CR x ECL x Treasure [Archive] - Wizards Community

CR x ECL x Treasure [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xixaloka
08-28-07, 08:47 AM Hi ppl , sorry my bad english ....

I have a big doubt and I like for any can help me to resolve???
Lets !

I create a char

One minotaur fighter – my campaing starter at level 10
So I create a minotaur with 2 levels of fighter.
(6 hitdices racial + 2 level adjustement + 2 fighter class) ECL 10

Now, my doubt begin.
If i create a NPC minotaur fighter , what CR of him ?
I think … CR 6 ( Minotaur CR 4 + 2 levels of fighter)
The same monster is more weak then a created char ?

And my ultimate doubt , how i calculate the treasure of this monster ?
To be based of CR or ECL ?

See:

A minotaur vampire fighter2 have a ECL 18 , right ?
(6hit dive racial + 2 level adjustement + 2 fighter class + 8 vampire)
But CR level is 10 ?
(4 minotaur + 2 vampire + 2 guerreiro)

And a treasure ? Corresponding to CR 10 or a ECL 18 ?
This make a big diference in balance of my campaing.

Pls help me !
Mindolin
08-28-07, 08:50 AM The CR does not matter for player characters, and you use the ECL for treasure.
Devlonir
08-28-07, 09:16 AM The CR does not matter for player characters, and you use the ECL for treasure.

That is like.. totally wrong.

The difference between CR and ECL is because some things are very powerful to have as a player character, but are considered normal for a monster.

Why is that so? Well, consider that a CR 4 creature is designed to be a normal challenge for a group of 4 lvl 4 adventurers. now, if you made a group consisting of 4 CR 4 creatures and let them fight that same CR 4 creature, it wouldnt even be close to a challenge, it would be a walk in the park (it is 4 to 1, kinda like beating that nerdy kid up in high school *just kidding*)

Therefore, that CR 4 creature actually gets an ECL of somewhere around 6 or 7, as that is how strong they actually are compared to CR 4 creatures in a group of 4.

I hope it helped in understanding the difference. So in your example.. both are just as strong, but the ECL 10 player character is assumed to have 3 more friends helping him.

Now, when it comes to treasure and experience.. you use the creatures CR or calculated EL (Encounter Level) to determine it. ECL (Effective Character Level) is only used when adding a monstrous race or template to a player character.
wonlee76
08-28-07, 09:23 AM Another reason why CR is typically lower than the ECL or LA when used for a player is monsters start with stats of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 prior to racial adjustments. PCs don't start with stats at that level. So a minotaur monster will be weaker to some degree than a PC minotaur.

ECL is basically calculated on the premise that all those monster abilities is now a fixture for a PC to use. So things like "at will" spell like abilities (Dominate Person for Vamps for example) may have a huge effect for a PC but a monster with that ability, not so much since it will in all liklihood use that ability in that one combat compared to a PC who may use that ability to create a bunch of dominated minions over a span of months/years.
runestar
08-28-07, 09:24 AM That is like.. totally wrong.

I don't see what's wrong with that. He is correct in that cr is not considered at all when determining what ECL should entail.

I hope it helped in understanding the difference. So in your example.. both are just as strong, but the ECL 10 player character is assumed to have 3 more friends helping him.

Actually, it is this explanation that is slightly erroneous. ECL10 means a minotaur fighter2 is considered the equivalent of a 10th lv PC in a standard party, while a cr6 minotaur fighter2 is considered a fair fight for a 6th lv party.

Also note that the ECL10 minotaur PC will have the advantage as he will be able to access wealth as appropriate for a 10th lv PC.
xixaloka
08-28-07, 11:01 AM Good , i understand the diference betwen ECL and CR , but i have only doubt...

See ...

My group (6 char level 10) engage a combat with a minotaur vampire fighter2
CR 10 right ? (4 minoutaur +2 fighter +2 vampire) .... if us kill the monster us gain a equivalent CR10 treasure correct ?

But if exist a player minotaur vampire fighter, the level is 18.
(6 hit dice racial + 2 LA + 2 Fighter +8 Vampire)
And if i kill the Character i gain a treasure equivalent a what CR ?

Tks for all helps !!!
Frugal
08-28-07, 11:06 AM Good , i understand the diference betwen ECL and CR , but i have only doubt...

See ...

My group (6 char level 10) engage a combat with a minotaur vampire fighter2
CR 10 right ? (4 minoutaur +2 fighter +2 vampire) .... if us kill the monster us gain a equivalent CR10 treasure correct ?

But if exist a player minotaur vampire fighter, the level is 18.
(6 hit dice racial + 2 LA + 2 Fighter +8 Vampire)
And if i kill the Character i gain a treasure equivalent a what CR ?

Tks for all helps !!!

Well generally you don't determine treasure for killing PCs as PCs killing PCs is generally discouraged. Now if you mean what starting wealth you should have, it's equal to that of the character's ECL. If nothing else, this is to balance with the rest of the party, the ECL 18 character is supposed to be playing with other 18th level characters (by character level or ECL) and if he's way back on equipment it's just going to suck. NPCs always have way less treasure because otherwise it would completely throw off the PCs' wealth (figure that it's an average of 13 encounters to level, if you fought 13 creatures with a CR equal to your level you'd end up with 13 times the recommended wealth for your level divided amongst the 4 party members by the time you leveled).
xixaloka
08-28-07, 12:44 PM Well generally you don't determine treasure for killing PCs as PCs killing PCs is generally discouraged. Now if you mean what starting wealth you should have, it's equal to that of the character's ECL. If nothing else, this is to balance with the rest of the party, the ECL 18 character is supposed to be playing with other 18th level characters (by character level or ECL) and if he's way back on equipment it's just going to suck. NPCs always have way less treasure because otherwise it would completely throw off the PCs' wealth (figure that it's an average of 13 encounters to level, if you fought 13 creatures with a CR equal to your level you'd end up with 13 times the recommended wealth for your level divided amongst the 4 party members by the time you leveled).

Perfect , now i understand !!!
Very Tks for All !!!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xixaloka 08-28-07, 08:47 AM	Hi ppl , sorry my bad english .... I have a big doubt and I like for any can help me to resolve??? Lets ! I create a char One minotaur fighter – my campaing starter at level 10 So I create a minotaur with 2 levels of fighter. (6 hitdices racial + 2 level adjustement + 2 fighter class) ECL 10 Now, my doubt begin. If i create a NPC minotaur fighter , what CR of him ? I think … CR 6 ( Minotaur CR 4 + 2 levels of fighter) The same monster is more weak then a created char ? And my ultimate doubt , how i calculate the treasure of this monster ? To be based of CR or ECL ? See: A minotaur vampire fighter2 have a ECL 18 , right ? (6hit dive racial + 2 level adjustement + 2 fighter class + 8 vampire) But CR level is 10 ? (4 minotaur + 2 vampire + 2 guerreiro) And a treasure ? Corresponding to CR 10 or a ECL 18 ? This make a big diference in balance of my campaing. Pls help me !
Mindolin 08-28-07, 08:50 AM	The CR does not matter for player characters, and you use the ECL for treasure.
Devlonir 08-28-07, 09:16 AM	The CR does not matter for player characters, and you use the ECL for treasure. That is like.. totally wrong. The difference between CR and ECL is because some things are very powerful to have as a player character, but are considered normal for a monster. Why is that so? Well, consider that a CR 4 creature is designed to be a normal challenge for a group of 4 lvl 4 adventurers. now, if you made a group consisting of 4 CR 4 creatures and let them fight that same CR 4 creature, it wouldnt even be close to a challenge, it would be a walk in the park (it is 4 to 1, kinda like beating that nerdy kid up in high school just kidding) Therefore, that CR 4 creature actually gets an ECL of somewhere around 6 or 7, as that is how strong they actually are compared to CR 4 creatures in a group of 4. I hope it helped in understanding the difference. So in your example.. both are just as strong, but the ECL 10 player character is assumed to have 3 more friends helping him. Now, when it comes to treasure and experience.. you use the creatures CR or calculated EL (Encounter Level) to determine it. ECL (Effective Character Level) is only used when adding a monstrous race or template to a player character.
wonlee76 08-28-07, 09:23 AM	Another reason why CR is typically lower than the ECL or LA when used for a player is monsters start with stats of 10, 10, 10, 11, 11, 11 prior to racial adjustments. PCs don't start with stats at that level. So a minotaur monster will be weaker to some degree than a PC minotaur. ECL is basically calculated on the premise that all those monster abilities is now a fixture for a PC to use. So things like "at will" spell like abilities (Dominate Person for Vamps for example) may have a huge effect for a PC but a monster with that ability, not so much since it will in all liklihood use that ability in that one combat compared to a PC who may use that ability to create a bunch of dominated minions over a span of months/years.
runestar 08-28-07, 09:24 AM	That is like.. totally wrong. I don't see what's wrong with that. He is correct in that cr is not considered at all when determining what ECL should entail. I hope it helped in understanding the difference. So in your example.. both are just as strong, but the ECL 10 player character is assumed to have 3 more friends helping him. Actually, it is this explanation that is slightly erroneous. ECL10 means a minotaur fighter2 is considered the equivalent of a 10th lv PC in a standard party, while a cr6 minotaur fighter2 is considered a fair fight for a 6th lv party. Also note that the ECL10 minotaur PC will have the advantage as he will be able to access wealth as appropriate for a 10th lv PC.
xixaloka 08-28-07, 11:01 AM	Good , i understand the diference betwen ECL and CR , but i have only doubt... See ... My group (6 char level 10) engage a combat with a minotaur vampire fighter2 CR 10 right ? (4 minoutaur +2 fighter +2 vampire) .... if us kill the monster us gain a equivalent CR10 treasure correct ? But if exist a player minotaur vampire fighter, the level is 18. (6 hit dice racial + 2 LA + 2 Fighter +8 Vampire) And if i kill the Character i gain a treasure equivalent a what CR ? Tks for all helps !!!
Frugal 08-28-07, 11:06 AM	Good , i understand the diference betwen ECL and CR , but i have only doubt... See ... My group (6 char level 10) engage a combat with a minotaur vampire fighter2 CR 10 right ? (4 minoutaur +2 fighter +2 vampire) .... if us kill the monster us gain a equivalent CR10 treasure correct ? But if exist a player minotaur vampire fighter, the level is 18. (6 hit dice racial + 2 LA + 2 Fighter +8 Vampire) And if i kill the Character i gain a treasure equivalent a what CR ? Tks for all helps !!! Well generally you don't determine treasure for killing PCs as PCs killing PCs is generally discouraged. Now if you mean what starting wealth you should have, it's equal to that of the character's ECL. If nothing else, this is to balance with the rest of the party, the ECL 18 character is supposed to be playing with other 18th level characters (by character level or ECL) and if he's way back on equipment it's just going to suck. NPCs always have way less treasure because otherwise it would completely throw off the PCs' wealth (figure that it's an average of 13 encounters to level, if you fought 13 creatures with a CR equal to your level you'd end up with 13 times the recommended wealth for your level divided amongst the 4 party members by the time you leveled).
xixaloka 08-28-07, 12:44 PM	Well generally you don't determine treasure for killing PCs as PCs killing PCs is generally discouraged. Now if you mean what starting wealth you should have, it's equal to that of the character's ECL. If nothing else, this is to balance with the rest of the party, the ECL 18 character is supposed to be playing with other 18th level characters (by character level or ECL) and if he's way back on equipment it's just going to suck. NPCs always have way less treasure because otherwise it would completely throw off the PCs' wealth (figure that it's an average of 13 encounters to level, if you fought 13 creatures with a CR equal to your level you'd end up with 13 times the recommended wealth for your level divided amongst the 4 party members by the time you leveled). Perfect , now i understand !!! Very Tks for All !!!