Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JacobReed 06-07-07, 09:03 PM	:P I felt it necessary to point out how abusive a ruling made about the context of the rules concerning Multi burst abilities for magical weapons. Pages 224 and 225 of the Dungeon Masters Guide. The current ruling allows multi-burst effects or multi-elemental, damage weapons to activate all 3 forms of bonus damage at the same time. The alternative of this would be to restrict each type of bonus damage to a different command word so only one could be active at a time. Recently an experienced player joined the group I have been running for some time. He quickly grow in levels and followed an intelligent pattern of character growth. I encourage this and every game that I have ever DM I have tried to integrate role playing, problem solving, puzzles, battles, and a multi path flexible plot. Also in ever game I have enforce each rule to the letter. As we gamed he borrowed and saved all of the gold he could, buying only the minimum food and supplies needed for his character. A soon as he had enough gold and he was give access to a skilled smith be bough a magical Grate Axe with Keen, Flaming Burst, Icy Burst, and Shocking Burst. He indicated he wanted all three effects to activate on the same command word. I did not think this was possible based on the way it is described in the book. When one command is made the previous command is deactivated, but in the updates it clarifies that it is possible to activate all 3 at once under the same command word. I am not the type to start making up rules but he was keeping up and surpassing the abilities of characters 5 levels above his. The other players discovered how effective this was so they sold their weapons and made copies of his multi-burst weapon. The group is owning everything I put in front of them with little resistance. I have went so for as to select creatures with DR, resistance, and immunities and still the raw amount of extra damage is overpowering. We experimented with this idea using mock battles. I role out treasure before every battle and it is truly impossible to randomly role a 3 burst weapon for a monster so we equipped an equal, challenge encounter and gave then all scimitars, maces, and scythes with the 3 burst enhancements. The players exchanged their weapon enhancements with equivalent value weapon enhancements of their choice, but no bonus damage. Even with 2 vorpal weapons and various other magic weapons the monsters destroyed the party. We tried several battles with different tactics and foes. The -5 challenge rated horde of goblins equipped only with keen, kukries, mutli-burst weapons was an impossible encounter. The players with high AC lasted longer but with little effect. I calculated each encounter as instructed in the DMG and modified the CR for the weapons. Giving the players back their multi-burst weapons they where able to effectively attack and kill creatures +8 challenge above their levels using good tactics. There where a few creatures that had advantages that over powered these weapons but this make a small fraction of the monsters in all the monster manuals. Just by the numbers; with the base 3 elemental bonuses and 3 burst effect enhancements a +1 small shuriken could do from 5 to 20 damage in a non-critical attacks and from 9 to 51 damage on a critical. A +1 great axe could do from 5 to 31 damage in a non-critical attack and from 13 to 115 damage on a critical. A +1 heavy pick could do from 5 to 25 damage on a non-critical attack and from 18 to 140 damage on a critical. This is just the damage of the weapon with the bonus elemental damage. All of these examples do not even add in strength modifiers at all. 140 points of damage is outrageous for any hand held weapon and most fighters types have four to five strikes in a full attacks by level 20. It makes it stupid for players to not get a triple burst weapons. I thought that the flame damage might be countered by the frost. Player’s guide page171+2 describes combining magical effects but it does not describe damaging spells, elemental, or alignment effects well. You can counter a spell with its opposite effect but where a random amount of damage is applied there is no defined answer. A closed example is the heat / chill metal spells on pages 209 and 239 PHB. In this example every point of heat damage is countered by cold damage. This is the only example I could find that suggested that elemental damage could be reversed by it’s elemental opposite. However this is a poor example at best. Even when there are only two elemental types and burst it is still overpowered. It should be restricted to no more then one elemental type at one time by the core rules. As it stands Flaming, Frost, Shock weapons only cost around 18,000gp and Flame, Ice, and Shocking burst weapons cost around 128,000gp. Even restricting items by level or cost would allow a fairly low level player to obtain these items with reasonable ease. Giving all the enemies matching weapons or counter resistance equipment does balance the field but it also offers a massive wealth of expensive, magical items. If any one can point out a reference or a specific section that may described this in better detail Please let me know. I believe this need to be looked at in better detail but first please answer these questions 1) (As explained above “all active at once”) Do multi-elemental / multi-burst weapons truly provide an overpowering unbalance against the majority of the monsters in the monster manuals? 2) Do opposing or opposite damage types counter each others? Such as heat and cold, positive and negative energy, or alignment based damages. Please do not answer I should limit elemental / burst weapons in my campaign. One thing my players can say is that they built and advanced their characters with the core rules. I have been to campaigns where radical house rules made the game easier or extremely unbalanced in the favor of the characters. It is a hollow victory to boast about a character that was given unfair advantages. It is like making a bet on a race when you slice the tires on the challenger’s tires. Jacob Reed Kentucky
Geogoose 06-07-07, 09:20 PM	Let me understand your post: 1. You have a player with at least a +8 weapon (128,000gp). I say at least because you specified every enhancement but did not mention if it was greater than +1. 2. Someone in the party is 5 levels higher than this axe wielder. So, who is this PC 5 levels higher than one who has a +8 weapon and how are they not Epic? Epic PC's generally have such a power fluctuation they may skew the effective level of the party such that level appropriate CR's may be a joke or TPK. Finally, no. It is pretty common for melee classes to put multiple elemental enhancements on weapons. At high end play, generally the monsters you fight tend to avoid 1-3 types of elemental damge pretty easily so the weapon doesn't do as well as it looks on paper.
AAB 06-07-07, 09:32 PM	it appears, based on your cost estimations, that you did not enforce the requirement of at least a +1 actual enhancement on a weapon before special abilities are able to be added. even so, the greataxe should crit on less than 10 percent of all attacks (i say less than because you have to confirm a critical). based on the cost of the weapon, it should really only be available at above 14th level unless you are ridiculously generous with your treasure (which would cause problems no matter what). since, as Geogoose pointed out, the weapon itself would cost around 128,000 gold pieces, and a 14th level character should be around 150,000gp for total wealth, they would have to have nearly no protection from attacks. that character would be a "glass cannon" of sorts, and shouldn't be too hard to get rid of.
Alvoros Darkleaf 06-07-07, 09:35 PM	In a WotC series module we are playing now, one of the monsters in the game wields "Frostburn" I think it is called, a cold and fire greatsword. If they put it in their modules, I would think it is game. Alvo
JacobReed 06-07-07, 09:47 PM	Actully based by the weath by level chart on page 135 DMG it is not that uncommon for any character to reach this weath by (level 14). You could limit magical items by 1/4 overall value of the character as it suggests in the DMG (level 18) Even then it is possible to buy just the elemental bonuses by (level 9.) Magic users are powerful but they run out of spells. Fighters on the other hand could keep doing this high end damage as long as they are standing. Granted there are creatures that absorb or regenerate form an elemental damage but still the most creatures don't. By the numbers most monsters would never present a challenge. The only thing holding the players back is a lower HP vs true challance creatures and that just makes the battles overly deadly. It is almost like giving a cave man a lazer gun and watching him take over the world. The numbers dont support waht your saying.
skywyze 06-07-07, 09:47 PM	Every book ever published by WotC can be broken by an enterprising player. And every book that WotC will ever publish will be the same way. It's not a bad thing, it's a natural result of the fact that WotC can't possibly predict and rule out every single powerful build or cool idea that any player anywhere could ever come up with. The fact of the matter is - there's no such thing as a broken book. Only broken players who abuse brokenism to their advantage. That being said, our campaign has a level 10 fighter/barbarian, level 10 fighter/exotic weapons master and level 10 warblade and every last one of them can do 120+ damage in a single, good crit. Being able to do 140+ by level 14 - let alone level 19 - seems pretty... Weak, to be honest.
JacobReed 06-07-07, 09:59 PM	That being said, our campaign has a level 10 fighter/barbarian, level 10 fighter/exotic weapons master and level 10 warblade and every last one of them can do 120+ damage in a single, good crit. Being able to do 140+ by level 14 - let alone level 19 - seems pretty... Weak, to be honest. This is all well and good but how much of that is due to class abilities, magical benifits and strenght ups? The 140+ is the just the ability of the weapon. It is the same reason you don't make magical items that can cast spells without effort. A barbarian with fire ball is not right. There would be a lot to that story but you get the idea.
ShinAkuma2 06-07-07, 10:09 PM	Are you remembering that crits need to hit & be confirmed? It sounds to me like every threat they generate is confirming. If that's the case, why not just use monsters with higher ACs or miss chance abilities? If they can't hit, they can't crit.
JacobReed 06-07-07, 10:11 PM	In a WotC series module we are playing now, one of the monsters in the game wields "Frostburn" I think it is called, a cold and fire greatsword. Alvo This points out the revers element part of my question. Macial fire is still fire the same way frost is frost. It damages because it is hot or cold. Heat is countered by cold so how can someone burn and freeze in the same strike?
JacobReed 06-07-07, 10:17 PM	Are you remembering that crits need to hit & be confirmed? It sounds to me like every threat they generate is confirming. If that's the case, why not just use monsters with higher ACs or miss chance abilities? If they can't hit, they can't crit. One could take the opposite and say why not use high threat weapons. 18-20 weapons could be made to 15-20 with Keen. Some feats and class abilities do the same if not more. Plus once again you are limiting the monster sellection based on player equipment.
ChimericalWolf 06-07-07, 10:21 PM	This points out the revers element part of my question. Macial fire is still fire the same way frost is frost. It damages because it is hot or cold. Heat is countered by cold so how can someone burn and freeze in the same strike? Is this a trick question? Cause if not, I'm gonna go with magic. Final answer.
JacobReed 06-07-07, 10:24 PM	The problem is numbers vs numbers. Ture there are monsters out there with resistances and abilities to counter the weapons the players are using. Short of equipment the bulk of the monsters don't. Monsters of equal challenge do not do enough raw damage, have high enough HP, or powerful enough abilites to preasent a worth wild battle. Levels are going by every 3-5 encounters not every 13 and every other battle is just worthless. Numbers to numbers.
runestar 06-07-07, 10:28 PM	This points out the revers element part of my question. Macial fire is still fire the same way frost is frost. It damages because it is hot or cold. Heat is countered by cold so how can someone burn and freeze in the same strike? Who cares? I paid for both my flaming and frost weapon enhancements, why shouldn't I get to use and benefit from both of them at the same time? It would mechanically be no different from stacking flaming and shock together.:)
JacobReed 06-07-07, 10:29 PM	Is this a trick question? Cause if not, I'm gonna go with magic. Final answer. I do not mean to disrespect but that is a poor answer. Everything that can't be explained is Magic? It is more of a "give up answer" then a real answer. Magic is the how in creation. Fire & Frost is the effect there after. Your final answer is no answer at all.
Krusk 06-07-07, 10:32 PM	1 they are generally not a huge deal. Throw your party up against demons and devils who are highly resistant to a good variety of elemental types. 2 they do not counter each other. If you are looking for some advice, there is no reason any classed enemy the players fight would not have thought of the same thing. The enemies can use this tactic too, and now you can see how the players react to it. If they go out and grab rings of elemental resistance, or begin casting spells to resist elemental damage, then those are some ideas your enemies can do as well. See what the players do to counter it, and they might come up with ideas you did not.
JacobReed 06-07-07, 10:36 PM	Who cares? I paid for both my flaming and frost weapon enhancements, why shouldn't I get to use and benefit from both of them at the same time? It would mechanically be no different from stacking flaming and shock together.:) The same way you should not be able to fire 3 guns at the same time, or fire a gun with the kick of just one and the power of all 3. In part it is taking the feathers of the class and making it meaningless. Plus there are a great many effects that could be countered with their counterparts
primemover003 06-07-07, 10:45 PM	Jacob energies don't cancel each other out. They simply don't in the game. Vertai energy sunbtypes take 50% more damage from an opposed energy but that's the limit of that arguement. What level are your PC's? This will help us determine what's wrong with their abilities, items, or your encounters. Trust me sometimes players can come up with some dandy ideas to wreck a perfectly good encounter. OK multiple energy resistances. Use Outsiders more or use this Psionic Power... Energy Adaptation Psychometabolism [see text] Level: Psion/wilder 4, psychic warrior 4 Display: Visual; see text Manifesting Time: 1 standard action Range: Personal Target: You Duration: 10 min./level Power Points: 7 Your body assimilates some of the effect of an energy attack and converts it to harmless light. You gain resistance 10 against any attack that deals acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic damage. When you absorb damage, you can choose to radiate visible light that illuminates a 60-foot radius for a number of rounds equal to the points of damage you successfully resisted, or merely dissipate the energy without giving off a visual display. The energy resistance provided by this power increases to 20 points at 9th manifester level and to a maximum of 30 points at 13th level. The power protects your equipment as well. The resistance provided by this power does not stack with other forms of energy resistance. This power’s subtype is the same as the type of damage it protects against. Augment If you spend 4 additional power points, you can manifest this power as an immediate action. To slow down Crits use Higher AC's. If the weapon is +8 (+1 keen, flaming/shocking/frost burst) then they should have a harder time confirming than if they had +5 keen single energy burst. That +4 can make a big difference. Large threat ranges don't mean that much either, especially if the player has to roll 19 or 20 anyway to hit. Take your strongest fighter's attack bonus +10 as an easy AC for the party to deal with. Up it from there. If your fighter has to roll 15 or higher to hit the BBEG's AC he might be threatening crits, but odds are he won't confirm very often. When all else fails use Fortification!
runestar 06-07-07, 10:53 PM	It should be noted that the burst enhancements work even on crit-immune foes. They only require that you roll a crit, not that the foe actually be affected by it. Thus, said weapon is still good even against golems and undead.:)
Cold Napalm 06-07-07, 10:59 PM	1) It's magic is a very viable answer when the question is about MAGICAL fire and frost. That said, even non magical fire and cold damage stacks. Ever burn yourself badly? Then put ice on it? Guess what, that fire did cellular damage and the ice did even more (now remember that ice actually doesn't do ANY damage...1d6 cold damage is on the lines of dry ice cold). 2) Umm they used BURST?!?! HAHAHAHA...no really, they are bad at this game. Be glad. Hey I can get 3 bursts that does 3d6 all the time and 6d10 less then 10% of the time or I can get +6d6 damage ALL the time for that price. 3) Are you following the wealth by level chart? If they have double the gold they should have, that might bump them up 1 or 2 ECL. If that is the case, send in the right CR level creatures and see what happens.
Dead_Weasel 06-07-07, 11:16 PM	The same way you should not be able to fire 3 guns at the same time, or fire a gun with the kick of just one and the power of all 3. In part it is taking the feathers of the class and making it meaningless. Plus there are a great many effects that could be countered with their counterparts http://www.uplandlife.com/shooting/shotguns/images/side_by_side_001.jpg Believe it or not, a "tri-gun" is not particularly complicated, just irritating to reload. Regardless of how you feel about the existence of multi-barreled weapons, they continue to exist.http://content.kapowwe.com/images/minigun_m-134.jpg While there is a certain logical inconsistency in a cold, flaming weapon, it is perfectly admissible under the rules, just as an anarchic, axiomatic weapon is. It is easy to see, however, how such a weapon could be useful, and one way that this could be accomplished is by enchanting the weapon so that it constantly alternates between one and the other, causing the business portion of the weapon either to alternate between flaming and freezing or to ripple with one, then the other. Even if you houserule that flaming (burst) frost (icy burst) weapons are not possible, the player will immediately switch to a corrosive (acidic burst) screaming (burst) shock (ing burst) weapon, which is considerably more powerful anyway.
Ongorth 06-07-07, 11:21 PM	2) Umm they used BURST?!?! HAHAHAHA...no really, they are bad at this game. Be glad. Hey I can get 3 bursts that does 3d6 all the time and 6d10 less then 10% of the time or I can get +6d6 damage ALL the time for that price. Word. Burst is probably the worst enhancement you can buy for a weapon in terms of cost to damage. Elemental damage is situational and 19-20 crit range only happens on 10% of hits while other enhancements happens on 100% of hits. I mean, to use CNs example, the burst weapon nets you avg damage of 10.5 + (33/10) = 13.8. For SIX bonuses. The 6d6 weapon CN lists (whatever bonuses he's using, I'm not sure) gets you 21 avg damage. If I took 4 more enhancement bonuses and collision, I'd have 9 + ((9/10)x2) = 10.8 damage AND +4 more to hit, which, using power attack with on the greataxe would add another 8 + ((8/10)x2) = 9.6 damage or 20.4 (17 on creatures immune to criticals), none of which is EVER ignored by elemental resistances. I mean, you can think its cracked, but mathematically its a terrible option.
Vaelan 06-07-07, 11:30 PM	Something smells fishy. You have people with weapons that are appropriate for level 16 characters and you're comparing them to things with a CR up to eight higher than them, which would be CR 24s. I will ask this, despite the fact that I really don't have to ask as I already have a pretty good idea: what level are these characters?
Anguirus23 06-07-07, 11:35 PM	Count yourself lucky that your players haven't discovered the collision and ennervating properties yet. For crying out loud, most demons have resistance to cold and fire and immunity to electricity. Your players weapons could not deal energy damage to a vrock. A +8 pick can do 140 damage? Good! I guess the pick is good for something. Of couse, the player has to roll a 20, confirm, roll max damage, and against a creature that doesn't have DR or any form of energy resistance.
Anguirus23 06-07-07, 11:41 PM	Ooh, here's something. +1 collision holy corrosive psychokinetic screaming (whatever). That's +6 + 1d6 acid + 1d4 sonic + 1d4 force plus 2d6 more against evil creatures (read: most of what you fight in D&D). That's on every hit, not just on a crit. And I still don't consider that an amazing weapon, though for a pittance one could add a lesser crystal of energy assault for another +1d6 electricity and keep a few oils of greater magic weapon handy.
SkyOdin 06-08-07, 12:16 AM	Okay, one non-critical hit with a +1 flaming/icy/shocking burst greataxe should do 1d12+3d6+1+str points of damage. Assuming a strength of 20 (probably an understatement for a high level barbarian), each hit will do anywhere from 10 to 36 points of damage. On a critical hit, it will do 3d12+3d10+3d6+3+3x5 points of damage. That will be anywhere from 27 to 102 points of damage. Of course, that is only on a critical hit. That actually isn't that bad for a 14th level character. My 7th level Duskblade can do that much damage at will using spells. A tenth level Mage can theoretically do 120 points of damage on a critical hit with an Orb of Force. 102 points of damage is nothing compared to what a mage should be doing at the level of your characters. Anyways, if your characters have Vorpal weapons, why are you worried about the burst weapons? Aren't vorpal weapons already killing things on critical hits? If you want some more specific advice for your situation, you need to supply us with the exact levels and equipment of your characters, as well as exactly what monsters you have been throwing at them.
DarkRhystar 06-08-07, 12:26 AM	Multiple burst weapons are broken? :mymy: If that's the best and most lethal thing your players can come up with, you should be happy. If something of this level bothers you, the stuff my players come up with would probably make you cry. Relax, take a deep breath, and realize it's okay for PCs to be good at what they do (even though a multi-burst weapon is pitiful...). Anyways, if your characters have Vorpal weapons, why are you worried about the burst weapons? Aren't vorpal weapons already killing things on critical hits? As of 3.5, Vorpal only activates on a natural 20. Not just any critical. It's no longer nearly worth its +5 price modifier anymore.
skywyze 06-08-07, 12:28 AM	I think we'd need some information about the group. Anything at all, really. We know nothing about them except what weapon one of them is using.
ShinAkuma2 06-08-07, 12:40 AM	One could take the opposite and say why not use high threat weapons. 18-20 weapons could be made to 15-20 with Keen. Which means nothing if you can't hit. You still need to hit to threaten, Jacob.
carcrazy202 06-08-07, 12:57 AM	Just want to point out that no mater what the Crit range, If you can't hit the guy normally, Only a natural 20 will even make contact with him, and if a nat. 20 isn't high enough to confirm you CAN'T CRIT HIM yay you probably already knew that but just to make sure im throwing it out there. ;)
Metafictional 06-08-07, 01:37 AM	Hell, my players have done things with Vicious that STILL give me nightmares... Vicious, Frost, Flaming, Shock on it's own is only a +4 bonus on top of a +1 for a +5 weapon that does +5 d6 damage (for the low low price of +1d6 to you).
jaelis 06-08-07, 07:23 AM	OK, lets compare your +1 keen, flaming burst, shocking burst, frosty burst greataxe and my +5 flaming, shocking, frosty greataxe. I will use plain power attack to make our hit bonuses equal. On a noncritical hit I deal +12 more damage than you (4 for the bonus and 8 for power attack). 5% of the time, we will both crit. Then you deal an extra 33 points of damage on average and I deal a total extra of 24, so you do +8 more damage than me. 5% of the time, you crit and I don't, so you deal +21 more damage than me, plus double whatever your base damage is. Let's just say your base damage is 20 (before adding the effects of all the energy abilities). Then that's +41 total. Then your average damage bonus is 5% times +8 plus 5% times +41, minus 90% times 12. That equals -8.35. So on average, you do considerably less damage than me. Those numbers will change around a bit depending on energy resistances and crit immunity, but the basic point is that your weapon is not that great. I'm not sure why you had the experience that you did with it.
Evicmar 06-08-07, 08:26 AM	So he was able to find a 18th level wizard willing to make the item for him? The 3 +2 level enhancements make the higher bonus a +6 which requires an 18th level creator of the weapon.
kainpendragon 06-08-07, 09:24 AM	I do not mean to disrespect but that is a poor answer. Everything that can't be explained is Magic? It is more of a "give up answer" then a real answer. Magic is the how in creation. Fire & Frost is the effect there after. Your final answer is no answer at all. lol it magical fire and frost. but for a real answer almost all blades and axes that are used for combat have what is called as a double edge. it what allows a person useing such a weapon to attack up and down left and right also fuction as what allows you to not leave your weapon stuck in a person body. each could be doing a different kind of elmental damage. even curved blades have a double edge it usely located at the tip of that type of sword.
Merestil Haye 06-08-07, 09:53 AM	So he was able to find a 18th level wizard willing to make the item for him? The 3 +2 level enhancements make the higher bonus a +6 which requires an 18th level creator of the weapon.Not at all. The CL is the highest caster level among all the properties considered individually. The market price increasers are no themselves affecting the enhancement bonus of the weapon, and only the enhancement bonus requires a caster level three times that of the bonus. +1 Bonus : CL3 Keen : CL5 Flaming Burst : CL3 Icy Burst : CL3 Shocking Burst : CL5 The weapon can be prepared by a 5th level caster, although he may have a problem getting enough xp put by to make all the enhancements at once. Considering a weapon of this specification took 18 weeks to make (over four months) it had better be powerful.
tarkin 06-08-07, 11:21 AM	1. This item is very expensive. 2. This item is powerufll. 3. This item itself is legal. But from your description, you seem to be not playing the crits correctly. You do know you have to confirm? 4. This is not an abusive item. 5. In fact it is a relatively weak item. Crits are a fool's game, most of the time. Too many people are immune to them, and they should not happen too often, as long as you play by the actual rules in the game. 6. Straight Comparison of the following magical enchantments make them better than any of the Burst stuff (flaming, Shocking, Icy) Holy/Axiomatic/Anarchic/Unholy Wounding Spell storing x2 (if allowed, otherwise Spell storing + Merciful) Vicous + Merciful Flaming + Shocking (non burst version, better to take two +1d6 instead of +1d6 and +critical)
risner 06-08-07, 01:01 PM	One could take the opposite and say why not use high threat weapons. 18-20 weapons could be made to 15-20 with Keen. Some feats and class abilities do the same if not more. Plus once again you are limiting the monster sellection based on player equipment. That made no sense. Are you confused and thinking a 15-20 weapon auto hits for any roll from 15 to 20? If so, they don't and you are confused.
maharai23 06-08-07, 01:15 PM	Burst weapons are not command word activated, they are use activated, and triggered on a successful crit. Thus, all three functions operate independently of one another, at the same time. Alternately, there could be command words to turn the function on and off (you don't want to hit the iron golem with electricity, for example), allowing you to suppress certain functions. Really, is this item any stronger than a +3 Vorpal Greatsword or a +3 Flaming Brilliant energy greatsword (define: D&D fastasy version of Lightsaber)? Not particularly, no. In fact, it's, in my opinion, on par with the second, and, in a campaign focused around living, armor wearing creatures, a great deal less effective than the 2nd.
skywyze 06-08-07, 01:35 PM	Others have said this, but it bares re-stating: The weapon is only a +1 weapon until the bursts go off, which only happens on a confirmed crit. Assuming you're throwing high-ac enemies at the party, that means that on average, only once every 400 hits (1/20 squared) will the bursts go off. That means that even with a scythe (x4 crit) and a strength in the twenties, all these enchantments combined do less than 1 point of damage per hit, on average. To put it in laymans terms, a triple-burst weapon is "teh suk."
Omegas 06-08-07, 10:32 PM	I do not mean to disrespect but that is a poor answer. Magic is the how in creation. Fire & Frost is the effect there after. I like this statement although not well worded.. There is a cause and effect to everything in nature and the same should be true of magic. Regardless of “how” anything happens the “act or effect” still reacts with the physical world in physical ways. Even a mental effects is making physical changes to once’s mind. I always hated hearing a generic answer for a strange effect “It’s magic.” It is a BS answer. Magic has mechanics that should somewhat explain the “how.” If Magic create fire without heat or air I want to know why, and I think my players deserve the same answer. Truthfully magic should create any effect the same way it is created in nature. To create fire magic generates intense heat (aka cause) heat ignites kindling that is feed by the air creating fire. (aka effect). Is that so complicated? Most spells are more descriptive and they is further defined by school giving us an idea of how. The spells he refereed to ( heat and chill metal) are a cause and effect example of countering. It states clearly in the Players Guide that a spell can be counter by its opposite “effect”. Heat and Chill Metal explicitly points out this effect. Cause = Magic heats or freezes metal. Effect = Metal gets hot or cold doing damage to anyone touching it. Counter Effect = A hot piece of metal is cooled by anything cold enough to cause damage, and vice versa. This points out that magic can be reduced or countered by it’s, opposite effect regardless if it is natural or magical based. It is not a poor example at all. According to the book this is a basic way to counter a spell or an effect. This partially proves his idea has merit, opposing damage types anyway. I don’t like more then one element on a weapon myself, but there are fire / ice blades. Weather or not they are independent or both on at the same time that is based on the creation. Truly if the elements did counter each other it would still be a worth, wild blade. Many things have resistance against at least one element and this is even more true of PCs and NPCs. As the resistance reduces the damage before it is dealt this would expose the target to the secondary element. Some times it is difficult to determine what resistance they have active. Granted it would be better to shut one off and turn another on as needed. Anyway the point is sound. If we are going to describe magic with physical examples or properties then the magic should be bound to these physical traits. Fire needs Heat, Air, and Fuel. Deprive fire of any of these needs no fire regardless. Take a lighter and start a fire under water. It wont happen and an ancient warrior would look at the ability to create fire in your had as magic. I have not read every passage in every book but I have not read anything to contradict this possible interpretation. In fact the counter spell section supports it, and what more this does work on more then fire and ice. One thing I think everyone has overlooked on this thread is that he is referring to the weapon alone. Not the abilities of the character but the weapon alone. It is possible that everyone is so determined to prevent countering the “effects” of magic that their intentionally dismissing it before truly investigating the idea. Grained it would not be a great deal of changes but it would make some interesting ones to enact a ruling on this. I like this idea it fun and imaginative. I challenge anyone to find a passage that directly states that both ice and fire damages is applied and not reduced in any way.
skywyze 06-08-07, 10:40 PM	This seems overly simple to me, but since the weapon is just a +1 weapon until it crits... Consider this: These are all bursts. They go off in an instant, and then they're gone. They could just act at different times, milliseconds apart.
Evicmar 06-08-07, 10:51 PM	The CL is the highest caster level among all the properties considered individually. Incorrect. The cast level required to make an item is the higher of the weapons enhancement bonus or the weapons magical abilities. As per DMG pg 286 Enhancement bonus: +1 = +1 level enhancement ------------------------------------------ 3rd level caster to make this portion Ability enhancements: keen = +1 level adjustment Flameing burst = +2 level adjustment Shocking burst = +2 level adjustment Frost burst = +2 level adjustment ------------------------------------------- 21st level caster requirement to create this portion Keep in mind that enhancing an existing item requires that the total enhancement bonus be used for level required to make.
Omegas 06-08-07, 11:23 PM	This seems overly simple to me, but since the weapon is just a +1 weapon until it crits... Consider this: These are all bursts. They go off in an instant, and then they're gone. They could just act at different times, milliseconds apart. The DMG indicates that the whole round everything is for the most part happening at the sametime. The first person attacking is still attacking while the last person of the round is attempting to run up to the battle. Truly milliseconds would not be enough. Maybe for the shock but not the fire and ice. Burns eather hot or cold occure due to exposure and the weapon only makes contact for a few milliseconds in the first place. Plus it suggest they would all happen at once and even if they did not the first would still be effect the target by the time the second kicked in. This answer seems as if you are reaching for answer. There is nothing to support it and it does not sound like your trying. I think I will post this the magical section and see what comes of it.
Rigeld 06-08-07, 11:29 PM	Keep in mind that enhancing an existing item requires that the total enhancement bonus be used for level required to make. This is where you need to read the rules better. The SRD says (and DMG says the same thing) : Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. Flaming Burst isnt an enhancement bonus. Its a special ability. As long as the enchanter has the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat and can cast (or have cast) one of the spells listed (flame blade, flame strike, or fireball), and there is already at least a +1 enchancement bonus, he can enchant the weapon with Flaming Burst. That is the prerequisite to creating a magic item - caster levels must be 3x enhancement bonus, and the special abilities have thier own prereqs listed.
Rigeld 06-08-07, 11:30 PM	The DMG indicates that the whole round everything is for the most part happening at the sametime. The first person attacking is still attacking while the last person of the round is attempting to run up to the battle. Truly milliseconds would not be enough. Maybe for the shock but not the fire and ice. Burns eather hot or cold occure due to exposure and the weapon only makes contact for a few milliseconds in the first place. Plus it suggest they would all happen at once and even if they did not the first would still be effect the target by the time the second kicked in. This answer seems as if you are reaching for answer. There is nothing to support it and it does not sound like your trying. I think I will post this the magical section and see what comes of it. Yeah, its impossible for a flame to do any damage, even if it covers you for milliseconds. Oh wait - thats what Fireball does.
Vaelan 06-08-07, 11:35 PM	Incorrect. The cast level required to make an item is the higher of the weapons enhancement bonus or the weapons magical abilities. As per DMG pg 286. The page you have cited says nothing to support your ridiculous conclusion that you take the caster level requirements of a weapon's special abilities in aggregate. In fact, the specific quote says absolutely nothing about a weapon with multiple abilities making your claim a matter of (incorrect) interpretation rather than the simple matter of the rules that you are trying to say it is.
Cold Napalm 06-08-07, 11:51 PM	I always hated hearing a generic answer for a strange effect “It’s magic.” It is a BS answer. Magic has mechanics that should somewhat explain the “how.” If Magic create fire without heat or air I want to know why, and I think my players deserve the same answer. Truthfully magic should create any effect the same way it is created in nature. To create fire magic generates intense heat (aka cause) heat ignites kindling that is feed by the air creating fire. (aka effect). Is that so complicated? Most spells are more descriptive and they is further defined by school giving us an idea of how. You mean like making a non magical orb on magical force? No really I want a logical non it's magic explanation of that...otherwise if your gonna play by the rules, your just gonna have to suck it up and go it's magic at some point. The spells he refereed to ( heat and chill metal) are a cause and effect example of countering. It states clearly in the Players Guide that a spell can be counter by its opposite “effect”. Heat and Chill Metal explicitly points out this effect. Cause = Magic heats or freezes metal. Effect = Metal gets hot or cold doing damage to anyone touching it. Counter Effect = A hot piece of metal is cooled by anything cold enough to cause damage, and vice versa. Says who? Not the PHB or SRD or wizards. YOU can rule that all you want but that would be a house rule. FYI, heating a metal to 1d6 damage on a hit is akin to heating a metal to over 800 degrees (remember a burning pitch torch does a measly 1d3 fire damage) and cold damage is akin to chilling beyond dry ice. You have any idea what would happen to a sword IF the frost and flaming properties worked that way?!? One it would not protect the user and two, the sword would be ruined in a matter of minutes. Try again. Also note that burning then FREEZING a wound still causes burn damage and frostburn damage. This is not a burn then cold water, this is burn then negative 80 degree cold applied. This points out that magic can be reduced or countered by it’s, opposite effect regardless if it is natural or magical based. It is not a poor example at all. According to the book this is a basic way to counter a spell or an effect. This partially proves his idea has merit, opposing damage types anyway. Umm not really. What counters fireball? Another fireball...not ice storm, or sleet storm on ANY ice spells for that matter. I don’t like more then one element on a weapon myself, but there are fire / ice blades. Weather or not they are independent or both on at the same time that is based on the creation. Truly if the elements did counter each other it would still be a worth, wild blade. Many things have resistance against at least one element and this is even more true of PCs and NPCs. As the resistance reduces the damage before it is dealt this would expose the target to the secondary element. Some times it is difficult to determine what resistance they have active. Granted it would be better to shut one off and turn another on as needed. Hey play how like...but your bias has no basis in rules. Anyway the point is sound. If we are going to describe magic with physical examples or properties then the magic should be bound to these physical traits. Fire needs Heat, Air, and Fuel. Deprive fire of any of these needs no fire regardless. Take a lighter and start a fire under water. It wont happen and an ancient warrior would look at the ability to create fire in your had as magic. And if your playing D&D and not your homebrewed houserules and flavor...no. I have not read every passage in every book but I have not read anything to contradict this possible interpretation. In fact the counter spell section supports it, and what more this does work on more then fire and ice. How about the wielder is not affected? Or that the weapon isn't damaged? Oh or that fire spells are in fact NOT countered by ice spells. Or the fact that in fact extreme heat AND cold at the SAME time STILL does BOTH damage in real life anyways? Look I worked in a kitchen and the first thing you learn is NEVER put ice on a burn. Cold water ONLY. Ice is too cold and will do even MORE damage and we are talking about much MUCH colder then ice here. One thing I think everyone has overlooked on this thread is that he is referring to the weapon alone. Not the abilities of the character but the weapon alone. It is possible that everyone is so determined to prevent countering the “effects” of magic that their intentionally dismissing it before truly investigating the idea. Grained it would not be a great deal of changes but it would make some interesting ones to enact a ruling on this. And the weapon alone is STUPIDLY gimped. For +8, if that all they can come up with,it's far FAR below what the board standard is for power level in a game. This is below a CORE only standard. Hell this is the kind of weapons that people make when they WANT to gimp themselves. Now from the OP's post, it is obvious that this rather weak PoS weapon is broken in his game. Well we gave advice on how to counter it...use it or don't. I like this idea it fun and imaginative. I challenge anyone to find a passage that directly states that both ice and fire damages is applied and not reduced in any way. And I like you to show me where it says specifically that flaming and frost DOESN'T stack. If I make a keen frost axe those two stack so why would a flame frost not stack without it SPECIFICALLY saying so? So no, by RAW, they stack. By custserv, they stack. by ask the sage they stack. THEY STACK. get over it or houserule it in YOUR game but please remember to keep that out of general discussion not about YOUR game.
Cold Napalm 06-08-07, 11:53 PM	Incorrect. The cast level required to make an item is the higher of the weapons enhancement bonus or the weapons magical abilities. As per DMG pg 286 Enhancement bonus: +1 = +1 level enhancement ------------------------------------------ 3rd level caster to make this portion Ability enhancements: keen = +1 level adjustment Flameing burst = +2 level adjustment Shocking burst = +2 level adjustment Frost burst = +2 level adjustment ------------------------------------------- 21st level caster requirement to create this portion Keep in mind that enhancing an existing item requires that the total enhancement bonus be used for level required to make. Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. From the SRD...key word OR.
Cold Napalm 06-08-07, 11:59 PM	The DMG indicates that the whole round everything is for the most part happening at the sametime. The first person attacking is still attacking while the last person of the round is attempting to run up to the battle. Truly milliseconds would not be enough. Maybe for the shock but not the fire and ice. Burns eather hot or cold occure due to exposure and the weapon only makes contact for a few milliseconds in the first place. Plus it suggest they would all happen at once and even if they did not the first would still be effect the target by the time the second kicked in. This answer seems as if you are reaching for answer. There is nothing to support it and it does not sound like your trying. I think I will post this the magical section and see what comes of it. You realize that if this is what you think you COMPLETELY anulled your previous post right? A millisecond isn't enough for MAGICAL effects but your chilled/heated metal theory works fine?!? WTF dude. You seriously lack some logic there.
godbeepit 06-09-07, 12:23 AM	Ouch, that burn's gonna leave a mark! Hahahahahah! Oh-ho! I made a pun! Albeit a bad one....
strenoth 06-09-07, 01:31 AM	Dude, using Science I coudl make somethign that woudl burn and freeze effectively at the same time. a chemical with the right properties could be sprayed as a liquid on aperson as a searingly hot liquid, and instantly flash into vapor that leaves the burnt flesh, now frozen. (there's a reason untrained people should never, ever work on AC systems). Admittedly, the range would be short, it would move from super-heated to frozen in less than a second. So yeah, a wound left by a flaming/frost weapon is both charred and frozen. Your point?
Rigeld 06-09-07, 08:46 AM	There is one, and only one, example of a heat spell countering a cold spell. Which means it is an exception, especially since it had to be explicitly stated that one counters the other. Heat does not counter cold. +1 Flaming Frost swords are RAW legal.
Evicmar 06-09-07, 09:25 AM	Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met. From the SRD...key word OR. First off, I fail to see the word OR anywhere in the quote from the SRD. Secondly, according to your logic a 5th level caster can make a +5 sword by making a +1 sword and further enhancing it +1 four more time. That's broken. You have to add all the special ability mods together for total effect and total caster level to make or the three times enhancement bonus caster level is meaningless. The +2 level enhancement bonus of burst items is stating that it is equivilant to a +2 enhancement of the weapon. Having three burst abilities is the equivilant to a +6 sword. If you choose to break the +1/3 caster levels req to make then yes this is very broken and a 5th level caster should be able to make a +5 sword.
Cinnamongrl 06-09-07, 09:31 AM	There are lots of ways to distroy enemies with ungodly power, and if you have good players each of them will find there own. The mistake here is that you allowed you players to obtain a +9(?) weapon? Considering that you can only put up to a +5 enhancement on any given weapon it's no wonder you players are messing up everything they come across. +1 for magic bonus +2 for keen? +2 flaming burst +2 Shocking burst +2 Icy burst __________________ 9? I mean if I'm wrong about keen that's still +8! At best your people should have 1 burst effect. +1 keen Icy Burst (+5)? Not so bad ass, huh? Regardless of the bonus for keen you can only, AT MOST put 2 burst effects on a weapon, and Nothing else. Personally, there are much much better ways to do massive damage than the chancey rolls of a melee weapon. Have you considered things immune to critical hits? I'm unable to check the srd or my books at the moment so I don't know if that would negate burst, but it's something to think about.
Rulebook 06-09-07, 09:38 AM	those kinds of enchantments are only good on light picks, and only if you can afford to TWF. i'm more scared of the +1 wounding, merciful vicious special monk weapons.
Nephlite 06-09-07, 10:14 AM	There are lots of ways to distroy enemies with ungodly power, and if you have good players each of them will find there own. The mistake here is that you allowed you players to obtain a +9(?) weapon? Considering that you can only put up to a +5 enhancement on any given weapon it's no wonder you players are messing up everything they come across. +1 for magic bonus +2 for keen? +2 flaming burst +2 Shocking burst +2 Icy burst __________________ 9? I mean if I'm wrong about keen that's still +8! Keen is +1. So you were wrong. At best your people should have 1 burst effect. +1 keen Icy Burst (+5)? Not so bad ass, huh? Regardless of the bonus for keen you can only, AT MOST put 2 burst effects on a weapon, and Nothing else. You mean should...right? Heck, you could have a +1 (+9 special ability) weapon at level 20. There is only a limit of +5 on hit/damage no abilities. Why not? You can get a simple G. Magic weapon spell raising it to +5. Have you considered things immune to critical hits? I'm unable to check the srd or my books at the moment so I don't know if that would negate burst, but it's something to think about. Burst weapons work on those immune to Crits.
ServanWolf 06-09-07, 10:34 AM	there are a simply solution agaisnt those weapons... 1) take creatures with immune magic or undeads who are immune to critical 2) take monsetr who cast antimagic field...no magic weapons any more :D 3) let your monster take those weapons of and use them themself 4) sunder those weapons :p It is all magic, counter it or take creatures who ahve resistances against it...or simply SR...like a funny drow of lvl 14 ..i dont think that weapon will fastly overcome that. 5) take incorporal creatures or so:D :p ...you cant damage what you cant though
Merestil Haye 06-09-07, 01:00 PM	First off, I fail to see the word OR anywhere in the quote from the SRD. Secondly, according to your logic a 5th level caster can make a +5 sword by making a +1 sword and further enhancing it +1 four more time. That's broken.That's silly. Go back and read the rules again. If you have a weapon with a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage, and another +1 enhancement bonus to hit, those two bonuses do not stack. The weapon has a total of +1 to hit and damage. (This is a core d20 rule. It's under "Basics" in the SRD). In order to give a weapon a +2 bonus to hit and damage you must be 6th level. But that only applies to the enhancement bonus. You have to add all the special ability mods together for total effect and total caster level to make or the three times enhancement bonus caster level is meaningless. The +2 level enhancement bonus of burst items is stating that it is equivilant to a +2 enhancement of the weapon.Again, read the descriptions please. A Burst weapon has a price equivalent to that of a +2 weapon. It does not say, anywhere, that the special qualities add to the enhancement bonus. From the SRD :In addition to an enhancement bonus, weapons may have special abilities. Special abilities count as additional bonuses for determining the market value of the item, but do not modify attack or damage bonuses (except where specifically noted). A single weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10. A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.(Bolding mine). Then we haveCaster Level for Weapons The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.You consider each individual weapon property separately. You do not add them together. Having three burst abilities is the equivilant to a +6 sword.Nonsense. A +6 sword is an epic item that has a market price of 720,000gp. IN no way is a flaming burst icy burst shocking burst weapon equivalent to that. If you choose to break the +1/3 caster levels req to make then yes this is very broken and a 5th level caster should be able to make a +5 sword.Again - for the enhancement bonus, and only the enhancement bonus, the caster level must be five times the enhancement bonus. The price modifiers for weapon properties do not count towards the enhancement bonus.
Merestil Haye 06-09-07, 01:03 PM	1) take creatures with immune magic or undeads who are immune to criticalThe burst powers of weapons take effect whenever you would confirm a critical, even if the enemy is invulnerable to criticals. It is all magic, counter it or take creatures who ahve resistances against it...or simply SR...like a funny drow of lvl 14 ..i dont think that weapon will fastly overcome that.We're not talking about spells. SR is completely ineffective aginst weapon properties (unless those properties cast spells). 5) take incorporal creatures or so:D :p ...you cant damage what you cant thoughBut all weapons with special properties are magical, and have a 50% chance of affecting incorporeal creatures. Then, someone might give the weapon the Ghost Touch property.
Merestil Haye 06-09-07, 01:09 PM	The mistake here is that you allowed you players to obtain a +9(?) weapon?+8. And that is not against the rules. Considering that you can only put up to a +5 enhancement on any given weapon it's no wonder you players are messing up everything they come across. +1 for magic bonus +2 for keen? +2 flaming burst +2 Shocking burst +2 Icy burstYou're mixing things up. A magical weapon can have an enhancement bonus and special properties with a total market price of up to a +10 equivalent. The enhancement bonus must be at least +1 and up to a maximum of +5. Weapon properties can thus total a maximum of +9 (+1 bonus and a mixture of weapon properties). There is no restriction that says the weapon properties can total no more than +5.
Omegas 06-09-07, 01:23 PM	There is one, and only one, example of a heat spell countering a cold spell. Which means it is an exception, especially since it had to be explicitly stated that one counters the other. Heat does not counter cold. +1 Flaming Frost swords are RAW legal. OR perhaps it is an example because they are direct oppisites. It does mention heat and chill metal in the text. It is possible that they used this as the example for the rest of simullar effects. Plus it matters not what spell it is. If you have chilled someones equipment any fire damage even fire ball or flare reduse the cold damage. If it was just these two spells then I could agree with your point but it is open to be counterd my any fire or Ice source even natural. If someone chilled my buckler I could stick my whole arm in a camp fire and counter the cold damage. Not very productive but it does counter the cold. I am failing to see in jacobs post where he asked about the caster level of the weapons creation. This topic would make a good new thread.
skywyze 06-09-07, 01:43 PM	*snip* (too long)First of all Omegas, learn some diplomacy. Berating people will only serve to alienate or anger them and will probably do more to hurt your arguments than help them. Learning to spell properly couldn't hurt either. Additionally, emphasizing how long you've been playing gives no bearing on the quality of your judgements or on you as a person, and as such strikes me as completely and utterly irrelevant to the topic at hand. Many experienced DMs are still bad DMs because they cling to bad habits they learned a long time ago. As for the argument at hand, just because you personally cannot possibly imagine a weapon casting two bursts immediately after eachother doesn't mean it couldn't happen. Can a sorcerer cast both cold and fire spells? Of course they could! They could even admixture a fireball so it does both fire and cold damage at the same time (see Complete Arcane for examples). So using the example of channeling positive and negative energy being mutually exclusive (which they aren't always) is ill-conceived since the elemental forces and positive/negative energy work differently - as written. Even if you disagree with us, please just calm down and stop berating people for disagreeing. Everyone else is entitled to their opinions just as much as you are.
Cold Napalm 06-09-07, 02:57 PM	Yeah nice one there omegas...just because you seem to lack enough logic to realize that if a MAGICAL burst of elemental damage isn't enough to do damage in a millsecond then a magically heated/chilled weapon won't even come close is not my fault. If your ENTIRE basis of ice and fire countering each other is chill/heat metal (a grandfathered spell that use to be the same spell BTW and they split up no less...exceptions anyone) then YOU have a lot to learn about D&D. I can go on about how long I have played, but I don't wanna embarress you (note I still have my chainmail), and it doesn't matter since that has no bearing on anything really other then I know about all the editions. So tell me, what ice spell counters fireball. Or flamestrike. Or meteor swarm. In SC there is even a spell that does both fire and ice at the same time. And fatasy wise there are many books where the magical weapon does in fact do both fire and ice. Not D&D but general fantasy. Just because you can't expand your mind to include things outside of your narrow view of what magic and fantasy is once again not my fault. Grow up.
Omegas 06-09-07, 04:35 PM	Yeah nice one there omegas...just because you seem to lack enough logic to realize that if a MAGICAL burst of elemental damage isn't enough to do damage in a millsecond then a magically heated/chilled weapon won't even come close is not my fault. Grow up. Your rants are no less then my own and to point it out you started this psycho-dramamatic arguement in the first place, rather then presenting it in a reasonable context. Your logic is unsound and you missed the point of this board. It is not just the Rule-Monger approch to these rules and that is the way it is. Your defence has shifted from, "Show me an example." to, "Well that is an outdated example." The fact is that no matter what I present to the thread you will not accept it. In fact if Wizards did rule that all elements fell under the element discriptor and you could only activate one at a time you would probably cry about it and keep the traditional rule as your own house rule. Even more so if they limited alingment based damages as well. It is your imagination that is lacking in this matter as in all examples. I have proposed these and other concepts as "WHAT IF?" Your opinions are noted but they are not of a logical standpoint. Rather an attmpt to brush off an idea as it is not in the rules. In truth apply the "What If" Concept. If Wizards Restricted Bonus Damage to 1 Elemental, 1 Alingment, and 1 non elemental/alingment type damage. Would it or would it not take the knees out from under a fighter type? The answer is "No" as a Fighter is more then just his weapon. I have played in campaigns where no magical weapons or equipment of anykind where alowed. We still did well just changing our tactics. The concept of D&D in the past was that your sKills and abilites should not be surpassed your tools. Now everything is so High magic that one can barely keep up without such enhancements to your items. Mages are more fighter then they have ever been and Fighters are more mage then they have ever been. Plus look at it his way. There are magic feats increasing the potentcey of a spell but do they change a spell to offer additional types of damage? Do they offer bouns damage without negatives of higher level spell slots? Even with items that cast spells most only have a number of uses before they are worthless. A bonus damage weapon has no negatives, nor does it lose value. With the ability to stack endless types of damage a DM could allow any number of elements or they could even decide that Pink fairy dust is a bounus elemental damage. An exaggerated example, but it is no diffent than just saying a weapon has 9D6 bouns damage. The stacking rule was created to prevent something from going to far. Unholy Holy weapons are twisted and crazy. Combinations of this nature don't follow the concepts of the game. The fact of the matter is that this concept could be enforced without major changes to the rules and still provide new tactics and intrest in game play.
Cold Napalm 06-09-07, 10:45 PM	Your rants are no less then my own and to point it out you started this psycho-dramamatic arguement in the first place, rather then presenting it in a reasonable context. Your logic is unsound and you missed the point of this board. It is not just the Rule-Monger approch to these rules and that is the way it is. Your defence has shifted from, "Show me an example." to, "Well that is an outdated example." The fact is that no matter what I present to the thread you will not accept it. Okay fine you did fine one example I'll grant you that. But as already pointed out, it's not a very GOOD example...but I admit you found an example. In fact if Wizards did rule that all elements fell under the element discriptor and you could only activate one at a time you would probably cry about it and keep the traditional rule as your own house rule. Even more so if they limited alingment based damages as well. It is your imagination that is lacking in this matter as in all examples. I have proposed these and other concepts as "WHAT IF?" Actually nope. If they did this in a new faq or in 4th ed, thats how I would play it. I have no problem with playing by the rules and making the flavor fit the mechanics. Your opinions are noted but they are not of a logical standpoint. Rather an attmpt to brush off an idea as it is not in the rules. In truth apply the "What If" Concept. Except that in this case it is CLEARLY in the rules. There is no what if. The rules clearly says you can have a frost and flaming and it works fine to give you 2d6 extra damage. If Wizards Restricted Bonus Damage to 1 Elemental, 1 Alingment, and 1 non elemental/alingment type damage. Would it or would it not take the knees out from under a fighter type? The answer is "No" as a Fighter is more then just his weapon. I have played in campaigns where no magical weapons or equipment of anykind where alowed. We still did well just changing our tactics. The concept of D&D in the past was that your sKills and abilites should not be surpassed your tools. Now everything is so High magic that one can barely keep up without such enhancements to your items. Mages are more fighter then they have ever been and Fighters are more mage then they have ever been. Plus look at it his way. There are magic feats increasing the potentcey of a spell but do they change a spell to offer additional types of damage? Do they offer bouns damage without negatives of higher level spell slots? Even with items that cast spells most only have a number of uses before they are worthless. A bonus damage weapon has no negatives, nor does it lose value. Actually it would indeed take the fighters out at the knee. Balance is a MECHANICAL issue not a flavor one. Flavor means NOTHING in the face of balance and balance wise, guess what, the fighter is the worst (maybe second worst after healer) PC class. The fact that YOU personally have not had this issue in your game due to player/DM influences means NOTHING as far as mechanical balance is concerned. I have been in games with druid players who aren't broken. Who are actually really weak and are used as secondary healers, secondary nukers and secondary skill monkies...and I have made a DM cry when he though my spellsword was broken using nothing but a core druid. So is the druid mechanically broken? Hell yes. Is it broken in the first groups game? Nope. So should the druid be rebalanced so it's unbroken for me but unusable for the first group? I don't think so. So back to weapons...is the elemental enchancement stacking broken? Hell no. In fact it's one of the weaker things to do. Is it broken in the OP's game? Yes. And maybe yours? I have no idea. Is it in mine? Hell no. So should they rebalance the weapon so it works for you but totally gimps my game? Welcome to the world of mechanical balance vs actual play balance. This is why when you talk about balance in the boards we use RAW. Also why there is a board standard power level that is assumed unless noted otherwise by the OP. With the ability to stack endless types of damage a DM could allow any number of elements or they could even decide that Pink fairy dust is a bounus elemental damage. An exaggerated example, but it is no diffent than just saying a weapon has 9D6 bouns damage. The stacking rule was created to prevent something from going to far. Unholy Holy weapons are twisted and crazy. Combinations of this nature don't follow the concepts of the game. You think a weapon that does an extra 9d6 damage for 200k gold is somehow broken?!? Then I'm sure you think a rogue is broken as well...much less the unholy terror that a druid/cleric/wizard can do without spending 200k no less. As for an unholy holy weapon, I had a druid who had such a weapon because the knights from the good kingdom near my forest would protect farmers who would slash and burn the forest and I had orcs razing my forest as well. I was neutral. You think that is twisted and crazy? Well your welcomed to that opinion, but is that is the case, your not welcome in my games. The fact of the matter is that this concept could be enforced without major changes to the rules and still provide new tactics and intrest in game play. COULD. But you know what, you could play a game with rule that says no higher then 5th level spells and that could enforced without major chance and that would provide new tactics and could be interesting in game play...but thats a lot of maybe I'm hearing. I'm not saying that it can't work in YOUR game...but we don't care about you. Sorry is this sounds calloused but at the end of the day, we just don't. We are talking about 1) somebody elses game and 2) RAW in general gameplay.
chronocrosselite 06-09-07, 11:23 PM	can someone give me the pages where i can find the following: how much character wealth should be spent on magic items at character creation in comparison to mundane items. i.e. like if they are lvl 7, how much of 19k should be allowed for magic items etc. the rule saying your weapon has to be at have +1 bonus THEN you can add echantments such as shock resulting in example: +1 Frost Longsword, etc. if you get what im saying. im not saying they dont exist its just i cant seem to find them and would like to know for later referencing
Salla 06-09-07, 11:27 PM	can someone give me the pages where i can find the following: how much character wealth should be spent on magic items at character creation in comparison to mundane items. i.e. like if they are lvl 7, how much of 19k should be allowed for magic items etc. Barring DM ruling (maximum of 5000 on any one item), or other DM intervention, the player can spend that 19k in whatever manner he sees fit. the rule saying your weapon has to be at have +1 bonus THEN you can add echantments such as shock resulting in example: +1 Frost Longsword, etc. From d20SRD.org: A weapon with a special ability must have at least a +1 enhancement bonus.
chronocrosselite 06-09-07, 11:29 PM	so minimum the weapon cost will be as a +2? +1 first then another for cost of Frost?
Nephlite 06-09-07, 11:35 PM	so minimum the weapon cost will be as a +2? +1 first then another for cost of Frost? If you want a Frosting weapon: You need 8k at the minimum (+ masterwork cost). You need +1 enhancvement first. Thus +1 *elemental* is earliest, case in point +1 frost is 8 K (a K is a 1000).
AAB 06-09-07, 11:53 PM	If you want a Frosting weapon: You need 8k at the minimum (+ masterwork cost). You need +1 enhancvement first. Thus +1 *elemental* is earliest, case in point +1 frost is 8 K (a K is a 1000). can you use a frosting weapon to summon cakes? i'd pay 8k for that.... mmm... cake....
porunga55 06-10-07, 12:39 AM	Unholy Holy weapons are twisted and crazy. Combinations of this nature don't follow the concepts of the game. Im sorry, but this isnt as twisted or crazy as you think, I pull an example from the Monster Manual IV, the Concordant Killer. Concordant Greatsword (Su) Carried by every Concordant Killer, these blades are an extension of thier carrier's will. Such a blade is treated as though it possessed the anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and unholy special abilities simultaneously.
AAB 06-10-07, 12:55 AM	Im sorry, but this isnt as twisted or crazy as you think, I pull an example from the Monster Manual IV, the Concordant Killer. Concordant Greatsword (Su) Carried by every Concordant Killer, these blades are an extension of thier carrier's will. Such a blade is treated as though it possessed the anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and unholy special abilities simultaneously. wasn't there a "sword of neutrality" or something similar to that in baldur's gate II?
Merestil Haye 06-10-07, 06:08 AM	Barring DM ruling (maximum of 5000 on any one item), or other DM intervention, the player can spend that 19k in whatever manner he sees fit.Actually there is a guideline statement in the DMG on page 199. It suggests imposing a limit on the maximum value spent on any one item. The example limit (and the one I generally use for newly created characters) is 25% of the wealth award. However I can be a little flexible about that amount if you give me a good reason. Ultimately it depends on the type of item and the character's ECL.
JacobReed 06-10-07, 02:08 PM	This is not the direction I intended this thread to go but it is an interesting direction. On the issue of critical attacks, assume a lvl 10 fighter class character, has a high threat weapon with keen or improved crit, the possibility of starting a critical is 1/4 at best. 1 out of every 4 strikes hits regardless of AC. Then the confirmation of the critical. Fighter types have BAB = to their class level, so a 10 lvl fighter class has a BAB of 10 + Str Mod. Add a +1 to the weapon and even a weak fighter would have an attack around +13. I did a quick count of all the monster’s AC in MM1 less dragons. I only found 25 that had AC 30 or over and this represents creatures far above a lvl 10 fighter. So the assumption that critical attacks occur on average 5% to 10% of the time is not correct or it only applies to a very low and decreasing amount of monsters as a fighter advances. Also the raw number of attacks a fighter gets over other class further decreases this. On the issue of damage, the weapons base damage is not important if anyone can stack any number of bonus damage and critical damage effects on it. Even a blow gun doing 1 point of damage — who cares when it can do xd6 + xd10 additional damage? So it is far more beneficial to select a high threat weapon. The great axe was a bad example. Fighters in general. When referring to fighters I mean all classes that get 1 BAB per level. The class of fighter is a spring board class to get you to something better. One of the defining advantages to fighters is full attack. Point for point a smart fighter can usually do more damage with bonus weapon then a spell caster can do with any spell at the same level. A fighter does not take negatives for enhancing their attacks. A spell caster loses a higher level spell slot. A fighter never runs out of attacks. A spell caster does run out of spells. Even with the ranged damage of most spells there is an unbalance in this. I heard rouges mentioned. Rouges are cracked but in the opposite way. To get the bonus sneak attacks of their class abilities they have to jump through too many hoops. It was far better when any attack form behind triggered a sneak attack but now everything gets a free spin. A rouge has to do a great deal to benefit from sneak attack. A fight dose not have to do anything for their attacks and they are always on again an unbalance. Fighter classes are by no means underpowered. In most events they are necessary. It is ventrally impossible to rase a party of low level spell casters, rouges, bards, and druids without the support form fighter classes. Try leveling a bard in one on one battles of equal challenge ratings. The bard will not last. There are many good point of views but I have to side with Omegas. The opposition has made many points but this tread was not about could something be done, it was about should something be done. By the numbers it should not. Most of the opposition is taking assumption to their numbers or ignoring a factor all together. Statistical analysis of the ratio in damage supports that overpowering weapons with bonus damage creates a unbalance between monsters and non-fighter classes. There should be a limit to the number and types of bonus damage. The one elemental one alinement thing is not a bad idea but it may be easier to make a list of countering effects Example The following types of damage counter each other on a point for point basic Good-Evil Lawful - Chaotic Positive - Negative Light - Shadow Fire - Cold It could also include Force - Sonic Electric - Acid Force and sonic are both forms of concussion waves and acid is an isolator for electric charges the same way too much electric energy to acid vaporizes it. Of corse in a confined space electric would more like detente the acid but it is still vaporized. There are many more and countering damage with damage, point for point would add a lot to D&D even if it was allied to more spells. The agreement of why it is allowed has no real reason why it shouldn’t. The statement that “It is in the rules” dose not change weather or not it should be and I don’t see where it would be considered flavor. It is all flavor. Take the name of fire ball way and its flavor text. Spell #35, Ranged (Long) does 1D6 per lvl max 10D6 (Damage type #3) in a circle 20ft R, Save #2 halves damage, cost 3gp every cast. It is all flavor if we put it that way. There is a mountain of variable and descriptions to every flavor in the books and the flavor is effected by many things. Counter damage with damage is no different. The books are both function and flavor for a reason otherwise it would be a very boring game. Even the stacking rule could be considered flavor. Fire, frost, and shock weapons are no different then a +3D6 Weapon. A +1 moral and +2 luck bonuses is still a +3 bonuses. There is little difference to, what other have revered to as, “cause.” The effect is still the bonuses even if it was a +1(love) and +2(stupidity) bonus. In fiction there is no limit to the different types of damage. I could have a war hammer with 1D6 (pixie dust) damage. This is why there should be better restrictions or definition (AKA Flavor) to the “how.” porunga55 your example is good but it does say "as though it possessed". This means it did not have anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and unholy but something like it. In the definition they are implying that it should not be done or they would have simply sed it has these features. The unique creation of the blade is the same as the differance between spells and spell like abilities. They are not spells but the effect is the same. Jacob Reed Kentucky
JacobReed 06-10-07, 02:20 PM	can you use a frosting weapon to summon cakes? i'd pay 8k for that.... mmm... cake.... LOL noo I dont think so but you should be able to use flaming weapons to make hot coco. porunga55 Kutos on the warrior + :cool: Dragon = death thing
jaelis 06-10-07, 04:02 PM	On the issue of critical attacks, assume a lvl 10 fighter class character, has a high threat weapon with keen or improved crit, the possibility of starting a critical is 1/4 at best. 1 out of every 4 strikes hits regardless of AC. That would likely be your problem. A threat is not an automatic hit, only a natural 20 is. If you crit on a 15-20 but only hit on a 17-20, a roll of 16 is a simple miss. Then the confirmation of the critical. Fighter types have BAB = to their class level, so a 10 lvl fighter class has a BAB of 10 + Str Mod. Add a +1 to the weapon and even a weak fighter would have an attack around +13. I did a quick count of all the monster’s AC in MM1 less dragons. I only found 25 that had AC 30 or over and this represents creatures far above a lvl 10 fighter. So the assumption that critical attacks occur on average 5% to 10% of the time is not correct or it only applies to a very low and decreasing amount of monsters as a fighter advances. Also the raw number of attacks a fighter gets over other class further decreases this. A fighter's first attack in the round is quite likely to hit, yes. But the following attacks are less likely, and they have a lot of your damage potential. Anyway, the crit percentages we've cited are sound. Let's say your fighter does hit every time, and he's using a keen battle axe. Then you're right, confirming happens automatically. But you still need to get a 19 or 20 on the first roll, and that happens 10% of the time. In fact he crits 10% of the time he hits even if he doesn't hit every time. To crit, he has to roll a 19 or 20 (10% chance) and then hit on the confirm. You could just as well reverse those rolls, and say that you roll to hit first, and then roll another die and crit if you get a 19 or 20. That makes it 10%. The only exception is if you only hit on a 20, in which case it is a 5% chance per hit (and hits will be rare). One of the defining advantages to fighters is full attack. Point for point a smart fighter can usually do more damage with bonus weapon then a spell caster can do with any spell at the same level. That can certainly happen, but casters also have those save or die spells that are hard for a fighter to match. [/QUOTE]
Cold Napalm 06-10-07, 04:55 PM	This is not the direction I intended this thread to go but it is an interesting direction. On the issue of critical attacks, assume a lvl 10 fighter class character, has a high threat weapon with keen or improved crit, the possibility of starting a critical is 1/4 at best. 1 out of every 4 strikes hits regardless of AC. Then the confirmation of the critical. Fighter types have BAB = to their class level, so a 10 lvl fighter class has a BAB of 10 + Str Mod. Add a +1 to the weapon and even a weak fighter would have an attack around +13. I did a quick count of all the monster’s AC in MM1 less dragons. I only found 25 that had AC 30 or over and this represents creatures far above a lvl 10 fighter. So the assumption that critical attacks occur on average 5% to 10% of the time is not correct or it only applies to a very low and decreasing amount of monsters as a fighter advances. Also the raw number of attacks a fighter gets over other class further decreases this. And if you play like this, you not playing by the rules. Only a nat 20 auto hits...EVERYTHING else need to still hit normally or you don't even do normal damage much less crit damage. Congradulation, it's broken because your not playing by the rules. On the issue of damage, the weapons base damage is not important if anyone can stack any number of bonus damage and critical damage effects on it. Even a blow gun doing 1 point of damage — who cares when it can do xd6 + xd10 additional damage? So it is far more beneficial to select a high threat weapon. The great axe was a bad example. Umm even then it's STILL cruddy. You want the math? Okay biggest crit range is 18-20 keened/improved crit to 15-20 so 25% of the time AT most, you do 1d10 extra damage. 1d6 ALL the time is STILL better and a straight +1 with power attack is about the same as the 1d6 extra damage anyways. So yes no matter what burst is a cruddy weapon enchantment. Fighters in general. When referring to fighters I mean all classes that get 1 BAB per level. The class of fighter is a spring board class to get you to something better. One of the defining advantages to fighters is full attack. Point for point a smart fighter can usually do more damage with bonus weapon then a spell caster can do with any spell at the same level. A fighter does not take negatives for enhancing their attacks. A spell caster loses a higher level spell slot. A fighter never runs out of attacks. A spell caster does run out of spells. Even with the ranged damage of most spells there is an unbalance in this. Umm if your fighter is doing damage...yeah. Guess what I can make a fighter at level 8 do over 200 damage a round. Guess what...the druid and clerics and wizards are STILL stronger. Damage isn't the be all end of the game. If you think so, then you have yet to truely understand the horror that this game of D&D is with balance. I heard rouges mentioned. Rouges are cracked but in the opposite way. To get the bonus sneak attacks of their class abilities they have to jump through too many hoops. It was far better when any attack form behind triggered a sneak attack but now everything gets a free spin. A rouge has to do a great deal to benefit from sneak attack. A fight dose not have to do anything for their attacks and they are always on again an unbalance. Umm I hide and move silently is jumping through hoops? Drink a potion of invis? The wizard casts improved invis on me? Hell I'll be a arcane trickster...I just do it because I say so. Fighter classes are by no means underpowered. In most events they are necessary. It is ventrally impossible to rase a party of low level spell casters, rouges, bards, and druids without the support form fighter classes. Try leveling a bard in one on one battles of equal challenge ratings. The bard will not last. Your so wrong that it's not even funny. At low levels the cleric can be up front just fine. The druids animal companion works as well until he gets wild shape. There are many good point of views but I have to side with Omegas. The opposition has made many points but this tread was not about could something be done, it was about should something be done. By the numbers it should not. Most of the opposition is taking assumption to their numbers or ignoring a factor all together. Statistical analysis of the ratio in damage supports that overpowering weapons with bonus damage creates a unbalance between monsters and non-fighter classes. There should be a limit to the number and types of bonus damage. The one elemental one alinement thing is not a bad idea but it may be easier to make a list of countering effects Example The following types of damage counter each other on a point for point basic Good-Evil Lawful - Chaotic Positive - Negative Light - Shadow Fire - Cold It could also include Force - Sonic Electric - Acid Force and sonic are both forms of concussion waves and acid is an isolator for electric charges the same way too much electric energy to acid vaporizes it. Of corse in a confined space electric would more like detente the acid but it is still vaporized. There are many more and countering damage with damage, point for point would add a lot to D&D even if it was allied to more spells. The agreement of why it is allowed has no real reason why it shouldn’t. The statement that “It is in the rules” dose not change weather or not it should be and I don’t see where it would be considered flavor. It is all flavor. Take the name of fire ball way and its flavor text. Spell #35, Ranged (Long) does 1D6 per lvl max 10D6 (Damage type #3) in a circle 20ft R, Save #2 halves damage, cost 3gp every cast. It is all flavor if we put it that way. There is a mountain of variable and descriptions to every flavor in the books and the flavor is effected by many things. Counter damage with damage is no different. The books are both function and flavor for a reason otherwise it would be a very boring game. No you were not very clear on if something SHOULD be done. The OP seemed to be more about I think this rule is broken. Our reply is no it isn't. One your not playing your crit rules correctly. Then you can't even understand how weak numerically the burst enchantment is no matter what. And now you think you can fiddle with the rules willy nilly with your rather limited knoweldge?!? Well go ahead. It's you game...just don't complain on the board about anymore then if your not gonna listen to us anyways. Most things in D&D games when you go OMG thats so broken is becuase the DM isn't following the rules...guess what your not following the rules. Even the stacking rule could be considered flavor. Fire, frost, and shock weapons are no different then a +3D6 Weapon. A +1 moral and +2 luck bonuses is still a +3 bonuses. There is little difference to, what other have revered to as, “cause.” The effect is still the bonuses even if it was a +1(love) and +2(stupidity) bonus. In fiction there is no limit to the different types of damage. I could have a war hammer with 1D6 (pixie dust) damage. This is why there should be better restrictions or definition (AKA Flavor) to the “how.” And this shows exactly how little you know about the rules. Moral bonus is easier to get then luck bonus and since bonuses don't stack other the dodge and circumstance luck bonus is worth more. 1d6 fire 1d6 frost and 1d6 electitciy damage is NOT the same as 3d6 damage. ER and DR work differently. Your so clueless about the rules, you should learn them before you go about fiddling with them. porunga55 your example is good but it does say "as though it possessed". This means it did not have anarchic, axiomatic, holy, and unholy but something like it. In the definition they are implying that it should not be done or they would have simply sed it has these features. The unique creation of the blade is the same as the differance between spells and spell like abilities. They are not spells but the effect is the same. Jacob Reed Kentucky You realize that is done in MANY items and spells and..whatever, it's your game. You weren't clear on what you wanted and if this is what you want, fine your game. Fell free to do what you want, but I suggest you learn the rules before houseruling things. If you don't, next time you post help me fix my game, I'm not gonna hold an ounce back (yes this is me being nice).
Anguirus23 06-10-07, 05:34 PM	JacobReed, it's not that you didn't understand that a critical threat is not an auto-hit. After all, many of us probably have made the same mistake before. But if you'd spent time reading the thread you started, this was addressed. Several people looked at the numbers to try to understand your problem, and all of them gave you sound reasons why, whether or not they are logical, if you play by the rules multi-burst weapons are weak. Your recent response indicates that you aren't even reading the thread in detail. You're just searching for someone to agree with you.
Twylyght 06-10-07, 07:00 PM	well on the case of opposed elements on the same attack, its worth bringing up the concept that the damage not need be imagined instantly being applied. A round is 6 seconds of time, so the idea that theres enough time for a chemical reaction or two is plenty. heres two thoughts on flame/frost This first one inspired by the name of a member of this very topic. Cold Napalm, This longsword functions as a +1 flaming frosting longsword. When the command word is spoken, the blade takes on an oily blue sheen, occasional specks, like bright white embers drift away from the blade.The blade releases extremely cold oily gel saturated with flakes of white phosphorus. The gel evaperates very swiftly once sepperated from the blade leaving the flakes of white phoshorus behind, dry, and exposed to atmospheric oxygen..... Impulse, This weapon functions as a +2 frosting flaming shortsword. When the command word is spoken this blade is sheathed in a brilliant red flame from the tip to half way to the hilt. The rest of blade and much of the hilt begins to frost over, caked moisture flaking from the weapon. When the weapon strikes the blade instantly steals all kinetic energy from the molecules in a small radius around the blade (this would create a small pocket reaching absolute zero) then a split second later releases it in a flash of magical fire.
risner 06-10-07, 09:07 PM	1 out of every 4 strikes hits regardless of AC. False. Or did I misunderstand you? If you have a 15-20 crit thread weapon and you have a total attack bonus of +3, if you roll a 15 you get 18. If the AC of the monster is 19 or greater, you miss, you do not threaten a crit, and you do not pass go (you deal no damage.)
lrellok 06-10-07, 10:13 PM	:P We experimented with this idea using mock battles. I role out treasure before every battle and it is truly impossible to randomly role a 3 burst weapon for a monster so we equipped an equal, challenge encounter and gave then all scimitars, maces, and scythes with the 3 burst enhancements. The players exchanged their weapon enhancements with equivalent value weapon enhancements of their choice, but no bonus damage. Even with 2 vorpal weapons and various other magic weapons the monsters destroyed the party. We tried several battles with different tactics and foes. The -5 challenge rated horde of goblins equipped only with keen, kukries, mutli-burst weapons was an impossible encounter. The players with high AC lasted longer but with little effect. I calculated each encounter as instructed in the DMG and modified the CR for the weapons. Giving the players back their multi-burst weapons they where able to effectively attack and kill creatures +8 challenge above their levels using good tactics. There where a few creatures that had advantages that over powered these weapons but this make a small fraction of the monsters in all the monster manuals. Please understand, i don't enjoy saying this, but i see it so often on these boards, it's easy to spot. the problem is not with your player charicters. you are underplaying your monsters. First, self designed monsters would not have random treasure. This is one of the things that makes BBEG's so big and bad, their equipment is custom to their tactics. second, how and why where you ajusting CR to account for treasure. it's already factored into CR that a creature will be using whatever items it posseses to defend itself. the dead give away, and i see this so many times its almost normal, is that you party was able to haddle a +8 cr at all. I've TPKed parties with a well built cr +1. When you say hoard of goblins, how many are we talking? this is really important, so bear with me. lets say your party was 14 level on average. -5 is 9th level, but goblins are 1/3cr, so a 10th level goblin is CR9. now DMG p 48 states that the CR (or EL) of an encounter increases by 2 every time the number of creatures doubles. So 2 cr9 goblins= cr11, 4=cr13, 8=cr15, 16=cr17, 32=cr19, and by that point the lev 14 party should be dead. Further, this formula only reflect the direct increase in numbers, and not the strategic/tactical advantages derived from outnumbering ones opponent in combat. Fighting one eldrich giant is a compleatly differant prospect then fighting 8 well leveled goblins. It's the differance of surrounding ones opponent VS being surrounded by ones opponent. Do this for me. repeat your test. Use 8 level 10 goblins, outfit them as you would expect your players to outfit their charicters (16000 gp each, DMG p127) and run the charicters against them with and without the bursting weapons. and keep whats below in mind:D
Twylyght 06-11-07, 02:21 AM	lrellok, i just have to comment that sig is a great bit of wisdom. And speaking of goblins, I cant count how many times ive seen DMs using goblins like they had an Int of 4 or less. I even got yelled at by a player once when I was running a game after the first round where 2 goblins charged and got ate by the players spike chain AoOs the rest of the goblins decided to pull out thier bows and switch to ranged tactics.... Goblins and kolbolds are my all time favorite tools for adjusting players out of the "NPCs are fodder" mindset. They have "heroes" among them just as we do. they understand and use group tactics... and usually with much greater numbers. they ambush, they set traps. What they dont do is keep running at the same guy with the magic weapon whos already one shotted the last three who tried. That being said, while running these scenarios the players dominated with those weapons, does anything going up against those players understand the concept of magic weapons? Dealing with weapon fighters in general? Its amazing how usefull unexpected little things can be. A hightened, focused grease spell can do hillarious things to those types who have blown the whole lot of their wealth on a single weapon. The entice gift spell is fun as well. Oh and lets not forget the comedy value of Dominate Person on the guy in the middle of the party.
Rigeld 06-11-07, 09:27 AM	OR perhaps it is an example because they are direct oppisites. It does mention heat and chill metal in the text. It is possible that they used this as the example for the rest of simullar effects. If they meant it to applay to all cases of cold/fire, they wouldve said something to the effect of "Chill Metal cancels Heat Metal, similarly to how fire cancels cold." Plus it matters not what spell it is. If you have chilled someones equipment any fire damage even fire ball or flare reduse the cold damage. If it was just these two spells then I could agree with your point but it is open to be counterd my any fire or Ice source even natural. If someone chilled my buckler I could stick my whole arm in a camp fire and counter the cold damage. Not very productive but it does counter the cold. First, cite a rule saying that (natural fire/cold can be cancelled, or that a fireball and an ice storm hitting in the same round will cancel each other). Second, youre right, it doesnt matter what the spell is... because we arent talking about spells. We're talking about weapon enhancements. It doesnt matter if the ability has a spell as a pre-requisite, after it gets put on a weapon, the spell used is no longer relevant. I am failing to see in jacobs post where he asked about the caster level of the weapons creation. This topic would make a good new thread. It came up because Evicmar decided to say that a +8 (equivilant) sword requires an Epic mage to enchant, and so would be balanced in epic. Its balanced long before that - the enchantments chosen are pathetic. Mostly because JacobReed doesnt realize that a threat != a hit. JacobReed, the order to process a hit is as follows: 1) Determine if you hit. Rolling a 20 means you automatically hit. 2) Determine if you threat. 3) If you threat, roll to hit again, to see if you crit. Rolling a 20 automatically confirms a crit. Note that your threat range doesnt matter till step 2, which is after you see if you hit.
Rulebook 06-11-07, 02:12 PM	a sword with a total enhancement bonus (from +'s and enhancements) of +8 is NOT epic. totals higher than +11 are epic. weapons with enhancement bonuses (the + part) of +6 or higher are epic. you can have up to +5 enhancement bonus, and everything else goes to +9 worth of stuff. (a +1 burst/burst/burst/burst keen sword for example is not epic, the same sword as a +2 IS epic)
Nephlite 06-11-07, 02:59 PM	Please understand, i don't enjoy saying this, but i see it so often on these boards, it's easy to spot. the problem is not with your player charicters. you are underplaying your monsters. First, self designed monsters would not have random treasure. This is one of the things that makes BBEG's so big and bad, their equipment is custom to their tactics. second, how and why where you ajusting CR to account for treasure. it's already factored into CR that a creature will be using whatever items it posseses to defend itself. the dead give away, and i see this so many times its almost normal, is that you party was able to haddle a +8 cr at all. I've TPKed parties with a well built cr +1. When you say hoard of goblins, how many are we talking? this is really important, so bear with me. lets say your party was 14 level on average. -5 is 9th level, but goblins are 1/3cr, so a 10th level goblin is CR9. now DMG p 48 states that the CR (or EL) of an encounter increases by 2 every time the number of creatures doubles. So 2 cr9 goblins= cr11, 4=cr13, 8=cr15, 16=cr17, 32=cr19, and by that point the lev 14 party should be dead. Further, this formula only reflect the direct increase in numbers, and not the strategic/tactical advantages derived from outnumbering ones opponent in combat. Fighting one eldrich giant is a compleatly differant prospect then fighting 8 well leveled goblins. It's the differance of surrounding ones opponent VS being surrounded by ones opponent. Do this for me. repeat your test. Use 8 level 10 goblins, outfit them as you would expect your players to outfit their charicters (16000 gp each, DMG p127) and run the charicters against them with and without the bursting weapons. and keep whats below in mind:D Plus, don't have all ghe goblins warriors: use a spellcaster with some protection (cover, etc) casting spells (battlefield control, damaging, save or sucks, etc.)
mvincent 06-11-07, 03:34 PM	I didn't see this mentioned earlier, but (for those that desire) the 3.5 FAQ says: "There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired." fwiw: for their cost, multi-burst weapons are not very optimal.
Omegas 06-11-07, 09:47 PM	I have seen this house rule before. Ctiticals can be rear and many DMs accept the one or more of the following house rule to make up for it. Threat is equal to the (20) Auto hit rule. Threat is extended to conformation. (kind of mut but some times) Any threat roll is a critial no conformation needed. Conformation is a Auto Kill There was a big deal with the idea that even a child should be able to fire a crossbow and shoot a level 40 anything in the head and it should die. I can pick up an axe and I dont care how good your are if I hit your head your dead. Some of it was over played like house rule 4 but with the way it is set up by the rules it is vertally impossibal to Auto Kill. Rules 1 - 3 are ballanced after level 10 but not suggested for lower levels. They have to apply for NPC and Monsters as well to be ballanced but it just means more Criticals are pass around. It was a big deal about 3 years ago in several conventions. There where many more but these 4 where the basic ones. I have even used some of them from time to time. In some ways they make the game more fun. But as weak as humans are to damage in real life it is time consuming to reroll a character. The Multi-Elemental bonus on the other hand is a valid point. I understand what he is talking about with non-fighters and a Cleric should be considered in that pack due to the armor prof. Druids are probubly the most powerful of the non-fighters but look at this way. "number by number" Assume two fighting cages one fighter one mage. Make the cage the average side of a normal game bourd where even a base movent 20 toon can be to the side in 2 rounds. Give the mage only damaging spells at oppisite ends of the game bourd with equipment ment for a mage. Make the fighter in base contact with the creature and give them the best gear for thier level. Now you have simi normal battle conditions for a fight. Make the creature adverage at any level. Is the fighter going to be at the same health as the mage when the mage is at base contact? Now 2X the game bourd. At what range does the mage have to be to match the fighters durablitly over damage? Switch the concept. Place the mage in base contact and the fighter at a distance. Does the mage do a significate amount of damage before dropping. At what distance does the fighter drop before reaching the creature? In all answers the mage is the chump unless the game board is eather the size of a truck or a small room. The fighter usally wins as he will attack with range weapons every round until he is in base contact and then rip into the target. I guess the best way to say it is that HP, AC, and Feats make up for damage. Mages are as put Glass Cannons in open combat. There are a good number of spells that reduse this glass effect but so long as they are toying with being durable they are not damaging the enemies. The fighter is ready to go on a moments notest. In most battles they are the first to do damage and overall more damage then most mages or support toons by the end of the battle. Multipying the amount of damage they do in each attack is like raising the dice type of every spell cast by a mage. Raise a fire ball form 1D6s to 1D8s is the samething as making a fighter do D12 + 1D6 several times over. Thier number of attacks with thier durability overpower mages when you buff those attacks with to many bonus damages. As he put it by the numbers in a true battle fighters take the advantage. In all the battles I have seen the only time a mage surpasses a fighter is when they are first protected by one and second when they are facing a low number of tagets at a distance. I have played with more then 1000 different DMs. The key to killing any mage is base contact. The key to killing a fighter is avoiding base contact. Normal game maps do not provide the distance to be that effective. Too much bonus damage to weapons is overpowered in any form. Opposite damage countering is interesting. 5 games thus far and the players love it. They hated it at first but now they say they would not play any other way. 18 other DMs are trying it with positive results. Many mages are keeping spells with conflicting damage types. They still work. One addition to it is that the players are keeping track of damage types they have recieved each round. Damage is countered point for point. Try it you may like it and 5 minutes does not count. Give it a real chance.
Omegas 06-11-07, 09:56 PM	One observation; It is funny for it being a so called simple concept and accpeted in the RAW ruling. Why do so many people think it is overpowered or not possible? Maybe there is something to that. KPR Omegas
SkyOdin 06-12-07, 01:14 AM	One observation; It is funny for it being a so called simple concept and accpeted in the RAW ruling. Why do so many people think it is overpowered or not possible? How many is "So many people"? Who are they? I am sorry if I am being rude, but arguements such as these are not very good unless you can cite some studies or research or something. It is impossible to tell how many people in the world, or in any given community, actually believe something, just by looking at a messageboard. Anecdotal evidence is similarly useless for drawing such conclusions. The mathematical evidence given by people in this thread is much more convincing regarding whether or not stacking flaming and frost are overpowered or not. As for whether or not it is possible flavor wise, I have mixed feeelings. However, it comes down to the fact that I think a +1 flaming frost weapon sounds like a cool idea to me.:)
Rigeld 06-12-07, 09:05 AM	In all answers the mage is the chump unless the game board is eather the size of a truck or a small room. The fighter usally wins as he will attack with range weapons every round until he is in base contact and then rip into the target. Wow. Have you read any of the fighter balance threads? Huge thread derail, but youre wrong here.
Frugal 06-12-07, 09:14 AM	One observation; It is funny for it being a so called simple concept and accpeted in the RAW ruling. Why do so many people think it is overpowered or not possible? Well, overpowered usually comes from incorrectly applying the crit rules, as the OP was (threat is an auto-hit).
Evicmar 06-12-07, 10:39 AM	I've gone thru and reread the section in the DMG about creating magic swords. I saw no mention of how to handle multiple special abilities. So this part is up to DM discretion. I view the abilities level equivilent bonus as being no different that the magic enhancement on to hit and damage of the sword. The more abilites the higher level the caster required to create the item. This keeps overpowered gear from destroying the game. If you as DM choose to allow each level adjustment for special abilities to be counted seperately then you should be prepared for what you are in for. As for the fire and frost weapons, it's magic. It does not have to follow any laws of physics. It just happens and let it go. Prior to the stated weapon from the planar handbook there was a sword of transmutation that after one hit would automatically bypass the DR that it encountered for the next minute or till it hit a new DR to adjust to. Remember, it's a game and ment to be fun. Keep it fun.
calvinNhobbes 06-12-07, 01:03 PM	The artwork of the MTG cards: Sword of fire and ice and Sword of light and shadow depict a pretty good idea of what magical swords with opposite effects could look like. http://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGDST/sword_of_fire_and_ice.jpghttp://sales.starcitygames.com/cardscans/MAGDST/sword_of_light_and_shadow.jpg
Cold Napalm 06-12-07, 08:11 PM	Okay omegas...I'm not gonna quote that whole post but a few points... 1) you give the wizard damage spells only and the fighter EVERYTHING?!? Yeah no wonder the fighter wins all the time. Lets give the wizard the wizard spell list and see what happens. Been done, the fighter loses at high levels unless they are within charge range (even then contingency trumps). 2) You seem to be under this misguided impression that damage is all that good an option. While it is a good option in low level play, by mid/high, there is soooo much better things you can do. 3) if you think multi element (or even worse burst) are even remotly good, then you need to met my jortunenbrun duel whip wielding fighter. Yes whip...yes I do 0 damage against just about EVERYTHING...but nothing in a 20 feet radius of me is going anywhere...or keeping their weapon. You have no idea how much more broken that is compared to just piddly damage. I mean even my uber charger (not quite CO level, only does 150ish damage a round at level 9) is nowhere near as effective in combat as the duel whip wielding maniac. 4) As for crit house rules...I have seen it. I have played 3 of the 4. They don't work...which is why you don't see them anymore much. That said the OP did not say he was using this as a houserule. Even then, assuming best possible outcome, burst is STILL weak. remember that burst AT best (using a 3rd ed weapon no less since the orcish shotput is the only weapon with a 19-20/X3 crit range) comes out to 2.6 damage a hit for a +1 bonus. A STRAIGHT +1 enchantment is worth +3 damage. Most other weapons come out to below +2 damage per hit. The math aside, when you played with those crit house rules, some concessioners were made since it unbalanced a lot of things (at least in games that were done well). For instance a cirt on 20 only meant that you had to adjust any 19-20/18-20 weapon since they were balanced for the bigger range. It also meant that burst became nigh useless in some cases depending on ruling. All in all, it just caused too much headache to mess with the crit range/modifiers. The easier you auto confirm rules makes burst a bit better...but still not even remotly worth a +1 over the regular element or even a straight +1 enchancement. It's easy to implement, but even then they did not have you auto hit on a threat (at least in anygame I have been in) since an auto hit 30% of the time is broken to say the least (and if that is the case nobody with half a brain would be using anything but scimitars, rapiers and kukris). Too deadly at low levels as you said though. Auto kill on a confirm might sound like a good idea for those who keep touting "realism" but who wants to make a new character roughly 10-15% of the time they face anyone with a rapier (well anyone of relivent challange)? But once again it NEVER uses an auto hit on a threat rule. In anycase since OP never said anything about crit houserules, we have to assume he is just playing wrong without knowing about it. I mean theoretically he COULD have a house rule that says a threat is a hit...but then again THAT might be a rather useless houserule and getting rid of that would be an easier fix to his problems then going head to head with his "broken" players...especially since he's the one that broke em anyways if that is the case.
NorseViking 06-12-07, 08:32 PM	So, does the flaming, frost, sonic, etc. damage on a weapon stack with weapon crystals of fire, sonic, acid etc? Meaning someone with a +1 frost battleaxe with a crystal of frost assault on it will do 1d8+1+2d6 ice damage?