Coup de Grace with a Natural Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Coup de Grace with a Natural Weapon? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SKB
09-23-06, 02:12 AM Can a Coup de Grace be made with a Natural Weapon (claw, bite, talon, etc.)?

SRD: For Reference:

Coup de Grace

As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.

You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.

You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
__DnD4Life__
09-23-06, 02:39 AM Sure. There is nothing against it, and you can attack with it normally, and you threaten with natural weapons. You just deal double damage, since the critical multiplier on a natual weapon is always 20/x2.
Damionte
09-23-06, 05:13 AM Anything you attack with that is not ranged is a melle weapon.
Tetsubo
09-23-06, 07:09 AM Anything you attack with that is not ranged is a melle weapon.

What about Touch spells?
Thiez
09-23-06, 07:38 AM The damage does not come from the melee touch attack, but from the spell. Spells cannot perform a coup de grace.

That is, I allow my players to coup de grace with spells that require a touch attack and can score a critical hit, or with a ranged spell that requires a touch attack and can score a critical, as if it were a crossbow. But that is a houserule.
Bulletproof_Condom
09-23-06, 12:12 PM What about Touch spells?So long as it's not a ranged touch attack.
SKB
09-23-06, 02:03 PM Here is the thing though...Coup de Grace is not an "attack action" it is a special Full-Round action on its own. An attack roll is nevermade, therefore, a natural 20 or a natural 1 to miss or a critical fumble is never possible.

The PHB has a specific definition for "melee weapon."
PHB page 310: melee weapon: A handheld weapon designed for close combat.

In addition, "natural weapons" are also defined in the PHB.
PHB page 310: natural weapon: A creature's body part that deals damage in combat. Natural weapons include teeth, claws, horns, tails, and other appendages.

...possibilities?
__DnD4Life__
09-23-06, 03:08 PM So long as it's not a ranged touch attack.
Why not? You can perform a CdG with a longbow, so why not a ranged touch, or ray? They have critical multipliers, so can Critical hit. Would you allow a CdG with a scorching ray?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SKB 09-23-06, 02:12 AM	Can a Coup de Grace be made with a Natural Weapon (claw, bite, talon, etc.)? SRD: For Reference: Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires two consecutive full-round actions (one to "find" the creature once you’ve determined what square it’s in, and one to deliver the coup de grace).
__DnD4Life__ 09-23-06, 02:39 AM	Sure. There is nothing against it, and you can attack with it normally, and you threaten with natural weapons. You just deal double damage, since the critical multiplier on a natual weapon is always 20/x2.
Damionte 09-23-06, 05:13 AM	Anything you attack with that is not ranged is a melle weapon.
Tetsubo 09-23-06, 07:09 AM	Anything you attack with that is not ranged is a melle weapon. What about Touch spells?
Thiez 09-23-06, 07:38 AM	The damage does not come from the melee touch attack, but from the spell. Spells cannot perform a coup de grace. That is, I allow my players to coup de grace with spells that require a touch attack and can score a critical hit, or with a ranged spell that requires a touch attack and can score a critical, as if it were a crossbow. But that is a houserule.
Bulletproof_Condom 09-23-06, 12:12 PM	What about Touch spells?So long as it's not a ranged touch attack.
SKB 09-23-06, 02:03 PM	Here is the thing though...Coup de Grace is not an "attack action" it is a special Full-Round action on its own. An attack roll is nevermade, therefore, a natural 20 or a natural 1 to miss or a critical fumble is never possible. The PHB has a specific definition for "melee weapon." PHB page 310: melee weapon: A handheld weapon designed for close combat. In addition, "natural weapons" are also defined in the PHB. PHB page 310: natural weapon: A creature's body part that deals damage in combat. Natural weapons include teeth, claws, horns, tails, and other appendages. ...possibilities?
__DnD4Life__ 09-23-06, 03:08 PM	So long as it's not a ranged touch attack. Why not? You can perform a CdG with a longbow, so why not a ranged touch, or ray? They have critical multipliers, so can Critical hit. Would you allow a CdG with a scorching ray?