grapple, thus allowing for the coup de grace action. All they'd lose is the use of their off hand and maybe an AC penalty for having to keep hold of you.
unusualsuspect
10-31-05, 02:55 PM Though a coup de grace takes a full round action, its affect does NOT occur at the beginning of next round. You're confusing spellcasting rules with regular combat rules... Otherwise a full-attack's attacks would only hit at the beginning of the next turn, because a full attack is a full round action.
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 03:46 PM You're confusing spellcasting rules with regular combat rules

I believe I am
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 04:02 PM My take on this is that lets say the person in question has 20 INT, a person moving 200feet in a 6 second time period is hardly "helpless", I just can't see coup de grace being an option against this foe
Tyler Do'Urden
10-31-05, 05:04 PM Well... technically in that situation, you'd just sort of be a limp body falling in a given direction. That doesn't really let you defend yourself, that just means they have to chase you. It's subjective directional gravity, right?

I think if you're just a limb body, they can chase you down and grab you and hang on, then coup de grace the following round.
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 05:06 PM From his most holy of SRDness:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Moving more than 100ft per round does not sound like "completely at an opponent’s mercy" to me
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 05:10 PM I think if you're just a limb body, they can chase you down and grab you and hang on, then coup de grace the following round.

That would be called grappling, which you cannot deliver a coup de grace while doing. Sure it would be an automatically successful grapple but a grapple none the less.
Tyler Do'Urden
10-31-05, 05:14 PM Why not?

There's nothing in the grapple rules that says you can't coup de grace. There's nothing in the helpless defenders rules about grappling. I say, if you've got a good grip on an unconscious humanoid, you can give his head a good twist and be done with it.
Molimo
10-31-05, 05:15 PM That would be called grappling, which you cannot deliver a coup de grace while doing. Sure it would be an automatically successful grapple but a grapple none the less.

I would say that grabbing onto a limp, helpless body (albeit a limp helpless body that is moving fairly quickly) would just be a touch attack.

It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling.
Lord Asmodeus
10-31-05, 05:26 PM Why not?

There's nothing in the grapple rules that says you can't coup de grace. There's nothing in the helpless defenders rules about grappling. I say, if you've got a good grip on an unconscious humanoid, you can give his head a good twist and be done with it.

Because under the grappling (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html) rules only certain actions are allowed, they have a list and coup de grace is not on it. Just like you can't cast a full round spell or even a spell with somatic components. You can't use a weapon bigger than light, all kinds of things.

I would say that grabbing onto a limp, helpless body (albeit a limp helpless body that is moving fairly quickly) would just be a touch attack.

It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling.

So you're saying that holding on to a creature that is hurtling through the air at upwards of 100ft per round, changing direction at will and trying to shake you is a free action?
ShinAkuma2
10-31-05, 11:25 PM It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling.

They are grappling attempts. A non-animated object automatically fails all grapple checks, so long as its weight falls under the grappler's maximum load requirements.

...Is he joking? Who knows? This is DnD. Maybe I'm serious.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 11:52 AM	Unusual situation came up last night. Our party was being hammered with round after round of Blasphemy (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsAtoB.html#blasphemy) draining our STR scores down to zero. (Please note there is no save vs the effects of Blasphemy only the banishment portion of the spell, which had no effect since the demons casting it were not on their home plane) Now with a STR of zero you are immobile and helpless so that should be a perfect canidate for coup de grace right? Not so fast I say! On the astral plane you move with thought alone, you movement is based of your INT score times ten, you will it and it is done. So is a moving immobile character still subject to coup de grace?
LdPhebos 10-31-05, 12:57 PM	lol.. just the picture of a helpless floating body shooting across the astral plane into some color pool with arms and legs flailing around.
Jack of All Trades 10-31-05, 01:01 PM	Thats hillarious. I mean valid, but deffinately hillarious.
LdPhebos 10-31-05, 01:06 PM	From the SRD (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/abilitiesAndConditions.html) ABILITY SCORE LOSS Various attacks cause ability score loss, either ability damage or ability drain. Points lost to ability damage return at the rate of 1 point per day (or double that if the character gets complete bed rest) to each damaged ability, and the spells lesser restoration and restoration offset ability damage as well. Ability drain, however, is permanent, though restoration can restore even those lost ability score points. While any loss is debilitating, losing all points in an ability score can be devastating. Strength 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He lies helpless on the ground. Dexterity 0 means that the character cannot move at all. He stands motionless, rigid, and helpless. Constitution 0 means that the character is dead. Intelligence 0 means that the character cannot think and is unconscious in a coma-like stupor, helpless. Wisdom 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a deep sleep filled with nightmares, helpless. Charisma 0 means that the character is withdrawn into a catatonic, coma-like stupor, helpless. Acording to that, I would have to say that if they were able to move into your square and grapple you so that you couldn't move (which would be easy to do since it involves strength checks) they could coup de grace you. This though begs the question... If on the astral plane you move with thought, could you move your arms and legs with just a thought... in which case could you substitute your int mod instead of your strength mod for the grapple check??
Vestigial_Thumb 10-31-05, 01:13 PM	That's some Steven Hawking kind of ****.
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 01:22 PM	Acording to that, I would have to say that if they were able to move into your square and grapple you so that you couldn't move (which would be easy to do since it involves strength checks) they could coup de grace you. Ah but under grappling actions coup de grace is not listed. I don't believe you even can coup de grace while grappling espically since it is a full round action. This means that the attack strikes on your next turn, between then a character could will himself out of the way but should the coup de grace even be allowed in the first place?
LdPhebos 10-31-05, 01:22 PM	Ahh i see what you mean asmodius. In that case you would need 2 people. One to hold him down the other to do the coup de grace mabey? More from SRD HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). -- Ok so they wont be able to coup de grace you because its a full round action, and they have to take a movement action just to get up to you. Problem solved for the original question. (well unless they have Lions Charge or some other feat XD ). Of course check with your DM to see if he doesnt want a house rule that all movement is based of int, even defending and attacking, in which case STR is useless on that the astral plane. B
Plothos 10-31-05, 01:33 PM	The movement by thought seems to be, in a manner of speaking, a way to shift your center of gravity. That means only movement on the battle grid. If that's all it is, then it would help you very little in terms of defending yourself. Reason to think you need str to defend yourself via moving your arms and such: you still apply your strength score to attack rolls (if I'm not mistaken). However, since you can still move, you can stay away from the enemy, so that they're never within a 5' step of you, and can't do a full round action to do the coup de grace. That's you're only option, as I interpret the rules. Worse, if they could somehow affix themselves to you (and as DM I'd rule that without a strength score, you couldn't resist, so this would be accomplished with a simple touch attack against you, the helpless guy) by holding on to your ankle or something. This would probably have the two of you move as one, and I'd personally house-rule it as not even being a full grapple, thus allowing for the coup de grace action. All they'd lose is the use of their off hand and maybe an AC penalty for having to keep hold of you.
unusualsuspect 10-31-05, 02:55 PM	Though a coup de grace takes a full round action, its affect does NOT occur at the beginning of next round. You're confusing spellcasting rules with regular combat rules... Otherwise a full-attack's attacks would only hit at the beginning of the next turn, because a full attack is a full round action.
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 03:46 PM	You're confusing spellcasting rules with regular combat rules I believe I am
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 04:02 PM	My take on this is that lets say the person in question has 20 INT, a person moving 200feet in a 6 second time period is hardly "helpless", I just can't see coup de grace being an option against this foe
Tyler Do'Urden 10-31-05, 05:04 PM	Well... technically in that situation, you'd just sort of be a limp body falling in a given direction. That doesn't really let you defend yourself, that just means they have to chase you. It's subjective directional gravity, right? I think if you're just a limb body, they can chase you down and grab you and hang on, then coup de grace the following round.
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 05:06 PM	From his most holy of SRDness: Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets. As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity. Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace. Moving more than 100ft per round does not sound like "completely at an opponent’s mercy" to me
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 05:10 PM	I think if you're just a limb body, they can chase you down and grab you and hang on, then coup de grace the following round. That would be called grappling, which you cannot deliver a coup de grace while doing. Sure it would be an automatically successful grapple but a grapple none the less.
Tyler Do'Urden 10-31-05, 05:14 PM	Why not? There's nothing in the grapple rules that says you can't coup de grace. There's nothing in the helpless defenders rules about grappling. I say, if you've got a good grip on an unconscious humanoid, you can give his head a good twist and be done with it.
Molimo 10-31-05, 05:15 PM	That would be called grappling, which you cannot deliver a coup de grace while doing. Sure it would be an automatically successful grapple but a grapple none the less. I would say that grabbing onto a limp, helpless body (albeit a limp helpless body that is moving fairly quickly) would just be a touch attack. It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling.
Lord Asmodeus 10-31-05, 05:26 PM	Why not? There's nothing in the grapple rules that says you can't coup de grace. There's nothing in the helpless defenders rules about grappling. I say, if you've got a good grip on an unconscious humanoid, you can give his head a good twist and be done with it. Because under the grappling (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html) rules only certain actions are allowed, they have a list and coup de grace is not on it. Just like you can't cast a full round spell or even a spell with somatic components. You can't use a weapon bigger than light, all kinds of things. I would say that grabbing onto a limp, helpless body (albeit a limp helpless body that is moving fairly quickly) would just be a touch attack. It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling. So you're saying that holding on to a creature that is hurtling through the air at upwards of 100ft per round, changing direction at will and trying to shake you is a free action?
ShinAkuma2 10-31-05, 11:25 PM	It's not grappling anymore than catching a baseball or picking up a rock is grappling. They are grappling attempts. A non-animated object automatically fails all grapple checks, so long as its weight falls under the grappler's maximum load requirements. ...Is he joking? Who knows? This is DnD. Maybe I'm serious.