Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zerachial 06-02-07, 11:15 AM	I was just looking at the construction of Ioun Stones and noticed something that I disagree with. Why do you need to be Caster Level 12th to make all the Ioun stones? You can make items that are valued at 12,000gp at CL 6th, but you can't make a 4,000gp Ioun stone until you're 12th level? That doesn't make sense. Does anyone have a better way of determining CL requirements for making items? And incidentally, why do you need to be CL 10 to make Flaming or Acidic weapons but only CL 8 to make Shock or Frost weapons? For that matter, why can you enhance a weapon to +3 at 9th level, but you can't make a +1 Flaming sword until 10th? How on earth do they figure these things out?
Merestil Haye 06-02-07, 11:46 AM	I was just looking at the construction of Ioun Stones and noticed something that I disagree with. Why do you need to be Caster Level 12th to make all the Ioun stones? You can make items that are valued at 12,000gp at CL 6th, but you can't make a 4,000gp Ioun stone until you're 12th level? That doesn't make sense. And incidentally, why do you need to be CL 10 to make Flaming or Acidic weapons but only CL 8 to make Shock or Frost weapons? For that matter, why can you enhance a weapon to +3 at 9th level, but you can't make a +1 Flaming sword until 10th? How on earth do they figure these things out?You don't need to be CL10 to make a flaming weapon. The item's listed caster level has nothing whatsoever to do with making the item. I assume that the CL12 prerequisite for the Ioun Stone is to give the crafter the chance to get hold of the magical knowledge necessary to let them work as written. Justification will vary from campaign to campaign. Does anyone have a better way of determining CL requirements for making items?Follow the rules. The minimum CL to make the item is the highest of the CL needed to cast the highest level spell among the prerequisites, the character level necessary to meet any skill prerequisites, or the caster level stated in the prerequisites. For Flaming that means the CL can be as low as 3 (if a Druid made the blade).
zerachial 06-02-07, 12:09 PM	You don't need to be CL10 to make a flaming weapon. The item's listed caster level has nothing whatsoever to do with making the item. Huh. I missed that completely. Thanx for pointing that out. I'm an ass :D I should really try reading all the rules before I open my big mouth and post shouldn't I? Oh well. See me - suitably humbled. I assume that the CL12 prerequisite for the Ioun Stone is to give the crafter the chance to get hold of the magical knowledge necessary to let them work as written. Justification will vary from campaign to campaign. Still not sure I like that. But I see now that I read all the prerequisites again that it makes a certain sense that creating an item that doesn't take up a magic item space would be much harder to do. Thanx for helping out an apparent n00b Merestil.
SALDAR 06-03-07, 04:52 AM	Follow the rules. The minimum CL to make the item is the highest of the CL needed to cast the highest level spell among the prerequisites, the character level necessary to meet any skill prerequisites, or the caster level stated in the prerequisites. For Flaming that means the CL can be as low as 3 (if a Druid made the blade). The feat needed to craft the magic item is also a prerequisite. From the SRD under Magic Item Descriptions: Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. So the Flaming weapon would be a minimum of caster level 5 since Craft Magic Arms and Armor has a prerequisite of caster level 5th.
cwslyclgh 06-03-07, 05:04 AM	The feat needed to craft the magic item is also a prerequisite. So the Flaming weapon would be a minimum of caster level 5 since Craft Magic Arms and Armor has a prerequisite of caster level 5th.not necessarily, for example a Wizard 5/Druid 3 could take the feat, and using a Druid spell create a flaming weapon, thus the caster level would be 3. Besides I am not sure your assertion is correct anyway, for example a character needs to have a caster level of 12 to take the forge ring feat, yet there are rings in the DMG with much lower caster levels then that listed (ring of feather falling has a CL of 1st listed, infact a quick perusal shows that there are more rings with a caster level below 9 listed then there are rings with a caster level of 9 or above).
Merestil Haye 06-03-07, 05:06 AM	The feat needed to craft the magic item is also a prerequisite.But it is not a prerequisite that you need to include in the calculation of minimum CL. The example I cited above is a good example of one argument why. The character cannot make a ring of Invisibility, according to you. He requires CL12, and he cannot make the ring at CL12 because in the class which gives him the ability to cast Invisibility, he is CL3, and he cannot set the CL of the ring above his own CL. But clearly, the character can make the Ring. He meets all the prerequisites. Now look at the pricing of wands. By your argument, every single wand must have a CL of 5. Similarly potions must have a minimum CL of 3. They don't, do they? These aren't isolated errors - it's the system. You do not - in any magic item - count the feat when calculating the minimum CL of the item.
SALDAR 06-03-07, 06:44 AM	Merestil Haye and cwslyclgh, the rules disagree with you. From the SRD under MAGIC ITEM DESCRIPTIONS: Caster Level: The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form “CL x,” where “CL” is an abbreviation for caster level and “x” is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator’s caster level must be as high as the item’s caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator’s level). The bolded lines are replaced by the DMG errata: Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. You must meet all of the listed prerequisites and the prerequisites do include the item creation feats as stated in the same section of the SRD as follows: Prerequisites: Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level. Unless my books and the SRD are completely different from your books the item creation feat needed to make the item is given "immediately following the item's caster level" and before any "spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind". Since the Flaming weapon has Craft Magic Arms and Armor listed as a prerequisite it would have a minimum caster level of 5 according to the rules I have quoted.
zerachial 06-03-07, 12:32 PM	Actually, this discussion leads to another question I had about crafting. Why have they set the prerequisite of the Forge Ring feat as CL 12? When you can get the feat Craft Wondrous Item at CL3? This seems a little odd as you can now make a wondrous item, with the same abilities as a ring (provided you meet the spell prerequisites, and I appreiciate that it will have to fill a different body slot) at much lower levels than you can make rings. Wouldn't it have made more sense to make Craft Wondrous Item the CL 12 feat? Actually, this probably stems from my ire that Wondrous Items seem to have very few limits on them. Why do I need to take Craft Wand (for example) when I can make a wondrous item that has 50 charges, is spell trigger activation and replicates the effects of a spell? Why would I want any of the craft feats (with the exception of Craft Staff which doesn't seem [to me] to have an ability that can be replicated by a wondrous item)? Don't get me wrong. I appreciate that the spirit of the rules is being manipulated if I create a wondrous item that is, in essence, a wand. And I am very reticent to allow my players to try to get round the requirements for making a wand by taking the feat. But, unless I'm misreding or misinterpreting the rules, it is possible. What do you all think? Have I misread the rules? Please fon't lambast me for usurping the spirit of the rules, I already appreciate that.
cwslyclgh 06-03-07, 02:04 PM	Since the Flaming weapon has Craft Magic Arms and Armor listed as a prerequisite it would have a minimum caster level of 5 according to the rules I have quoted. having the feat is a prerequisite, but as I pointed out there are ways around it even if you read it the way that you are (which is clearly wrong given the examples in the DMG, either that or the entire magic items section of the DMG needs errata to change the caster levels of many of the magic items, errata which it doesn't have, so appearently either WotC is blind and stupid or they do not feel it is in error, I find the latter more likely).... but I digress, even if you read it the way that you are reading it, my wizard/druid example above meets the feat requirement and creates the weapon with a lower caster level. A character with the feat can also create an item with the help of a character with out the feat, so a person with forge ring who doesn't know feather fall can have somebody else cast the spell, if that other caster is 1st level, then the caster level of ring is also 1st. there is even text in the magic items section that dissagrees with your point... Caster Level for Weapons: ... For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus...tell me, what is 3 x 1? is it less then 5? hmmm.....
SALDAR 06-03-07, 05:04 PM	tell me, what is 3 x 1? is it less then 5? hmmm..... I know this ! It's 3! Unfortunately a 3rd level whatever cannot create a +1 sword. Why? Because he is not high enough level to have the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat. You may have the necessary level required to make a +1 sword but you do not have the necessary level to take the feat needed to create such a weapon. No feat, no sword. Even with multiple people working on the item the caster level is still the minimum needed to meet the prerequisites as stated in the DMG.
cwslyclgh 06-03-07, 05:20 PM	So all of the places in the DMG where an item is listed with a caster level below the level required to take the feat (along with places like that I quoted located in the armor and weapons section, the tables for magic potion and wand creation in the item creation section, the item lists for potions and wands which include spells at a lower caster level, etc. etc.) are wrong then, and WotC is just too blind and stupid to notice it and release the corrected errata then... is that your basic assertion? edit: also, just because you have to have a certian caster level to qualify a feat, doesn't mean that you have to cast spells at that caster level or higher, a character can always cast spells at a lower caster level then the one they possess. from the PHB and SRD: You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question...
SALDAR 06-04-07, 07:28 PM	So all of the places in the DMG where an item is listed with a caster level below the level required to take the feat (along with places like that I quoted located in the armor and weapons section, the tables for magic potion and wand creation in the item creation section, the item lists for potions and wands which include spells at a lower caster level, etc. etc.) are wrong then, and WotC is just too blind and stupid to notice it and release the corrected errata then... is that your basic assertion? According to the DMG and the errata, yes. With the exception of potions, wands, and scrolls, which are seperated out from the other magic items concerning minimum caster level. edit: also, just because you have to have a certian caster level to qualify a feat, doesn't mean that you have to cast spells at that caster level or higher, a character can always cast spells at a lower caster level then the one they possess. What level you can cast a spell at has nothing to do with meeting the level requirements for the feat prerequisites for creating a magic item. Even if you can cast a spell as a 3rd level caster you would still need to be 5th level for the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, which is the minimum caster level required by the Flaming special weapon ability prerequisites.