Post/Author/DateTime	Post
antsterr 10-16-06, 04:14 AM	Just wondering what the interpretation of the RAW is on this. I wasn't sure at the time but I allowed my group to try it because first of all, I had 4th level characters against trolls and secondly the description was really cool. The cleric cast hold person on one troll as it tried to run away with a halfling in it's hands, a fighter then came and declared a coup de grace by shoving two a globes of acid down in to it's throat and then punching it in the neck to smash the acid globes inside. I said the troll, still magically held had acid eat out it's neck it's head fell off, dead. They then managed to rope and hog-tie the second one with a command spell of lay down and some fast use rope work (also perhaps a stretch of the rules). They then shoved a globe acid up it's nose and a dwarven barbarian smashed it in the face with the back of a dwarven war axe. It was just to cool to say no to even though I really don't know the rules on this. Any comments?
Tyler Do'Urden 10-16-06, 05:46 AM	Well you could try using the actual mechanics for a coup de grace. If the target is helpless you can, as a full-round action, automatically crit with one weapon, then if the damage didn't kill him, he'd make a Fortitude save DC 10 + damage dealt, or die. A crit with an acid flask would be 2d6 damage. If he used two, 4d6.
runestar 10-16-06, 08:28 AM	Coup de grad is just a fancy way of saying: auto crit.;)
Qube 10-16-06, 09:07 AM	Well you could try using the actual mechanics for a coup de grace. If the target is helpless you can, as a full-round action, automatically crit with one weapon, then if the damage didn't kill him, he'd make a Fortitude save DC 10 + damage dealt, or die. A crit with an acid flask would be 2d6 damage. If he used two, 4d6. indd: I use 1d6 per flask. my characters currently walks around with 2 clay jugs of oil (don't ask). if i could the grace with it (= pour it over the enemy + light it on fire) -> coup the grace for 16d6 (2x 8d6). which is not THAT great: if you can coup the grace you probablty already won + rogues (or touch-attack wizards) do killer coup the graces (pun intended). mine costs me 1 full round to poor + still need a tindertwig, wich all are valuable resources.
Longarms 10-16-06, 03:14 PM	Coup de grace is really a mechanic for finishing off an opponent during a combat rounds. I say this because coup de grace is listed as a full round action, which implies that it is a combat action. What you describe does not sound like it was occuring during combat rounds; therefore, there is no real time pressure, no other opponents to observe on the battle field. I see no reason to stick to the strict mechanics of coup de grace for such a situation. I think you did the right thing by winging it. You have some pretty violent players though.
antsterr 10-16-06, 04:12 PM	This was all in melee combat. The Coup de grace was hardly used to finish the troll, he was still at full health and next round would have attempted a will save to break free of the hold person spell. I did use the mechanic, first 2D6x2 for a fort save of about 20, then for the second one I decided add hoc that 1d6x2 points of acid damage exploding in side your head is just too much for one troll to deal with, that I just declared he failed the fort save, though by mechanics he had too high a bonus to fail. But these were all new players who don't really know the rules and don't care anyway if I fudge things from time to time.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 10-17-06, 12:22 AM	By the RAW, no: Coup de Grace As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target. You automatically hit and score a critical hit. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die. A rogue also gets her extra sneak attack damage against a helpless opponent when delivering a coup de grace. and A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact, splashing or scattering its contents over its target and nearby creatures or objects. To attack with a splash weapon, make a ranged touch attack against the target. Splash weapons are neither melee weapons nor a bow/crossbow, so they can't be used for CdG. Allowing it seems to be a common houserule, though, and is probably a decent one: without it, there aren't many good ways to deal with Trolls short of knocking them far out and sticking their heads in a bucket of water. (And, for that matter, it sounds like the players probably enjoyed your ruling more than they would have the RAW, which makes your ruling better for your game, IMHO.)
antsterr 10-17-06, 01:46 AM	By the RAW, no: Splash weapons are neither melee weapons nor a bow/crossbow, so they can't be used for CdG. Allowing it seems to be a common houserule, though, and is probably a decent one: without it, there aren't many good ways to deal with Trolls short of knocking them far out and sticking their heads in a bucket of water. (And, for that matter, it sounds like the players probably enjoyed your ruling more than they would have the RAW, which makes your ruling better for your game, IMHO.) Thank you Just for interest, the back up plan my players had after the tied up the second troll was pull tight on a loop around it's neck until it suffocated. For first time players I was very impressed with their creativity.
Qube 10-17-06, 01:53 AM	This was all in melee combat. The Coup de grace was hardly used to finish the troll, he was still at full health and next round would have attempted a will save to break free of the hold person spell. I did use the mechanic, first 2D6x2 for a fort save of about 20, then for the second one I decided add hoc that 1d6x2 points of acid damage exploding in side your head is just too much for one troll to deal with, that I just declared he failed the fort save, though by mechanics he had too high a bonus to fail. But these were all new players who don't really know the rules and don't care anyway if I fudge things from time to time. the troll won't need a will save vs hold person: its not a humanoid (its againt). you needed 'hold monster' the only doable way to kill a troll on low level is fight it until it goes K.O., and then let the rogue coup the grace it with a torch, acid flask or alchemist fire, while the others keep bashing it (see hitting helpless characters) so that it stays K.O.
WinDReiN 10-17-06, 03:53 AM	Can monks perform cdg with their fists, or some monster with his claw attack?
Tyler Do'Urden 10-17-06, 05:22 AM	Yes. Both are melee weapons. You can take a -4 to the attack to deal lethal damage with a nonlethal weapon, but it doesn't matter because a coup de grace is an automatic crit. You don't have to be a monk to do a coup unarmed, but it helps.