Couple of Grapple questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Couple of Grapple questions [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Talon Stormwarden
08-11-05, 12:46 PM I seem to remember some special rule about attacking someone who's involved in a grapple, but can't find anything other than the loss of dex by the grappling target (and an additional -4 to AC if pinned). I know with Bullrush there's a 25% chance to hit the other target involved rather than your intended target. Maybe that's what I'm recalling, but something similar would seem to fit for grapple situations as well. I cannot however find anything in the rules about it.

The subject of a crit with a grapple check came up last session. My ruling is that it's not an attack and crits don't apply, but I can see a house rule if desired. By RAW, no grapple crits correct? What about on the initial touch attack? The crit rules can easly apply there since it is an attack, but what effect would a successful crit have?
peanut35
08-11-05, 12:58 PM Check out the SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html

also, in a touch attack to see if you can grapple, there is no actual damage dealt, and so even if you said yes, you crit, at best you could just say that there is a guaranteed grapple, ie, no opposed check, on a nat 20, but that would be House. Since no damage is dealt in a touch attack in a grapple attempt, there can be no critical dmaage dealt, you can't insta-kill someone by criting on them with a grapple attempt.
Talon Stormwarden
08-11-05, 01:11 PM Check out the SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html

Well, that's the same as what's in the PHB, which I have here in front of me. I was looking for an answer to my direct question, 'Is there a special rule for attacking someone who is involved in a grapple, beyond the loss of dex or the additional -4 AC when pinned?' I'm not seeing it there, so I guess your answer is 'no'? Was it there in 3.0 maybe? Or perhaps I'm simply thinking of the bullrush rule and extending it to a similar situation, grappling. The players have the same impression, so I wonder if it's simply a common house rule or if it actually existed at some point.

also, in a touch attack to see if you can grapple, there is no actual damage dealt, and so even if you said yes, you crit, at best you could just say that there is a guaranteed grapple, ie, no opposed check, on a nat 20, but that would be House. Since no damage is dealt in a touch attack in a grapple attempt, there can be no critical dmaage dealt, you can't insta-kill someone by criting on them with a grapple attempt.

/nod Seemed to be the answer, thanks for the confirm.
jaelis
08-11-05, 01:27 PM If you make a ranged attack against a combatant who is grappling, you have to roll randomly to see who you strike. Is that what you were thinking of?

I think it's a footnote on the "combat modifiers" table in the PHB.
peanut35
08-11-05, 01:29 PM I'm sorry, i thought you were looking for the loss of Dex rule, not more than that, i read your question wrong. As far as i know there are no additional rules. When you are in a grapple, due to loss of dex, you can be sneak-attacked and such. I supposed you could house rule it like shooting range into melee, but there would be no feat to by-pass that like precise, and also, it would be a waste of a feat if there was one, unless you tack'd it on to another feat, like Combat Brute or such.

So speciafically, were you looking for a miss-chance? or something else?

The dex loss is huge due to special attacks and such, like sneak, and the loss due to Dex.
Centauri
08-11-05, 01:30 PM The rule is secreted away as a footnote to a table and as a "Normal" description to Improved Precise Shot: when attacking a target involved in a grapple, roll randomly to determine which creature in the grapple you actually target (and that target loses its Dex bonus to AC). To me, that says if two creatures are grappling, you have a 50% chance to hit either one with a ranged attack. If three, then a 33% chance, etc. That doesn't take the sizes of the grapplers into consideration, but that's probably okay.
kjenks
08-11-05, 02:43 PM Yes, you can make a critical hit with a grapple.

"A grapple check is like a melee attack roll." The old 3e FAQ noted that this includes auto-success on a natural 20 and auto-failure on a natural 1.

The PH says you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20...

SRD
===
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.
===

So it's perfectly reasonable to rule that, since a grapple check is like a melee attack roll and since you threaten a critical on a natural 20 with an attack roll, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit (20/x2). This would be confirmed by another grapple check.

But, as you can see here, there are people who don't see it that way. Other than the old 3e FAQ entry, there have been no other FAQ or errata entries that confirm or deny the ability to make a critical hit with a grapple check. And the 3.5e FAQ is self-contradictory on how much a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. So show this thread to your DM and just live with his ruling.

This is no big deal. Grapple damage is usually just 1d3+Str nonlethal. So whatever works for your DM probably won't change the game one way or another.
Talon Stormwarden
08-11-05, 03:40 PM Yes, you can make a critical hit with a grapple.

"A grapple check is like a melee attack roll." The old 3e FAQ noted that this includes auto-success on a natural 20 and auto-failure on a natural 1.

The PH says you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20...

SRD
===
Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit.
===

So it's perfectly reasonable to rule that, since a grapple check is like a melee attack roll and since you threaten a critical on a natural 20 with an attack roll, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit (20/x2). This would be confirmed by another grapple check.

But, as you can see here, there are people who don't see it that way. Other than the old 3e FAQ entry, there have been no other FAQ or errata entries that confirm or deny the ability to make a critical hit with a grapple check. And the 3.5e FAQ is self-contradictory on how much a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. So show this thread to your DM and just live with his ruling.

This is no big deal. Grapple damage is usually just 1d3+Str nonlethal. So whatever works for your DM probably won't change the game one way or another.

Well, that was my initial ruling, though I decided to reverse it if it came up again. It could be argued either way really. After further thought, I'll probably go back to my gut call at the time it happened and allow a crit, confirming against the opposed grapple check again.

The rule is secreted away as a footnote to a table and as a "Normal" description to Improved Precise Shot: when attacking a target involved in a grapple, roll randomly to determine which creature in the grapple you actually target (and that target loses its Dex bonus to AC). To me, that says if two creatures are grappling, you have a 50% chance to hit either one with a ranged attack. If three, then a 33% chance, etc. That doesn't take the sizes of the grapplers into consideration, but that's probably okay.

Thanks Centauri, that's what I was looking for, though I thought it applied to melee as well. If I were to guess at their reasoning I'd say it's because you have more control during a melee attack than ranged, same reason there's a -4 to hit with ranged attacks on a melee combatant, whereas there's no penalty for a melee attack. The 25% mis-target chance during a bullrush, even for melee attacks, doesn't quite fit IMO.
Centauri
08-11-05, 03:50 PM The 25% mis-target chance during a bullrush, even for melee attacks, doesn't quite fit IMO. My thought on that is that a bullrush is just pushing someone in your direction of travel. There's no twisting or rolling like in a grapple. If you're trying to hit someone in a bullrush as they go past, it's just a matter of timing your attack. Or something. Also, a grapple is what I think of when I imagine using someone as a human shield, so the greater randomness for ranged attacks into a grapple makes sense to me.
Talon Stormwarden
08-11-05, 04:06 PM My thought on that is that a bullrush is just pushing someone in your direction of travel. There's no twisting or rolling like in a grapple. If you're trying to hit someone in a bullrush as they go past, it's just a matter of timing your attack. Or something. Also, a grapple is what I think of when I imagine using someone as a human shield, so the greater randomness for ranged attacks into a grapple makes sense to me.

Hrm, but though there's no twisting and turning in a bullrush and there is in a grapple, there is a mistarget chance in a bullrush but none in a grapple. Talking about melee here. If I understand what you're saying correctly, that seems to be opposite the way it should be, by that reasoning anyway.

I just noticed another interesting distiction. The 25% mistarget chance in a bullrush is only for attacks of opportunity. Granted, regular attacks would be rare in this situation, but not impossible. An attack could be readied to strike at a target who may be in the middle of a bullrush at the time the readied attack is triggered. The readied attack would not get the mistarget chance then, according to RAW.
Centauri
08-11-05, 04:15 PM Hrm, but though there's no twisting and turning in a bullrush and there is in a grapple, there is a mistarget chance in a bullrush but none in a grapple. Ah, I see. I had forgotten the rules.

The readied attack would not get the mistarget chance then, according to RAW. Well, perhaps we could explain this by saying that the character with the readied action has taken the time to aim his strike. Not sure. That is strange. I haven't had much occassion to try bullrushes, so I'm not familiar with how they play out. Same with grapples, for that matter.
ShinAkuma2
08-11-05, 11:40 PM I was hoping to find a topic like this.

I'm kind of hoping for more clarification on some grappling stuff...

Specifically, I'm not sure of exactly what a pin does. I know it imposes a -4 AC penalty, but is that it? It says it holds the opponent "immobile", and I thought that meant he could take no action, except to try to break the pin. Is the -4 AC all that you get for immobilizing an opponent?

Second, I'm not sure how long "pinning" itself lasts for. It says your opponent is immobile for 1 round...but it doesn't say he's pinned for only one round. Are the terms synonymous in this instance?

Also, I'm not sure how Earth's Embrace (Complete Warrior) works. It says it deals +1d12 damage...What is it adding to? Pinning normally doesn't do damage, by my understanding. Also, when should it be "activated"? Do I pin the guy this round, and, assuming he doesn't break out on his turn, then pin him again to do the damage?

Help me out!...please?
IceFractal
08-12-05, 03:22 AM Once you've pinned someone, you can do your unarmed damage to them with a successful grapple check, as you can when grappling, so the +1d12 damage would apply to this. It might also apply to the check where you pin them, doing just 1d12 by itself in that case.
GemX
08-12-05, 07:03 AM According to the SRD...

Starting the Grapple: You start with a melee touch attack. A 20 is an automatic hit, which is an automatic grapple (unless you get AoOd for damage without the improved grapple feat.)

Make an opposed Grapple check: If you succeed, deal unarmed damage to the opponent as if with an unarmed strike.

Damaging opponents in grapples: Because you make opposed grapple checks instead of melee attack rolls, you don't critical.

Power Attack. Can only be activated by a melee attack roll, starting the grapple is a melee touch attack, but opposed grapple checks are not. The touch can activate the damage bonus for that round though.
Traevanon
08-12-05, 07:07 AM Earth's Embrace only adds +d12 damage when the subject is pinned, not when he is merely grappled.

Pinning normally gives the -4 AC AND it opens new options for the grappler AND limits options for the held person. It also puts the held person TWO grapple checks from being free instead of one.

Let me see if I can find page numbers and such for you:
Earth's Embrace, CW Pg 97
Pinned and Pinning, PHB Pg 156 (bottom) and Pg 157 (top)
Merestil Haye
08-12-05, 08:06 AM According to the SRD...

Starting the Grapple: You start with a melee touch attack. A 20 is an automatic hit,Correct. which is an automatic grapple (unless you get AoOd for damage without the improved grapple feat.)Not correct.

Nowhere does it say that if you roll a natural 20 on the touch attack that you automatically start the grapple. You still have to win an immediate grapple check to convert the touch into a hold.

Here is the SRD's actual text.Starting a Grapple

To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses).

Step 1
Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2.

Step 2
Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3.

Step 3
Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action.

If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike.

If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are.

In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie.

Step 4
Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.)

Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target.

If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.As you can see, hitting the target with the touch attack (step 2) and establishing a hold (step 3) are speparate and distinct, and nowhere does it say you automatically establish the hold if the touch attack roll is a natural 20.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Talon Stormwarden 08-11-05, 12:46 PM	I seem to remember some special rule about attacking someone who's involved in a grapple, but can't find anything other than the loss of dex by the grappling target (and an additional -4 to AC if pinned). I know with Bullrush there's a 25% chance to hit the other target involved rather than your intended target. Maybe that's what I'm recalling, but something similar would seem to fit for grapple situations as well. I cannot however find anything in the rules about it. The subject of a crit with a grapple check came up last session. My ruling is that it's not an attack and crits don't apply, but I can see a house rule if desired. By RAW, no grapple crits correct? What about on the initial touch attack? The crit rules can easly apply there since it is an attack, but what effect would a successful crit have?
peanut35 08-11-05, 12:58 PM	Check out the SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html also, in a touch attack to see if you can grapple, there is no actual damage dealt, and so even if you said yes, you crit, at best you could just say that there is a guaranteed grapple, ie, no opposed check, on a nat 20, but that would be House. Since no damage is dealt in a touch attack in a grapple attempt, there can be no critical dmaage dealt, you can't insta-kill someone by criting on them with a grapple attempt.
Talon Stormwarden 08-11-05, 01:11 PM	Check out the SRD: http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/specialAttacks.html Well, that's the same as what's in the PHB, which I have here in front of me. I was looking for an answer to my direct question, 'Is there a special rule for attacking someone who is involved in a grapple, beyond the loss of dex or the additional -4 AC when pinned?' I'm not seeing it there, so I guess your answer is 'no'? Was it there in 3.0 maybe? Or perhaps I'm simply thinking of the bullrush rule and extending it to a similar situation, grappling. The players have the same impression, so I wonder if it's simply a common house rule or if it actually existed at some point. also, in a touch attack to see if you can grapple, there is no actual damage dealt, and so even if you said yes, you crit, at best you could just say that there is a guaranteed grapple, ie, no opposed check, on a nat 20, but that would be House. Since no damage is dealt in a touch attack in a grapple attempt, there can be no critical dmaage dealt, you can't insta-kill someone by criting on them with a grapple attempt. /nod Seemed to be the answer, thanks for the confirm.
jaelis 08-11-05, 01:27 PM	If you make a ranged attack against a combatant who is grappling, you have to roll randomly to see who you strike. Is that what you were thinking of? I think it's a footnote on the "combat modifiers" table in the PHB.
peanut35 08-11-05, 01:29 PM	I'm sorry, i thought you were looking for the loss of Dex rule, not more than that, i read your question wrong. As far as i know there are no additional rules. When you are in a grapple, due to loss of dex, you can be sneak-attacked and such. I supposed you could house rule it like shooting range into melee, but there would be no feat to by-pass that like precise, and also, it would be a waste of a feat if there was one, unless you tack'd it on to another feat, like Combat Brute or such. So speciafically, were you looking for a miss-chance? or something else? The dex loss is huge due to special attacks and such, like sneak, and the loss due to Dex.
Centauri 08-11-05, 01:30 PM	The rule is secreted away as a footnote to a table and as a "Normal" description to Improved Precise Shot: when attacking a target involved in a grapple, roll randomly to determine which creature in the grapple you actually target (and that target loses its Dex bonus to AC). To me, that says if two creatures are grappling, you have a 50% chance to hit either one with a ranged attack. If three, then a 33% chance, etc. That doesn't take the sizes of the grapplers into consideration, but that's probably okay.
kjenks 08-11-05, 02:43 PM	Yes, you can make a critical hit with a grapple. "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll." The old 3e FAQ noted that this includes auto-success on a natural 20 and auto-failure on a natural 1. The PH says you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20... SRD === Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit. === So it's perfectly reasonable to rule that, since a grapple check is like a melee attack roll and since you threaten a critical on a natural 20 with an attack roll, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit (20/x2). This would be confirmed by another grapple check. But, as you can see here, there are people who don't see it that way. Other than the old 3e FAQ entry, there have been no other FAQ or errata entries that confirm or deny the ability to make a critical hit with a grapple check. And the 3.5e FAQ is self-contradictory on how much a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. So show this thread to your DM and just live with his ruling. This is no big deal. Grapple damage is usually just 1d3+Str nonlethal. So whatever works for your DM probably won't change the game one way or another.
Talon Stormwarden 08-11-05, 03:40 PM	Yes, you can make a critical hit with a grapple. "A grapple check is like a melee attack roll." The old 3e FAQ noted that this includes auto-success on a natural 20 and auto-failure on a natural 1. The PH says you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20... SRD === Automatic Misses and Hits: A natural 1 (the d20 comes up 1) on an attack roll is always a miss. A natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20) is always a hit. A natural 20 is also a threat—a possible critical hit. === So it's perfectly reasonable to rule that, since a grapple check is like a melee attack roll and since you threaten a critical on a natural 20 with an attack roll, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit (20/x2). This would be confirmed by another grapple check. But, as you can see here, there are people who don't see it that way. Other than the old 3e FAQ entry, there have been no other FAQ or errata entries that confirm or deny the ability to make a critical hit with a grapple check. And the 3.5e FAQ is self-contradictory on how much a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. So show this thread to your DM and just live with his ruling. This is no big deal. Grapple damage is usually just 1d3+Str nonlethal. So whatever works for your DM probably won't change the game one way or another. Well, that was my initial ruling, though I decided to reverse it if it came up again. It could be argued either way really. After further thought, I'll probably go back to my gut call at the time it happened and allow a crit, confirming against the opposed grapple check again. The rule is secreted away as a footnote to a table and as a "Normal" description to Improved Precise Shot: when attacking a target involved in a grapple, roll randomly to determine which creature in the grapple you actually target (and that target loses its Dex bonus to AC). To me, that says if two creatures are grappling, you have a 50% chance to hit either one with a ranged attack. If three, then a 33% chance, etc. That doesn't take the sizes of the grapplers into consideration, but that's probably okay. Thanks Centauri, that's what I was looking for, though I thought it applied to melee as well. If I were to guess at their reasoning I'd say it's because you have more control during a melee attack than ranged, same reason there's a -4 to hit with ranged attacks on a melee combatant, whereas there's no penalty for a melee attack. The 25% mis-target chance during a bullrush, even for melee attacks, doesn't quite fit IMO.
Centauri 08-11-05, 03:50 PM	The 25% mis-target chance during a bullrush, even for melee attacks, doesn't quite fit IMO. My thought on that is that a bullrush is just pushing someone in your direction of travel. There's no twisting or rolling like in a grapple. If you're trying to hit someone in a bullrush as they go past, it's just a matter of timing your attack. Or something. Also, a grapple is what I think of when I imagine using someone as a human shield, so the greater randomness for ranged attacks into a grapple makes sense to me.
Talon Stormwarden 08-11-05, 04:06 PM	My thought on that is that a bullrush is just pushing someone in your direction of travel. There's no twisting or rolling like in a grapple. If you're trying to hit someone in a bullrush as they go past, it's just a matter of timing your attack. Or something. Also, a grapple is what I think of when I imagine using someone as a human shield, so the greater randomness for ranged attacks into a grapple makes sense to me. Hrm, but though there's no twisting and turning in a bullrush and there is in a grapple, there is a mistarget chance in a bullrush but none in a grapple. Talking about melee here. If I understand what you're saying correctly, that seems to be opposite the way it should be, by that reasoning anyway. I just noticed another interesting distiction. The 25% mistarget chance in a bullrush is only for attacks of opportunity. Granted, regular attacks would be rare in this situation, but not impossible. An attack could be readied to strike at a target who may be in the middle of a bullrush at the time the readied attack is triggered. The readied attack would not get the mistarget chance then, according to RAW.
Centauri 08-11-05, 04:15 PM	Hrm, but though there's no twisting and turning in a bullrush and there is in a grapple, there is a mistarget chance in a bullrush but none in a grapple. Ah, I see. I had forgotten the rules. The readied attack would not get the mistarget chance then, according to RAW. Well, perhaps we could explain this by saying that the character with the readied action has taken the time to aim his strike. Not sure. That is strange. I haven't had much occassion to try bullrushes, so I'm not familiar with how they play out. Same with grapples, for that matter.
ShinAkuma2 08-11-05, 11:40 PM	I was hoping to find a topic like this. I'm kind of hoping for more clarification on some grappling stuff... Specifically, I'm not sure of exactly what a pin does. I know it imposes a -4 AC penalty, but is that it? It says it holds the opponent "immobile", and I thought that meant he could take no action, except to try to break the pin. Is the -4 AC all that you get for immobilizing an opponent? Second, I'm not sure how long "pinning" itself lasts for. It says your opponent is immobile for 1 round...but it doesn't say he's pinned for only one round. Are the terms synonymous in this instance? Also, I'm not sure how Earth's Embrace (Complete Warrior) works. It says it deals +1d12 damage...What is it adding to? Pinning normally doesn't do damage, by my understanding. Also, when should it be "activated"? Do I pin the guy this round, and, assuming he doesn't break out on his turn, then pin him again to do the damage? Help me out!...please?
IceFractal 08-12-05, 03:22 AM	Once you've pinned someone, you can do your unarmed damage to them with a successful grapple check, as you can when grappling, so the +1d12 damage would apply to this. It might also apply to the check where you pin them, doing just 1d12 by itself in that case.
GemX 08-12-05, 07:03 AM	According to the SRD... Starting the Grapple: You start with a melee touch attack. A 20 is an automatic hit, which is an automatic grapple (unless you get AoOd for damage without the improved grapple feat.) Make an opposed Grapple check: If you succeed, deal unarmed damage to the opponent as if with an unarmed strike. Damaging opponents in grapples: Because you make opposed grapple checks instead of melee attack rolls, you don't critical. Power Attack. Can only be activated by a melee attack roll, starting the grapple is a melee touch attack, but opposed grapple checks are not. The touch can activate the damage bonus for that round though.
Traevanon 08-12-05, 07:07 AM	Earth's Embrace only adds +d12 damage when the subject is pinned, not when he is merely grappled. Pinning normally gives the -4 AC AND it opens new options for the grappler AND limits options for the held person. It also puts the held person TWO grapple checks from being free instead of one. Let me see if I can find page numbers and such for you: Earth's Embrace, CW Pg 97 Pinned and Pinning, PHB Pg 156 (bottom) and Pg 157 (top)
Merestil Haye 08-12-05, 08:06 AM	According to the SRD... Starting the Grapple: You start with a melee touch attack. A 20 is an automatic hit,Correct. which is an automatic grapple (unless you get AoOd for damage without the improved grapple feat.)Not correct. Nowhere does it say that if you roll a natural 20 on the touch attack that you automatically start the grapple. You still have to win an immediate grapple check to convert the touch into a hold. Here is the SRD's actual text.Starting a Grapple To start a grapple, you need to grab and hold your target. Starting a grapple requires a successful melee attack roll. If you get multiple attacks, you can attempt to start a grapple multiple times (at successively lower base attack bonuses). Step 1 Attack of Opportunity. You provoke an attack of opportunity from the target you are trying to grapple. If the attack of opportunity deals damage, the grapple attempt fails. (Certain monsters do not provoke attacks of opportunity when they attempt to grapple, nor do characters with the Improved Grapple feat.) If the attack of opportunity misses or fails to deal damage, proceed to Step 2. Step 2 Grab. You make a melee touch attack to grab the target. If you fail to hit the target, the grapple attempt fails. If you succeed, proceed to Step 3. Step 3 Hold. Make an opposed grapple check as a free action. If you succeed, you and your target are now grappling, and you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike. If you lose, you fail to start the grapple. You automatically lose an attempt to hold if the target is two or more size categories larger than you are. In case of a tie, the combatant with the higher grapple check modifier wins. If this is a tie, roll again to break the tie. Step 4 Maintain Grapple. To maintain the grapple for later rounds, you must move into the target’s space. (This movement is free and doesn’t count as part of your movement in the round.) Moving, as normal, provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents, but not from your target. If you can’t move into your target’s space, you can’t maintain the grapple and must immediately let go of the target. To grapple again, you must begin at Step 1.As you can see, hitting the target with the touch attack (step 2) and establishing a hold (step 3) are speparate and distinct, and nowhere does it say you automatically establish the hold if the touch attack roll is a natural 20.