Coup de Grace problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace problems [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
unipsi
09-03-05, 06:48 PM Can a character who sneaks up on an opponent perform a coup de grace? The opponent failed his spot and listen check, and doesn't know the person is there. The opponent is not bound or helpless though. I need link to a faq or possibly errata because we have a rules argument going on here.
Gray stranger
09-03-05, 06:52 PM not in my eyes, as he is not helpless or stunned he cannot be coup de graced
simple

besides, CdG'ing takes a full-round action, and I bet that the dude who failed spot and listen does notice someone beside him focusing for a massive blow on his neck ;)

Gray
unipsi
09-03-05, 06:59 PM I agree with you there, but I need an official link to a faq or errata so we know this is the actual rules, and not our own personal interpretation. :D
Gray stranger
09-03-05, 07:09 PM HELPLESS DEFENDERS
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy.

Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks.
A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him).

Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).

Emphasis mine

the SRD is the system reference document, otherwise the same rules as the core rulebooks, the srd can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/d20)

Gray
P.S: as far as I know this hasn't been errata'd, because it is clearly stated here
Super_Demolition_Christ
09-03-05, 07:42 PM what your thinking of is Death attack. otherwise the person is flatfooted and just that.
unipsi
09-03-05, 07:43 PM But otherwise at your mercy is what our player considers he achieved. He thinks someone who isn't aware of him is helpless, and otherwise at his mercy.
And I can't find anything to refute this. My DM ruled in favor of the player, opening up the floodgates for these type of coup de graces. Unless I can find something official, they won't change their minds. The only thing I found was in the DMG helpless is defined as a condition, but he argues because the PHB says "otherwise at your mercy", then he can do the coup.
d_nychus
09-03-05, 07:59 PM The player is wrong and the DM made a bad ruling.

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Someone who is unaware when the combat starts is surprised. A surprised person is merely flat-footed, not helpless.

Even if you surprise someone, you only get a standard action, not a full round, which is required for a coup de grace.
Thaebius
09-03-05, 08:00 PM "Otherwise at your mercy" is NOT achieved. Let me see if I can clarify what is actually meant by that, and why they SO can't CdG.

A mindthrall.
One who has agreed to be killed by you, in exchange for the life of loved ones, and is going to sit and take it.
Someone whose life is forfiet either way, and thus has agreed to sit and take it.
Basically, anyone who, through compulsion (magical or not) agrees to sit and take it.

CdG involves lining up a precision strike targetting their vitals. It takes 6 seconds. This is not a truly turn-based game, in those 6 seconds, the person is not standing there, frozen, since it's not their turn. There is NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING in your example preventing them from moving 5 feet, much less 20, in the time you're lining it up, other than "it's not their turn". And that doesn't qualify from a rules standpoint, or a common sense realistic standpoint.

Keep in mind, too, that in addition to them being able to move a foot or more, completely messing up your strike, they are also able to turn around, and I don't care How good your hide skill is, there is no way at non-epic levels you can miss someone standing directly in front of you, lining up a shot.

Even a guard on duty, unless it's a particularly strict order, will be moving somewhat. Shifting one foot to the other, leaning one way and back, whatever. And just that itself is enough to go from the strike through the spinal cord to a flesh wound.

Finally- as a blade enters an unaware person's body, they Notice. And, if possible, react. If they're good, they can mitigate the damage somewhat. Thus, no CdG. You won't find it in the RAW because there is no way they anticipated it ever being allowed by any reasonable DM.

Say all that to him, and if he still sticks by it, by all means, Grow a Spine. You're the DM, there's no way it's balanced or should be allowed, so Don't allow it. Your word is law, use that.

Best of luck to you.
Tyler Do'Urden
09-03-05, 08:37 PM If "flatfooted" equaled "helpless", they would have said so.

Coup de grace represents taking a full round to find your target's vitals and destroy them. This could mean grabbing their head and giving it a solid twist, thrusting your blade through their heart up to the hilt, or outright taking their head.

You can't perform a coup de grace on somebody just because they're not looking. You can, however, make a regular attack and get sneak attack damage (if you have it). Isn't that enough? WHEN WILL THE KILLING STOP?!
JadeSpider9643
09-03-05, 10:54 PM "otherwise at your mercy" will almost always be a person willingly putting their life in your hands.

Basicly ask yourself, "will this person be able to resist if I try to kill them"

unless the opponent was asleep on his feet, then you can not coup de grace. And since he got the chance to fail listen/spot he can't be asleep.
mvincent
09-03-05, 11:19 PM there is no way at non-epic levels you can miss someone standing directly in front of you, lining up a shot.[devil's advocate] How about with invisibility or improved invisibility?
ShinAkuma2
09-03-05, 11:33 PM Then they merely get a bonus to Hide, and are still not perfectly undetectable.

What if the guy turns around, and happens to hear the person's breathing, or sees the imprints of boots moving on the ground? It's not perfect.
StevenO
09-03-05, 11:58 PM For a target to be "otherwise at your mercy" they would actually need to be aware of you and their situation. I'd generally consider this a situation were the attacker could take time and gloat with the target not being able to do anything about it.
Serin Ghar
09-04-05, 12:34 AM This actually was actually asked in a game I was running once. Thankfully, I never had to make the call but this all reminds me now.

The PC sneaks up behind someone and the person failed their spot and listen checks, so the PC gets a standard action to attack. Now, there's a feat in one of the new Complete Books I think or maybe Champions of Ruin, that allows a Coup de Grace attempt with a standard action. Is the enemy "at their mercy" enough now for this standard action Coup de Grace?
Teydyn
09-04-05, 02:33 AM Is the enemy "at their mercy" enough now for this standard action Coup de Grace?
No.

He is neither helpless nor stunned. That are the only conditions that enable a CdG.
Tyler Do'Urden
09-04-05, 03:18 AM You can coup de grace someone that's stunned? Since when?

You're not paralyzed when you're stunned, you're just really out of it for a moment.
Minias
09-04-05, 03:28 AM No.

He is neither helpless nor stunned. That are the only conditions that enable a CdG.

Teydyn. You can not CdG someone who is stunned. Stunned is not helpless. Stunned is not like being paralyzed. Stunned is not like being bound, unconscious, sleeping or otherwise being at anyone else's mercy.

A stunned character drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This is far from helpless, or at somebody's mercy.

You'll notice the rules quoted above do not list stunned as a condition that a person can be CdG'd.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
unipsi 09-03-05, 06:48 PM	Can a character who sneaks up on an opponent perform a coup de grace? The opponent failed his spot and listen check, and doesn't know the person is there. The opponent is not bound or helpless though. I need link to a faq or possibly errata because we have a rules argument going on here.
Gray stranger 09-03-05, 06:52 PM	not in my eyes, as he is not helpless or stunned he cannot be coup de graced simple besides, CdG'ing takes a full-round action, and I bet that the dude who failed spot and listen does notice someone beside him focusing for a massive blow on his neck ;) Gray
unipsi 09-03-05, 06:59 PM	I agree with you there, but I need an official link to a faq or errata so we know this is the actual rules, and not our own personal interpretation. :D
Gray stranger 09-03-05, 07:09 PM	HELPLESS DEFENDERS A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Regular Attack: A helpless character takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks, but no penalty to AC against ranged attacks. A helpless defender can’t use any Dexterity bonus to AC. In fact, his Dexterity score is treated as if it were 0 and his Dexterity modifier to AC as if it were –5 (and a rogue can sneak attack him). Coup de Grace: As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to “find” the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace). Emphasis mine the SRD is the system reference document, otherwise the same rules as the core rulebooks, the srd can be found here (http://www.wizards.com/d20) Gray P.S: as far as I know this hasn't been errata'd, because it is clearly stated here
Super_Demolition_Christ 09-03-05, 07:42 PM	what your thinking of is Death attack. otherwise the person is flatfooted and just that.
unipsi 09-03-05, 07:43 PM	But otherwise at your mercy is what our player considers he achieved. He thinks someone who isn't aware of him is helpless, and otherwise at his mercy. And I can't find anything to refute this. My DM ruled in favor of the player, opening up the floodgates for these type of coup de graces. Unless I can find something official, they won't change their minds. The only thing I found was in the DMG helpless is defined as a condition, but he argues because the PHB says "otherwise at your mercy", then he can do the coup.
d_nychus 09-03-05, 07:59 PM	The player is wrong and the DM made a bad ruling. SURPRISE When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised. Determining Awareness Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware. Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks. The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs. Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC. Someone who is unaware when the combat starts is surprised. A surprised person is merely flat-footed, not helpless. Even if you surprise someone, you only get a standard action, not a full round, which is required for a coup de grace.
Thaebius 09-03-05, 08:00 PM	"Otherwise at your mercy" is NOT achieved. Let me see if I can clarify what is actually meant by that, and why they SO can't CdG. A mindthrall. One who has agreed to be killed by you, in exchange for the life of loved ones, and is going to sit and take it. Someone whose life is forfiet either way, and thus has agreed to sit and take it. Basically, anyone who, through compulsion (magical or not) agrees to sit and take it. CdG involves lining up a precision strike targetting their vitals. It takes 6 seconds. This is not a truly turn-based game, in those 6 seconds, the person is not standing there, frozen, since it's not their turn. There is NOTHING, and I do mean NOTHING in your example preventing them from moving 5 feet, much less 20, in the time you're lining it up, other than "it's not their turn". And that doesn't qualify from a rules standpoint, or a common sense realistic standpoint. Keep in mind, too, that in addition to them being able to move a foot or more, completely messing up your strike, they are also able to turn around, and I don't care How good your hide skill is, there is no way at non-epic levels you can miss someone standing directly in front of you, lining up a shot. Even a guard on duty, unless it's a particularly strict order, will be moving somewhat. Shifting one foot to the other, leaning one way and back, whatever. And just that itself is enough to go from the strike through the spinal cord to a flesh wound. Finally- as a blade enters an unaware person's body, they Notice. And, if possible, react. If they're good, they can mitigate the damage somewhat. Thus, no CdG. You won't find it in the RAW because there is no way they anticipated it ever being allowed by any reasonable DM. Say all that to him, and if he still sticks by it, by all means, Grow a Spine. You're the DM, there's no way it's balanced or should be allowed, so Don't allow it. Your word is law, use that. Best of luck to you.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-03-05, 08:37 PM	If "flatfooted" equaled "helpless", they would have said so. Coup de grace represents taking a full round to find your target's vitals and destroy them. This could mean grabbing their head and giving it a solid twist, thrusting your blade through their heart up to the hilt, or outright taking their head. You can't perform a coup de grace on somebody just because they're not looking. You can, however, make a regular attack and get sneak attack damage (if you have it). Isn't that enough? WHEN WILL THE KILLING STOP?!
JadeSpider9643 09-03-05, 10:54 PM	"otherwise at your mercy" will almost always be a person willingly putting their life in your hands. Basicly ask yourself, "will this person be able to resist if I try to kill them" unless the opponent was asleep on his feet, then you can not coup de grace. And since he got the chance to fail listen/spot he can't be asleep.
mvincent 09-03-05, 11:19 PM	there is no way at non-epic levels you can miss someone standing directly in front of you, lining up a shot.[devil's advocate] How about with invisibility or improved invisibility?
ShinAkuma2 09-03-05, 11:33 PM	Then they merely get a bonus to Hide, and are still not perfectly undetectable. What if the guy turns around, and happens to hear the person's breathing, or sees the imprints of boots moving on the ground? It's not perfect.
StevenO 09-03-05, 11:58 PM	For a target to be "otherwise at your mercy" they would actually need to be aware of you and their situation. I'd generally consider this a situation were the attacker could take time and gloat with the target not being able to do anything about it.
Serin Ghar 09-04-05, 12:34 AM	This actually was actually asked in a game I was running once. Thankfully, I never had to make the call but this all reminds me now. The PC sneaks up behind someone and the person failed their spot and listen checks, so the PC gets a standard action to attack. Now, there's a feat in one of the new Complete Books I think or maybe Champions of Ruin, that allows a Coup de Grace attempt with a standard action. Is the enemy "at their mercy" enough now for this standard action Coup de Grace?
Teydyn 09-04-05, 02:33 AM	Is the enemy "at their mercy" enough now for this standard action Coup de Grace? No. He is neither helpless nor stunned. That are the only conditions that enable a CdG.
Tyler Do'Urden 09-04-05, 03:18 AM	You can coup de grace someone that's stunned? Since when? You're not paralyzed when you're stunned, you're just really out of it for a moment.
Minias 09-04-05, 03:28 AM	No. He is neither helpless nor stunned. That are the only conditions that enable a CdG. Teydyn. You can not CdG someone who is stunned. Stunned is not helpless. Stunned is not like being paralyzed. Stunned is not like being bound, unconscious, sleeping or otherwise being at anyone else's mercy. A stunned character drops everything held, can't take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any). This is far from helpless, or at somebody's mercy. You'll notice the rules quoted above do not list stunned as a condition that a person can be CdG'd.