Coup de Grace question! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace question! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Archangel
05-11-05, 10:05 AM Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone?
What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save?
This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element. As the rules state you can use ANY melee weapon to Coup de Grace.
d_nychus
05-11-05, 10:20 AM Yes, you can do a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon. You take a -4 penalty to your attack roll to make it a lethal attack, but then automatically hit, so the -4 does not matter.

However, you cannot coup de grace a regenerating creature unless the weapon does lethal damage to it.

Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.
Egres
05-11-05, 06:25 PM Yes, you can do a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon. You take a -4 penalty to your attack roll to make it a lethal attack, but then automatically hit, so the -4 does not matter.

However, you cannot coup de grace a regenerating creature unless the weapon does lethal damage to it.
The FAQ disagree with you.

What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a
weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a
weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace
still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to
make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what
happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a
normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup
de grace?

This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that
you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but
if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack,
try these:
When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that
deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a
critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a
creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal
damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would
normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the
subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook),
the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the
nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is
rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough
nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total
equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a
nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has
12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal
damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll,
however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails
the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22
(current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is
roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your
saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs
at –10 hit points.
d_nychus
05-12-05, 11:09 AM Yes, because we all know that optional rules presented in the FAQ for a different effect than what was asked about supercede the actual rules. :rolleyes:

The FAQ is asking if you can use nonlethal damage in a coup de grace, even using a lethal weapon in a nonlethal way. The question in this thread is asking if you can use a nonlethal WEAPON for lethal damage to deliver a NORMAL coup de grace.

What the FAQ suggests is fine, but it does not even remotely answer the question that was asked.

Using the ACTUAL rules in the game, you can take a -4 penalty to attack in order to use a nonlethal weapon as a lethal damage weapon. Lethal damage means normal coup de grace. Therefor, what I said is 100% right, and the FAQ is 100% dealing with another issue.
Egres
05-12-05, 11:24 AM Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone?
What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save?

What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a
weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace
still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to
make a Fortitude save?

What the FAQ suggests is fine, but it does not even remotely answer the question that was asked.

:rolleyes:
d_nychus
05-12-05, 11:55 AM Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone?

:rolleyes:
Egres
05-12-05, 01:04 PM :rolleyes:
What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand?
Tony Vargas
05-12-05, 01:41 PM Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone? Of course not. Non-lethal damage, by definition, doesn't kill. That's rather the point of it. However...

What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save? I see no reason why you couldn't perform a CdG with a weapon that does non-leathal damage (for instance, Sapping a helpless prisoner to knock him out). You'd still score the crit, and your DM might even (as the FAQ suggests) call for the same FORT save, but vs unconciousness, instead of death.

This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element. As the rules state you can use ANY melee weapon to Coup de Grace. Clearly, you can't kill a critter with something that is incapable of killing it, however helpless it may be at the time. But you could keep it knocked out (or even in pieces for that matter) for as long as it takes you to find some way of disposing of it...
d_nychus
05-12-05, 01:56 PM You can deal lethal damage with a nonlethal weapon; it just has a -4 penalty to hit. Since the attack roll on coup de grace is automatic, if you want to kill someone with a nonlethal weapon, you just take the -4 penalty to attack, and it becomes lethal damage, and thus is a normal coup de grace.

Thus, as the original question asks, you can kill someone with a nonlethal weapon in a coup de grace. If you for some reason choose deal nonlethal damage, you can use the FAQ variant, but that is not what the initial question asked.

For the second part of the question, if you use a lethal weapon against a creature with regeneration, the damage of the weapon is lethal, but is automatically converted to nonlethal by the regeneration quality (as long as it is not the appropriate damage type). It is a special aspect of the regeneration quality that prevents the lethal damage from remaining lethal, not a choice of the user of that weapon.
d_nychus
05-12-05, 01:57 PM What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand?

What part of "and still kill someone" can't you understand?
Tony Vargas
05-12-05, 02:08 PM What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand?What part of "and still kill someone" can't you understand? Sheesh. It's not like the meaning of the question isn't obvious:

Can nonlethal damage kill when used with the Coup de Grace manuever?

The answer is no.

But, it's worth mentioning that it would be reasonable to aply the CdG mechanic, just to inflict nonlethal damage and unconsciousness, instead of normal damage and death.
d_nychus
05-12-05, 02:20 PM Actually, it was more "Can a nonlethal WEAPON (in otherwords, a weapon that normally does nonlethal damage) be used to perform a coup de grace?"

A nonlethal weapon can be used to perform a coup de grace to kill, but only if you 'take' the -4 penalty to hit, which is a moot point considering the attack is an automatic hit to begin with. So, the answer is yes, a nonlethal weapon can always be used to perform a coup de grace. Or a coup de grace to kill if you want to use the FAQ variant occasionally.
rbingham2000
05-12-05, 03:01 PM Man, did this get confused in a hurry.

Usually, by the time you have the opportunity to perform the Coup De Grace on someone, that someone is already down for the count and unconscious. A nonlethal weapon isn't going to do you much good in a situation like this because the function of a nonlethal weapon (knocking someone unconscious) has already been achieved.

In terms of killing someone with a nonlethal weapon when someone is already unconscious, you could do this with enough solid whacks with the nonlethal weapon -- this is known as beating someone to death. You wouldn't get the benefits of the coup de grace bonus, but you would whittle him down a few HPs at a time until he reaches -10 at which point he's history.
Catra
05-12-05, 05:12 PM Can you kill someone with a crowbar? Yes. Yes you can.

Can you kill them as fast as you can with a sword? Maybe if punch the crowbar through their skull, if you can even pull that off.

That's the difference between lethal and nonlethal weapons.
d_nychus
05-12-05, 06:51 PM Man, did this get confused in a hurry.

Usually, by the time you have the opportunity to perform the Coup De Grace on someone, that someone is already down for the count and unconscious. A nonlethal weapon isn't going to do you much good in a situation like this because the function of a nonlethal weapon (knocking someone unconscious) has already been achieved.

In terms of killing someone with a nonlethal weapon when someone is already unconscious, you could do this with enough solid whacks with the nonlethal weapon -- this is known as beating someone to death. You wouldn't get the benefits of the coup de grace bonus, but you would whittle him down a few HPs at a time until he reaches -10 at which point he's history.

How on earth did you come to that conclusion? That is absolutely wrong.

The rules of coup de grace allow for any melee weapon or a bow or crossbow as long as the attacker is within 5 feet. The rules allow for a nonlethal weapon to be used for lethal damage with a -4 penalty to hit. In a coup de grace, the attack roll is automatic successful, so the -4 penalty matters not.

Thus, you can kill someone via coup de grace if you choose to with a nonlethal weapon. You could also just give them nonlethal damage, or knock them out furhter using the FAQ variant.
Tony Vargas
05-12-05, 07:06 PM Actually, it was more "Can a nonlethal WEAPON (in otherwords, a weapon that normally does nonlethal damage) be used to perform a coup de grace?" :ahem: Actually, no, it wasn't, it was (parentheticals removed, and emphasis added for clarity):

Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon without making it lethal and still kill someone?

This became even clearer with the follow up question:

This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element.

The question was not about inflicting lethal damage with a normally non-lethal weapon, but about killing with non-lethal damage.
d_nychus
05-12-05, 07:27 PM Where did it mention nonlethal damage? All I saw was a question as to whether a nonlethal WEAPON can be used to kill someone, which it can. However, you do have to make ti lethal, making the base question conflictory.

All I did was state how, by the rules, you can kill someone with a nonlethal weapon, and why coup de grace does not work on regenerating creatures unless its the damage type needed to bypass that regeneration.

How is what I said wrong?
Catra
05-12-05, 08:10 PM You're striking different chords on the same guitar.
Norade
05-13-05, 12:58 AM can you Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon without making it lethal and still kill someone?

So you want to know if you can inflict a lethal blow with a non-lethal weapon while making sure that you don't do lethal damage? :uh-huh:
Egres
05-13-05, 04:37 AM How is what I said wrong?
What you said wasn't wrong.

It was simply unrequested.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Archangel 05-11-05, 10:05 AM	Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone? What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save? This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element. As the rules state you can use ANY melee weapon to Coup de Grace.
d_nychus 05-11-05, 10:20 AM	Yes, you can do a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon. You take a -4 penalty to your attack roll to make it a lethal attack, but then automatically hit, so the -4 does not matter. However, you cannot coup de grace a regenerating creature unless the weapon does lethal damage to it. Regeneration (Ex): A creature with this ability is difficult to kill. Damage dealt to the creature is treated as nonlethal damage. The creature automatically heals nonlethal damage at a fixed rate per round, as given in the entry. Certain attack forms, typically fire and acid, deal lethal damage to the creature, which doesn’t go away. The creature’s descriptive text describes the details. A regenerating creature that has been rendered unconscious through nonlethal damage can be killed with a coup de grace. The attack cannot be of a type that automatically converts to nonlethal damage.
Egres 05-11-05, 06:25 PM	Yes, you can do a coup de grace with a nonlethal weapon. You take a -4 penalty to your attack roll to make it a lethal attack, but then automatically hit, so the -4 does not matter. However, you cannot coup de grace a regenerating creature unless the weapon does lethal damage to it. The FAQ disagree with you. What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? If so, what’s the DC, and what happens if the target fails? What happens if you use a normally lethal weapon to deal nonlethal damage as a coup de grace? This question takes us beyond the rules. You could rule that you cannot deliver a coup de gace with nonlethal damage, but if you want rules for using nonlethal damage in such an attack, try these: When you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, you automatically hit and inflict a critical hit. Note that you cannot deliver a coup de grace to a creature that is immune to critical hits. Calculate the nonlethal damage from the resulting critical hit just as you would normally. If the nonlethal damage isn’t sufficient to render the subject unconscious (see page 153 in the Player’s Handbook), the subject should make a Fortitude save (DC of 10 + the nonlethal damage dealt). If the save fails, the subject is rendered unconscious. The subject immediately suffers enough nonlethal damage to make his current nonlethal damage total equal to his current hit points +10. For example, you perform a nonlethal coup de grace on a helpless gnoll that currently has 12 hit points. You hit the gnoll and deal 10 points of nonlethal damage, not enough to knock out the gnoll. The gnoll, however, must make a DC 20 Fortitude save. If the gnoll fails the save, its nonlethal damage total immediately rises to 22 (current hit points +10), and it falls unconscious. This is roughly the equivalent of being killed when you fail your saving throw against a lethal coup de grace, since death occurs at –10 hit points.
d_nychus 05-12-05, 11:09 AM	Yes, because we all know that optional rules presented in the FAQ for a different effect than what was asked about supercede the actual rules. :rolleyes: The FAQ is asking if you can use nonlethal damage in a coup de grace, even using a lethal weapon in a nonlethal way. The question in this thread is asking if you can use a nonlethal WEAPON for lethal damage to deliver a NORMAL coup de grace. What the FAQ suggests is fine, but it does not even remotely answer the question that was asked. Using the ACTUAL rules in the game, you can take a -4 penalty to attack in order to use a nonlethal weapon as a lethal damage weapon. Lethal damage means normal coup de grace. Therefor, what I said is 100% right, and the FAQ is 100% dealing with another issue.
Egres 05-12-05, 11:24 AM	Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone? What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save? What happens if you attempt a coup de grace with a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, such as a sap or a weapon with the merciful property? Is the coup de grace still automatically a critical hit? Is the target required to make a Fortitude save? What the FAQ suggests is fine, but it does not even remotely answer the question that was asked. :rolleyes:
d_nychus 05-12-05, 11:55 AM	Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone? :rolleyes:
Egres 05-12-05, 01:04 PM	:rolleyes: What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand?
Tony Vargas 05-12-05, 01:41 PM	Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon (like unarmed strike) without making it lethal (and getting -4 penalty which isn't really important because you automaticly him) and still kill someone? Of course not. Non-lethal damage, by definition, doesn't kill. That's rather the point of it. However... What are the effects? Non-lethal damage cannot kill but do you still make Fort save? I see no reason why you couldn't perform a CdG with a weapon that does non-leathal damage (for instance, Sapping a helpless prisoner to knock him out). You'd still score the crit, and your DM might even (as the FAQ suggests) call for the same FORT save, but vs unconciousness, instead of death. This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element. As the rules state you can use ANY melee weapon to Coup de Grace. Clearly, you can't kill a critter with something that is incapable of killing it, however helpless it may be at the time. But you could keep it knocked out (or even in pieces for that matter) for as long as it takes you to find some way of disposing of it...
d_nychus 05-12-05, 01:56 PM	You can deal lethal damage with a nonlethal weapon; it just has a -4 penalty to hit. Since the attack roll on coup de grace is automatic, if you want to kill someone with a nonlethal weapon, you just take the -4 penalty to attack, and it becomes lethal damage, and thus is a normal coup de grace. Thus, as the original question asks, you can kill someone with a nonlethal weapon in a coup de grace. If you for some reason choose deal nonlethal damage, you can use the FAQ variant, but that is not what the initial question asked. For the second part of the question, if you use a lethal weapon against a creature with regeneration, the damage of the weapon is lethal, but is automatically converted to nonlethal by the regeneration quality (as long as it is not the appropriate damage type). It is a special aspect of the regeneration quality that prevents the lethal damage from remaining lethal, not a choice of the user of that weapon.
d_nychus 05-12-05, 01:57 PM	What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand? What part of "and still kill someone" can't you understand?
Tony Vargas 05-12-05, 02:08 PM	What part of "without making it lethal" you can't understand?What part of "and still kill someone" can't you understand? Sheesh. It's not like the meaning of the question isn't obvious: Can nonlethal damage kill when used with the Coup de Grace manuever? The answer is no. But, it's worth mentioning that it would be reasonable to aply the CdG mechanic, just to inflict nonlethal damage and unconsciousness, instead of normal damage and death.
d_nychus 05-12-05, 02:20 PM	Actually, it was more "Can a nonlethal WEAPON (in otherwords, a weapon that normally does nonlethal damage) be used to perform a coup de grace?" A nonlethal weapon can be used to perform a coup de grace to kill, but only if you 'take' the -4 penalty to hit, which is a moot point considering the attack is an automatic hit to begin with. So, the answer is yes, a nonlethal weapon can always be used to perform a coup de grace. Or a coup de grace to kill if you want to use the FAQ variant occasionally.
rbingham2000 05-12-05, 03:01 PM	Man, did this get confused in a hurry. Usually, by the time you have the opportunity to perform the Coup De Grace on someone, that someone is already down for the count and unconscious. A nonlethal weapon isn't going to do you much good in a situation like this because the function of a nonlethal weapon (knocking someone unconscious) has already been achieved. In terms of killing someone with a nonlethal weapon when someone is already unconscious, you could do this with enough solid whacks with the nonlethal weapon -- this is known as beating someone to death. You wouldn't get the benefits of the coup de grace bonus, but you would whittle him down a few HPs at a time until he reaches -10 at which point he's history.
Catra 05-12-05, 05:12 PM	Can you kill someone with a crowbar? Yes. Yes you can. Can you kill them as fast as you can with a sword? Maybe if punch the crowbar through their skull, if you can even pull that off. That's the difference between lethal and nonlethal weapons.
d_nychus 05-12-05, 06:51 PM	Man, did this get confused in a hurry. Usually, by the time you have the opportunity to perform the Coup De Grace on someone, that someone is already down for the count and unconscious. A nonlethal weapon isn't going to do you much good in a situation like this because the function of a nonlethal weapon (knocking someone unconscious) has already been achieved. In terms of killing someone with a nonlethal weapon when someone is already unconscious, you could do this with enough solid whacks with the nonlethal weapon -- this is known as beating someone to death. You wouldn't get the benefits of the coup de grace bonus, but you would whittle him down a few HPs at a time until he reaches -10 at which point he's history. How on earth did you come to that conclusion? That is absolutely wrong. The rules of coup de grace allow for any melee weapon or a bow or crossbow as long as the attacker is within 5 feet. The rules allow for a nonlethal weapon to be used for lethal damage with a -4 penalty to hit. In a coup de grace, the attack roll is automatic successful, so the -4 penalty matters not. Thus, you can kill someone via coup de grace if you choose to with a nonlethal weapon. You could also just give them nonlethal damage, or knock them out furhter using the FAQ variant.
Tony Vargas 05-12-05, 07:06 PM	Actually, it was more "Can a nonlethal WEAPON (in otherwords, a weapon that normally does nonlethal damage) be used to perform a coup de grace?" :ahem: Actually, no, it wasn't, it was (parentheticals removed, and emphasis added for clarity): Well I want to know if you can Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon without making it lethal and still kill someone? This became even clearer with the follow up question: This I ask because to see if the creatures with Regeneration can be killed with Coup de Grace if you don't have the needed element. The question was not about inflicting lethal damage with a normally non-lethal weapon, but about killing with non-lethal damage.
d_nychus 05-12-05, 07:27 PM	Where did it mention nonlethal damage? All I saw was a question as to whether a nonlethal WEAPON can be used to kill someone, which it can. However, you do have to make ti lethal, making the base question conflictory. All I did was state how, by the rules, you can kill someone with a nonlethal weapon, and why coup de grace does not work on regenerating creatures unless its the damage type needed to bypass that regeneration. How is what I said wrong?
Catra 05-12-05, 08:10 PM	You're striking different chords on the same guitar.
Norade 05-13-05, 12:58 AM	can you Coup de Grace with nonlethal weapon without making it lethal and still kill someone? So you want to know if you can inflict a lethal blow with a non-lethal weapon while making sure that you don't do lethal damage? :uh-huh:
Egres 05-13-05, 04:37 AM	How is what I said wrong? What you said wasn't wrong. It was simply unrequested.