Coup de Grace vs Trolls and regenerating creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace vs Trolls and regenerating creatures [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Celas Evriamytholin
12-13-07, 05:53 PM Hi there!

I was just wondering if Coup de Grace works on trolls and other regenerating creatures?

Thanks!
StevenO
12-13-07, 06:12 PM If you can deal "real" damage to them.

That means you need to deal fire or acid damage which can go toward couping a Troll. If a creature has Regeneration that can't be overcome you may not perform a Coup-de-grace.
dman11235
12-13-07, 07:30 PM Well, you can still do the coup de grace, but it is all non-lethal, so won't kill them, just knock them out for a long time.
Tedronai
12-13-07, 10:05 PM While neither of the above is actually the case by the RAW, they are both reasonable interpretations of the RAI.
The crux of the case stems from the fact that the Coup De Grace action in no way states that it does not function from nonlethal damage, and neither that it functions differently.
RAW, a completely non-lethal Coup De Grace is just as lethal as a any such hit dealing lethal damage.

Personally, I would suggest having a completely non-lethal coup de grace deal nonlethal damage equal to the target's full normal HP + 10 (in addition to the damage dealt by the attack itself). That would put it on par with death effects affecting the Tarrasque, which seems appropriate.
StevenO
12-13-07, 11:04 PM Reading the Coup de grace area in the PHB (pg 153) you couldn't finish the troll is stage 1 unless you deal lethal damage and regeneration turns many normal form of damage into non-lethal ones. The question then comes down to the FOR save or die with a DC (10 + damage). I guess this makes it possible to succeed even if you do not consider all the non-lethal damage as damage in the equation which is what I'd do.

Using that I'd say it is possible to perform a Coup de Grace on a regenerator without dealing lethal damage but to be successful the creature needs to fail a DC 10 FOR save.
Tedronai
12-13-07, 11:30 PM The point being that the coup de grace text only references 'DAMAGE', not 'LETHAL damage', and as such, non-lethal damage (since it is still damage, though of a different kind than the lethal variety) is counted in full.

Any rule to the contrary (unless someone can pull up a reference to coup de grace attempts that states otherwise) is a house-rule, regardless of how reasonable it may seem, or even be.
Sir_Chivalry
12-13-07, 11:44 PM Issue #301 of Dragon Magazine, Ecology of the Troll. They mention you need to use acid or fire for a coup de grace.
Tedronai
12-13-07, 11:50 PM Issue #301 of Dragon Magazine, Ecology of the Troll. They mention you need to use acid or fire for a coup de grace.

Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW?
Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule.
Captain_Kobold
12-14-07, 04:12 AM I think the relevant bit you need is in the section on Regeneration, not the Combat section:

An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage.
Thus to perform a Coup de Grace on a Troll, you would need to use a fire or acid effect.
RavenDrake
12-14-07, 05:53 AM Not quite. In order for the coup de grace to have a chance to slay the troll, it would have to be with fire or acid. The coup de grace itself can still be performed(auto hit, auto critical), it just deals nonlethal damage and does not force a fortitude save.
Tedronai
12-14-07, 06:45 AM I think the relevant bit you need is in the section on Regeneration, not the Combat section:

Thus to perform a Coup de Grace on a Troll, you would need to use a fire or acid effect.

Strangely enough, I didn't catch that on the first time through, though it would seem only to affect creatures with regeneration (meaning that a completely non-lethal coup de grace would still be an option against any creature without regeneration), and that even a single point of lethal damage would cause the attack to affect the creature fully as normal (counting all damage dealt, as normal, including non-lethal).

Paradoxically, that text would also seem to proclude any death effect not delivered via a weapon (such as Finger of Death and the like).
Thurbane
12-14-07, 07:39 AM Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW?
Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule.
Wow, can you see your house from that moral high ground? :D

Check the rules - fire or acid damage can be used to coup de grace a troll. ;)
Belkar
12-14-07, 09:38 AM Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW?
Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule.

Um. No?

When WotC puts a big 'ole WOTC stamp on it... it's official. So official that the RPGA allows Dragon Magazine published feats to be used in tournament and living campaign play. Paizo is just a publisher, the content for the magazine is (was) still WotC, D&D approved material.

So... no. It is official. WotC says so... ;)

Plus... I think we're really overthinking this here. No one has yet said you can't do a lethal coup de gras to a troll with fire or acid... so... just... have your players use fire or acid.

That's how I've done it. Someone sees the troll regenerating, and keeps stabbing it while it's down until the party can get a torch lit. Is it an improvised weapon? Yes. Can you coup de gras with an improvised weapon? No. (per RAW). Do I let them, because it makes no "sense" that you can't hold a torch to the body and watch it burn? Yes. ;)
Belkar
12-14-07, 09:59 AM Another dissonant thought...

Why not just drown it? Regen doesn't work against starvation/drowing... and since an unconscious creature begins to drown immediately... just hold it's head in a puddle, or something...lol...

A wounding dagger would also be nice. When it's unconscious, just stab it repeatedly, until it's Con score drops to 0. Dead Troll. lol...
Derren S.
12-14-07, 10:04 AM Edit: Nevermind. Overlooked a small sentence in the regeneration description.
The others are correct. CdG a troll only works with fire or acid. Its better to suffocate/drown the trolls (that even works on the Tarrasque!).
RavenDrake
12-14-07, 10:51 AM That's how I've done it. Someone sees the troll regenerating, and keeps stabbing it while it's down until the party can get a torch lit. Is it an improvised weapon? Yes. Can you coup de gras with an improvised weapon? No. (per RAW). Do I let them, because it makes no "sense" that you can't hold a torch to the body and watch it burn? Yes. ;)

One question: what makes you think you can't make a coup de grace with an improvised weapon? I can't find any mention of it anywhere in the Helpless Defender's sectio where they describe the Coup de Grace, nor anything in the description of improised weapons that would preclude it.
Belkar
12-14-07, 11:39 AM One question: what makes you think you can't make a coup de grace with an improvised weapon? I can't find any mention of it anywhere in the Helpless Defender's sectio where they describe the Coup de Grace, nor anything in the description of improised weapons that would preclude it.

Really? Could have sworn...

But upon checking up myself - you are correct. I think my brain took the link between no sneak attack and an non-proficient weapon and imposed it on coup de grace and improvised. Not sure why. Oh well! :)

Now I don't feel guiltly for using rule 0! Cause I didn't use rule0! Woo hoo!

Seriously, though... the drowning thing is just hilarious. Can't you see a bunch of low-level troll hunters carrying waterskins and bowls into a fight?

"All right... he's unconscious..." "Quickly! Roll him over and put his face in the bowl! Die you scum!!!" lol...
risner
12-14-07, 12:01 PM Hi there!

I was just wondering if Coup de Grace works on trolls and other regenerating creatures?

Thanks!

If they are valid targets for CdG, then yes. You need to use lethal damage to CdG.

The point being that the coup de grace text only references 'DAMAGE', not 'LETHAL damage', and as such, non-lethal damage (since it is still damage, though of a different kind than the lethal variety) is counted in full.

Any rule to the contrary (unless someone can pull up a reference to coup de grace attempts that states otherwise) is a house-rule, regardless of how reasonable it may seem, or even be.

nonlethal is not damage.
nonlethal is nonlethal damage.

When the word "damage" is used, it refers to lethal hit point damage.
When other types of damage is allowed, it will say nonlethal damage or ability damage.

This is a very old argument and is based on reading more into the text that is present. Your position isn't RAW, it is RAI or RAILT (rules as I like them), but it isn't RAW.
Derren S.
12-14-07, 12:11 PM If they are valid targets for CdG, then yes. You need to use lethal damage to CdG.

nonlethal is not damage.
nonlethal is nonlethal damage.

Damage is damage no matter if lethal or nonlethal.
But the Regeneration quality says that to CdG a creature with regeneration you have to use a weapon which deals normal damage to this creature.
1 ton ghost
12-14-07, 12:22 PM usually it's a moot point after it goes "negative"; all the PCs dog-pile on the damned thing and perforate the Hell out of it. someone, eventually Spots/Heal checks to see it's growing back and a solution is reached, typically via a Tingertwig and the dwarf's favorite whiskey, etc.
now, this can be a problem for high wind or aquatic environs (though skrags only Regen IN WATER), etc.

whoever said, "drown it." i like where your head's at. i think that is the simplest/fastest solution.
failing that, does decapitation have any effect? i know for vampires and the like.

perhaps this is why a great many of the new (and exceedingly numerous) troll species have Fast Healing, not Regen for simplicity of game.
Derren S.
12-14-07, 12:26 PM failing that, does decapitation have any effect? i know for vampires and the like.

Doesn't work on trolls. Unless they are killed they regenerate everything which was cut off.
But that leads to the question if cutting off their head automatically suffocates them...
Celas Evriamytholin
12-14-07, 02:46 PM My question has been thoroughly answered, thank you for all the colorful responses :P

I have to admit, drowning it never occured to me. It almost sounds more inhumane than burning it ;p.
Mirannan
12-14-07, 03:07 PM Common sense should always rule. As an example of this:

I was playing in a game where the party was fighting scrags (sea trolls) underwater using potions of water breathing. One of the trolls was down; the others were fully engaged with party members. What happened? Simple. I did what is probably described in the RAW as a coup de grace, and stuck a siangham into its left eye so my character could just grip the end of it, and started wiggling it about (thus churning up its brain) and kept doing this until we got the chance to haul the thing out of the water. After the first attack I was not asked to make any more rolls; I think that the DM was right in that decision. Anyway, it worked.
RavenDrake
12-15-07, 12:37 AM Damage is damage no matter if lethal or nonlethal.
But the Regeneration quality says that to CdG a creature with regeneration you have to use a weapon which deals normal damage to this creature.

That's not what regenerations says, though. It says that an attack that could cause instant death(such as a Coup de Grace) only threatens the creature with death if it's dealt by an attack that deals normal damage to the creature. You can still perform the CDG with any weapon or attack that could normally be used, but unless the attack deals lethal damage then the creature doesn't have to make thier save against instant death.
NoldorForce
12-15-07, 02:15 AM Doesn't work on trolls. Unless they are killed they regenerate everything which was cut off.
But that leads to the question if cutting off their head automatically suffocates them...They'd likely suffocate beforehand; regeneration (except possibly if you're dealing with the Tarrasque) does not bypass suffocation, starvation, or dehydration.

For what it's worth, one houserule I've seen a bit (as in Mirannan's case) is to allow a nonlethal coup de grace...with the caveat that the target instead is effectively put into unconsciousness by nonlethal damage.
FrostHammer
12-15-07, 02:57 AM Look, just knock it out with a non-lethal coup-de-grace, and then suffocate/drown it. Simple.
NoldorForce
12-15-07, 10:56 PM Look, just knock it out with a non-lethal coup-de-grace, and then suffocate/drown it. Simple.Er, a nonlethal coup de grace is a houserule (albeit a reasonable one).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Celas Evriamytholin 12-13-07, 05:53 PM	Hi there! I was just wondering if Coup de Grace works on trolls and other regenerating creatures? Thanks!
StevenO 12-13-07, 06:12 PM	If you can deal "real" damage to them. That means you need to deal fire or acid damage which can go toward couping a Troll. If a creature has Regeneration that can't be overcome you may not perform a Coup-de-grace.
dman11235 12-13-07, 07:30 PM	Well, you can still do the coup de grace, but it is all non-lethal, so won't kill them, just knock them out for a long time.
Tedronai 12-13-07, 10:05 PM	While neither of the above is actually the case by the RAW, they are both reasonable interpretations of the RAI. The crux of the case stems from the fact that the Coup De Grace action in no way states that it does not function from nonlethal damage, and neither that it functions differently. RAW, a completely non-lethal Coup De Grace is just as lethal as a any such hit dealing lethal damage. Personally, I would suggest having a completely non-lethal coup de grace deal nonlethal damage equal to the target's full normal HP + 10 (in addition to the damage dealt by the attack itself). That would put it on par with death effects affecting the Tarrasque, which seems appropriate.
StevenO 12-13-07, 11:04 PM	Reading the Coup de grace area in the PHB (pg 153) you couldn't finish the troll is stage 1 unless you deal lethal damage and regeneration turns many normal form of damage into non-lethal ones. The question then comes down to the FOR save or die with a DC (10 + damage). I guess this makes it possible to succeed even if you do not consider all the non-lethal damage as damage in the equation which is what I'd do. Using that I'd say it is possible to perform a Coup de Grace on a regenerator without dealing lethal damage but to be successful the creature needs to fail a DC 10 FOR save.
Tedronai 12-13-07, 11:30 PM	The point being that the coup de grace text only references 'DAMAGE', not 'LETHAL damage', and as such, non-lethal damage (since it is still damage, though of a different kind than the lethal variety) is counted in full. Any rule to the contrary (unless someone can pull up a reference to coup de grace attempts that states otherwise) is a house-rule, regardless of how reasonable it may seem, or even be.
Sir_Chivalry 12-13-07, 11:44 PM	Issue #301 of Dragon Magazine, Ecology of the Troll. They mention you need to use acid or fire for a coup de grace.
Tedronai 12-13-07, 11:50 PM	Issue #301 of Dragon Magazine, Ecology of the Troll. They mention you need to use acid or fire for a coup de grace. Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW? Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule.
Captain_Kobold 12-14-07, 04:12 AM	I think the relevant bit you need is in the section on Regeneration, not the Combat section: An attack that can cause instant death only threatens the creature with death if it is delivered by weapons that deal it lethal damage. Thus to perform a Coup de Grace on a Troll, you would need to use a fire or acid effect.
RavenDrake 12-14-07, 05:53 AM	Not quite. In order for the coup de grace to have a chance to slay the troll, it would have to be with fire or acid. The coup de grace itself can still be performed(auto hit, auto critical), it just deals nonlethal damage and does not force a fortitude save.
Tedronai 12-14-07, 06:45 AM	I think the relevant bit you need is in the section on Regeneration, not the Combat section: Thus to perform a Coup de Grace on a Troll, you would need to use a fire or acid effect. Strangely enough, I didn't catch that on the first time through, though it would seem only to affect creatures with regeneration (meaning that a completely non-lethal coup de grace would still be an option against any creature without regeneration), and that even a single point of lethal damage would cause the attack to affect the creature fully as normal (counting all damage dealt, as normal, including non-lethal). Paradoxically, that text would also seem to proclude any death effect not delivered via a weapon (such as Finger of Death and the like).
Thurbane 12-14-07, 07:39 AM	Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW? Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule. Wow, can you see your house from that moral high ground? :D Check the rules - fire or acid damage can be used to coup de grace a troll. ;)
Belkar 12-14-07, 09:38 AM	Dragon Magazine, the product, until recently, produced and published by a 3rd party, and thus in no way affecting RAW? Yet another source suggesting a house-rule to 'fix' the situation (if you think it needs fixing), but still only a house-rule. Um. No? When WotC puts a big 'ole WOTC stamp on it... it's official. So official that the RPGA allows Dragon Magazine published feats to be used in tournament and living campaign play. Paizo is just a publisher, the content for the magazine is (was) still WotC, D&D approved material. So... no. It is official. WotC says so... ;) Plus... I think we're really overthinking this here. No one has yet said you can't do a lethal coup de gras to a troll with fire or acid... so... just... have your players use fire or acid. That's how I've done it. Someone sees the troll regenerating, and keeps stabbing it while it's down until the party can get a torch lit. Is it an improvised weapon? Yes. Can you coup de gras with an improvised weapon? No. (per RAW). Do I let them, because it makes no "sense" that you can't hold a torch to the body and watch it burn? Yes. ;)
Belkar 12-14-07, 09:59 AM	Another dissonant thought... Why not just drown it? Regen doesn't work against starvation/drowing... and since an unconscious creature begins to drown immediately... just hold it's head in a puddle, or something...lol... A wounding dagger would also be nice. When it's unconscious, just stab it repeatedly, until it's Con score drops to 0. Dead Troll. lol...
Derren S. 12-14-07, 10:04 AM	Edit: Nevermind. Overlooked a small sentence in the regeneration description. The others are correct. CdG a troll only works with fire or acid. Its better to suffocate/drown the trolls (that even works on the Tarrasque!).
RavenDrake 12-14-07, 10:51 AM	That's how I've done it. Someone sees the troll regenerating, and keeps stabbing it while it's down until the party can get a torch lit. Is it an improvised weapon? Yes. Can you coup de gras with an improvised weapon? No. (per RAW). Do I let them, because it makes no "sense" that you can't hold a torch to the body and watch it burn? Yes. ;) One question: what makes you think you can't make a coup de grace with an improvised weapon? I can't find any mention of it anywhere in the Helpless Defender's sectio where they describe the Coup de Grace, nor anything in the description of improised weapons that would preclude it.
Belkar 12-14-07, 11:39 AM	One question: what makes you think you can't make a coup de grace with an improvised weapon? I can't find any mention of it anywhere in the Helpless Defender's sectio where they describe the Coup de Grace, nor anything in the description of improised weapons that would preclude it. Really? Could have sworn... But upon checking up myself - you are correct. I think my brain took the link between no sneak attack and an non-proficient weapon and imposed it on coup de grace and improvised. Not sure why. Oh well! :) Now I don't feel guiltly for using rule 0! Cause I didn't use rule0! Woo hoo! Seriously, though... the drowning thing is just hilarious. Can't you see a bunch of low-level troll hunters carrying waterskins and bowls into a fight? "All right... he's unconscious..." "Quickly! Roll him over and put his face in the bowl! Die you scum!!!" lol...
risner 12-14-07, 12:01 PM	Hi there! I was just wondering if Coup de Grace works on trolls and other regenerating creatures? Thanks! If they are valid targets for CdG, then yes. You need to use lethal damage to CdG. The point being that the coup de grace text only references 'DAMAGE', not 'LETHAL damage', and as such, non-lethal damage (since it is still damage, though of a different kind than the lethal variety) is counted in full. Any rule to the contrary (unless someone can pull up a reference to coup de grace attempts that states otherwise) is a house-rule, regardless of how reasonable it may seem, or even be. nonlethal is not damage. nonlethal is nonlethal damage. When the word "damage" is used, it refers to lethal hit point damage. When other types of damage is allowed, it will say nonlethal damage or ability damage. This is a very old argument and is based on reading more into the text that is present. Your position isn't RAW, it is RAI or RAILT (rules as I like them), but it isn't RAW.
Derren S. 12-14-07, 12:11 PM	If they are valid targets for CdG, then yes. You need to use lethal damage to CdG. nonlethal is not damage. nonlethal is nonlethal damage. Damage is damage no matter if lethal or nonlethal. But the Regeneration quality says that to CdG a creature with regeneration you have to use a weapon which deals normal damage to this creature.
1 ton ghost 12-14-07, 12:22 PM	usually it's a moot point after it goes "negative"; all the PCs dog-pile on the damned thing and perforate the Hell out of it. someone, eventually Spots/Heal checks to see it's growing back and a solution is reached, typically via a Tingertwig and the dwarf's favorite whiskey, etc. now, this can be a problem for high wind or aquatic environs (though skrags only Regen IN WATER), etc. whoever said, "drown it." i like where your head's at. i think that is the simplest/fastest solution. failing that, does decapitation have any effect? i know for vampires and the like. perhaps this is why a great many of the new (and exceedingly numerous) troll species have Fast Healing, not Regen for simplicity of game.
Derren S. 12-14-07, 12:26 PM	failing that, does decapitation have any effect? i know for vampires and the like. Doesn't work on trolls. Unless they are killed they regenerate everything which was cut off. But that leads to the question if cutting off their head automatically suffocates them...
Celas Evriamytholin 12-14-07, 02:46 PM	My question has been thoroughly answered, thank you for all the colorful responses :P I have to admit, drowning it never occured to me. It almost sounds more inhumane than burning it ;p.
Mirannan 12-14-07, 03:07 PM	Common sense should always rule. As an example of this: I was playing in a game where the party was fighting scrags (sea trolls) underwater using potions of water breathing. One of the trolls was down; the others were fully engaged with party members. What happened? Simple. I did what is probably described in the RAW as a coup de grace, and stuck a siangham into its left eye so my character could just grip the end of it, and started wiggling it about (thus churning up its brain) and kept doing this until we got the chance to haul the thing out of the water. After the first attack I was not asked to make any more rolls; I think that the DM was right in that decision. Anyway, it worked.
RavenDrake 12-15-07, 12:37 AM	Damage is damage no matter if lethal or nonlethal. But the Regeneration quality says that to CdG a creature with regeneration you have to use a weapon which deals normal damage to this creature. That's not what regenerations says, though. It says that an attack that could cause instant death(such as a Coup de Grace) only threatens the creature with death if it's dealt by an attack that deals normal damage to the creature. You can still perform the CDG with any weapon or attack that could normally be used, but unless the attack deals lethal damage then the creature doesn't have to make thier save against instant death.
NoldorForce 12-15-07, 02:15 AM	Doesn't work on trolls. Unless they are killed they regenerate everything which was cut off. But that leads to the question if cutting off their head automatically suffocates them...They'd likely suffocate beforehand; regeneration (except possibly if you're dealing with the Tarrasque) does not bypass suffocation, starvation, or dehydration. For what it's worth, one houserule I've seen a bit (as in Mirannan's case) is to allow a nonlethal coup de grace...with the caveat that the target instead is effectively put into unconsciousness by nonlethal damage.
FrostHammer 12-15-07, 02:57 AM	Look, just knock it out with a non-lethal coup-de-grace, and then suffocate/drown it. Simple.
NoldorForce 12-15-07, 10:56 PM	Look, just knock it out with a non-lethal coup-de-grace, and then suffocate/drown it. Simple.Er, a nonlethal coup de grace is a houserule (albeit a reasonable one).