Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rleonardh 05-29-06, 02:30 AM	Ok you are talking to a real newbe player here. Ok I want to make arrows, it says to take the 1gp and turen it into sp. Than use 1/3 of cost. Question is: 3 sp to make 20 arrows? Question 2, could i make it from basic things i find in the woods and skip the cost (wood, feathers and fire to harden the tips).
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-29-06, 02:44 AM	Ok I want to make arrows, it says to take the 1gp and turen it into sp. Than use 1/3 of cost. Question is: 3 sp to make 20 arrows? Yes, assuming you don't botch a check and end up ruining some of your raw materials and having to replace them. Question 2, could i make it from basic things i find in the woods and skip the cost (wood, feathers and fire to harden the tips). You wouldn't be skipping the cost. Your DM would probably have you make checks to find the materials (likely Search or Survival checks), treat the materials you find as trade goods (essentially money in another form), and then take the cost out of them.
Norsesmithy 05-29-06, 02:55 AM	^Not to mention that the majority of cost associated would be in the arrowhead.
Shaggy_Shaggs 05-29-06, 03:03 AM	:thinks: Now I find myself wondering what the Survival check DC is to locate obsidian in various terrain types.
Borris 05-29-06, 03:36 AM	It'd most likely be a Profession (Miner) check. Under th eProfession skill description in the PHB, it says: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. So I'd just use this check to determine the value of the materials you found, using silver pieces instead of gp if you want to check your progress by the day.
rleonardh 05-29-06, 11:07 AM	ok thanks for the help, but have another question. Do I just make the arrows and then use 3 sp or do i go to a shop and buy arrow stuff?
woodwalker 05-29-06, 04:04 PM	id say that a survival check to find the materials at a DC of 15.
Rolof 06-01-06, 07:28 PM	Probably not what you want to hear, but the game I'm in, the DM does it like this: the .33 gold buys the arrowheads, he assumes that craft bowyer and craft weaponsmith are two seperate skills, and smiths make the heads, bowyers make the shafts and fletchings. So, before traveling, I have to buy the arrowheads (1 pound per 20 for encumbrance, which is 1/3 of the 3 pounds 20 arrows weigh) and while we adventure, it is just assumed that I work nights around the campfire making the arrows. You can take 10 on craft checks by the way, which helps immensely. That way you don't have to worry about what Shaggs was saying, about failing a check and ruining materials. Depends on the strictness of your game, but I think if you just completely manufacture arrows yourself in the wilds, then your arrows would be considered primitive or stoneage weapons and do less damage. So, don't go bother looking for obsidian with survival checks unless your DM is gonna let you get away with it. Oh, and don't forget to buy a set of artisan's tools...otherwise craft checks are made with a negative modifier. If you've got the cash, buy masterwork tools, they give you a +2 bonus to the check...of course, then you feel kinda silly spending 55 gold on tools to make something you could have just bought in the first place for 1 gold...being an archer has its drawbacks.
Shadowfax7 06-01-06, 09:18 PM	I handle it similar to your DM, Rolof. I use a DC 15 Craft (weaponsmithing) check for making arrowheads because they are listed under martial weapons and a DC 12 Craft (bowmaking) check for making the arrow shafts because it should be simpler.
Jaeron Dalur 06-02-06, 12:24 AM	I handle it similar to your DM, Rolof. I use a DC 15 Craft (weaponsmithing) check for making arrowheads because they are listed under martial weapons and a DC 12 Craft (bowmaking) check for making the arrow shafts because it should be simpler. Why bowmaking? What does being able to make a bow have to do with making arrows? They are completely different. If you are going to split it up into small bits in order to craft it then you might as well force checks on all the different parts. A craft(weaponsmithing) check for the arrowheads; a craft(woodworking) check for the shaft; and a craft(fletching/featherworking) check for the fletching. While you're at it. Platemail should require separate steps as well. One craft(armorsmithing) check for the armor plates; one craft(blacksmithing) check for the buckles, and one craft(leatherworking) check for the straps to hold it together. (I am unsure if I mean this sarcasticaly or not)
Norsesmithy 06-02-06, 02:39 AM	Having made a selfbow, knapped flint, and manufactured and fletched shafts, I can tell you this: Of all the steps I just mentioned, straight, balanced, and acuratly fleched shafts are the hardest to do. Making a 50 pound self bow from any decently straight tree in the forest takes less time and is easier than making a single quality arrow. Flint knapping arrowheads is almost as hard, but unless you intend to go for deer-sized prey, just sharpening and fire-hardening the shaft is generally good enough. Making a good composite bow, on the other hand, is harder than making arrows.
Shadowfax7 06-02-06, 12:21 PM	Why bowmaking? What does being able to make a bow have to do with making arrows? They are completely different. In D&D the skill, Craft (bowmaking) includes fletching. See the PHB Skills section under Craft for a list of crafting skills, as well as other examples in the books. Either way, are you going to force your PCs to take enough ranks in both Craft (bowmaking) and in Craft (fletching) in order to make a MW bow and MW arrows ?? I am not. But to have them take ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) to make metal arrowheads, yes. This is because you need a forge and the skill to use a forge to do so.
Jaeron Dalur 06-02-06, 07:17 PM	In D&D the skill, Craft (bowmaking) includes fletching. See the PHB Skills section under Craft for a list of crafting skills, as well as other examples in the books. Either way, are you going to force your PCs to take enough ranks in both Craft (bowmaking) and in Craft (fletching) in order to make a MW bow and MW arrows ?? I am not. But to have them take ranks in Craft (weaponsmithing) to make metal arrowheads, yes. This is because you need a forge and the skill to use a forge to do so. So, because the craft(bowmaking) skill exists, it logicaly follows that bowmaking includes arrowmaking? How do come up with that answer? It makes no mention of the bowmaking skill other than it's used to make bows. The skill description doesn't even mention arrows. And what is the difference between forcing a player to take craft(bowmaking) to make bows and craft(fletching) to make arrows, and forcing them to take craft(bowmaking) to make bows and arrows and craft(weaponsmithing) to ALSO make arrows? Another thing to consider: The craft(weaponsmithing) skill includes being able to make wooden weapons. Why would this not apply to making complete arrows and bolts as well? And, if not, what is the skill to make sling bullets since ammunition is clearly not covered by craft(weaponsmithing) alone?
Rolof 06-02-06, 09:05 PM	So, because the craft(bowmaking) skill exists, it logicaly follows that bowmaking includes arrowmaking? How do come up with that answer? It makes no mention of the bowmaking skill other than it's used to make bows. The skill description doesn't even mention arrows. You're quite right about that, it doesn't mention arrows-nor does ANY other skill description. Which is why the player of an archery-based character and the DM have to put their heads together and figure out some ground rules, much as a paladin player should to avoid all these incessant 'what if my paladin kills a baby drow?' threads. Because without an actual rule, there is no DC for creating arrows, either-most DMs will say DC 12 because it's the nearest equivalent, but some more lenient DMs will allow you DC 10; assuming the arrows are easier to produce than the bow. As for the logic of why bowmaking includes arrows, I only speak for myself: I've been playing since before 2nd edition when the skills were called proficiencies, and the relevant proficiency for such things was called BOWYER/FLETCHER. Quite honestly I think the craft rules are screwy, and need to be totally redone, along with Profession. As it is, a fighter can be a master craftsman and make the best armor in the whole world, but not make any money off it because they aren't allowed to have a Profession unless they take cross- class ranks with the precious few skill points they get. AD&D 2nd Edition Player's Handbook, page 58: Bowyer/Fletcher: This character can make bows and arrows of the types given in Table 44, page 68. A weaponsmith is required to fashion arrowheads, but the bowyer/fletcher can perform all other necessary functions. At the very least, 3.5 could do us a favor and be as clear as this is, or a new rule for it entirely.
Shadowfax7 06-02-06, 11:13 PM	So, because the craft(bowmaking) skill exists, it logicaly follows that bowmaking includes arrowmaking? How do come up with that answer? It makes no mention of the bowmaking skill other than it's used to make bows. The skill description doesn't even mention arrows. Like I said there are examples in various books of the use of Craft (bowmaking) to make arrows under the presumption that it should be Craft (bowmaking/fletching). However, if you are looking for RAW, you won't find it because it's just not there for some stupid reason. I don't mind a friendly discussion on a subject, but I responded to a poster about how I do something similar to his DM IMC. Why are you so concerned about how I play ?? You play how you want, and I play how I want. And what is the difference between forcing a player to take craft(bowmaking) to make bows and craft(fletching) to make arrows, and forcing them to take craft(bowmaking) to make bows and arrows and craft(weaponsmithing) to ALSO make arrows? I already gave you my answer >>> This is because you need a forge and the skill to use a forge to do so. Another thing to consider: The craft(weaponsmithing) skill includes being able to make wooden weapons. Why would this not apply to making complete arrows and bolts as well? And, if not, what is the skill to make sling bullets since ammunition is clearly not covered by craft(weaponsmithing) alone?This is a fair ruling in your own campaign, but I choose to do it different. That is all. I want to give Craft (bowmaking/fletching) more things to do, rather than add more to Craft (weaponsmithing). I do agree that sling bullets would be made by Craft (weaponsmithing) as metal arrowheads would be.
Jaeron Dalur 06-03-06, 07:21 PM	Like I said there are examples in various books of the use of Craft (bowmaking) to make arrows under the presumption that it should be Craft (bowmaking/fletching). However, if you are looking for RAW, you won't find it because it's just not there for some stupid reason. I don't mind a friendly discussion on a subject, but I responded to a poster about how I do something similar to his DM IMC. Why are you so concerned about how I play ?? You play how you want, and I play how I want. Forgive me, I did not intend to come off as rude, belitling, or mocking. Though I now see that it could have (easily) been interpreted that way. This is a fair ruling in your own campaign, but I choose to do it different. That is all. I want to give Craft (bowmaking/fletching) more things to do, rather than add more to Craft (weaponsmithing). I do agree that sling bullets would be made by Craft (weaponsmithing) as metal arrowheads would be.You are completely right. It's your campaign and what works for you is fine. Especially when you have to wing it because of lack of a proper description. Your way of doing it does make a fair bit of sense. My point was that I thought it was a bit unnececarily complex (though if you think it makes more sense your way then it's obviously not unnecesary). It is quickly becoming clear to me that the craft system is either poorly thought-out or intentionally set up to make certain craft skills more usefull than others. Craft(weaponsmithing) covers all types of different crafts, from woodworking, to blacksmithing. Maybe the real problem is that the craft(armorsmithing) and craft(weaponsmithing) skills exist at all. A blacksmith is incapable of making a sword and a person with enough skill to make a sword is going to have trouble making a horseshoe? A professional leatherworker is unable to make a peice of leather armor and a person who makes leather armor for a living is going to have trouble making a backpack? What if the craft skills were based on the actual type of work being done and for the more complex tasks like producing an acceptable edge on a sword/axe/arrowhead, making a decent arrowshaft, or properly curing leather for use as armor require a sort of proficiency skill? I'll set some ideas to keyboard about this and put them up in the skills board if you or anyone else is interested.
Rolof 06-03-06, 10:01 PM	Jaeron, I think the main problem is that WotC got lazy in my opinion, by just trying to save space/description text in every possible craft skill. Instead of doing so, they simply put "craft". That's rather generic, and didn't used to be like that. Skills (then called proficiencies) had individual names and descriptions rather than one catch-all entry. I think it would have been far better had they stuck to the old names of skills, and listed them all seperately. While it might have taken a bit more room, it would've been much better, and they certainly haven't been niggling when it came to space for some other stuff that I find utterly useless. I actually think the ultimate answer would be to merge the craft skills with the profession skills, and have them named individually...thus an armorer is someone who makes armor and can 'coast' through a week if he wants, make what now is called a profession check to make a bit of gold, and then use armorer to actually create armor when that is desired. Some of the current profession rules state such already, but in a confusing or nebulous way. For instance the profession (sailor) description says the user can tie knots etc, typical to use onboard a ship...yet unless the character also is a rogue or ranger, they don't have use rope as a skill, unless they buy ranks cross class. Confusing. Even worse, there's no description of what the various professions are, that I'm aware of at least, unless you start looking in various other books. Just looking in the player's gives you very little info. Ditto for craft. For example, reading one of the supplement books recently in the bookstore, I found a feat one could take-if you had a minimum number of ranks in craft (taxidermy). It basically allowed you to create trophies from bits of fallen creatures you had killed while adventuring, and seemed like a nice flavor feat-something for some bragging rights. But since I had no idea there was such a thing as craft (taxidermy) at 1st level, I had no ranks in it.
Jaeron Dalur 06-03-06, 10:18 PM	Rolof, maybe a "Grand List of Crafts and Professions" is in order then? Just a big list of every craft and profession skill mentioned in the books and any that might be needed but have never been mentioned.
Shadowfax7 06-04-06, 01:03 PM	A blacksmith is incapable of making a sword and a person with enough skill to make a sword is going to have trouble making a horseshoe? A professional leatherworker is unable to make a peice of leather armor and a person who makes leather armor for a living is going to have trouble making a backpack?I haven't messed around w/the Craft system becuase it's fairly complex and a fix would be even more complex. However, I did change one thing . . . I thought it was unfair that Artisan's Tools were needed for each and every Craft skill. I thus allowed Artisan's Tools for metalworking, woodworking, leatherworking, etc., rather than for each Craft Skill. Now this brings the problem that tools for Blacksmithing are not the same as for Armorsmithing, even though they both might work on metal. Thus I work under the presumption that in the metalworking tools there are tools for working on metal armor, horseshoes, etc. It has loopholes, but then the RAW way does also.
Jaeron Dalur 06-04-06, 07:57 PM	I haven't messed around w/the Craft system becuase it's fairly complex and a fix would be even more complex. However, I did change one thing . . . I thought it was unfair that Artisan's Tools were needed for each and every Craft skill. I thus allowed Artisan's Tools for metalworking, woodworking, leatherworking, etc., rather than for each Craft Skill. Now this brings the problem that tools for Blacksmithing are not the same as for Armorsmithing, even though they both might work on metal. Thus I work under the presumption that in the metalworking tools there are tools for working on metal armor, horseshoes, etc. It has loopholes, but then the RAW way does also. I don't think the craft systems is complex, more that it is poorly defined and therefore hard to.impossible to fully understand (which to me brings to mind that I am somehow "missing" something, even if that something really just isn't there). Using the tools desgined for the job at hand makes perfect sense to me. I don't see it adding any loopholes. Having to buy superfluous tools is a situation that shouldn't have existed in the first place.
risner 06-13-06, 01:58 PM	Ok you are talking to a real newbe player here. Ok I want to make arrows, it says to take the 1gp and turen it into sp. Than use 1/3 of cost. Question is: 3 sp to make 20 arrows? Question 2, could i make it from basic things i find in the woods and skip the cost (wood, feathers and fire to harden the tips). 10 silver for 20 arrows, so 10/3 = 3 silver 3 copper to make 20 arrows It is a balance issue, so even if you hunt to get the parts the 3 silver 3 copper would need to be "spent". That money would be paid to a shop for arrow parts. Otherwise your craft ability grants you free arrows for life, which most would consider unbalancing.
zzap1990 06-13-06, 04:12 PM	lets all be a happy adventure party and agree that the current rules are hard so lets put all archery related things to make in one skill and give making arrows one easy check. on the order of when someone commentedDepends on the strictness of your game, but I think if you just completely manufacture arrows yourself in the wilds, then your arrows would be considered primitive or stoneage weapons and do less damage. this would not be true if you have arrow heads. with out it would be primative and would justify less damage but be easier to make and thus quicker and a magic bow could over come the less damage factor. also the type of wood you use would determine the damage. so with increased diffaculty you could find better wood and do better damage or you could have or instead of the wood getting better have the tip be barbed or sharper.
lukelightning 06-13-06, 04:19 PM	In my experience, the best way to get arrows and arrow heads is to walk into the Enchanted Forest of Quilethelyn and shout "Wood elves are a bunch of idiotic pansies and their king is a buffoon who smells of goblins mating with sheepdogs!" You'll quickly have all the arrows you need.