Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ryeookin 08-09-06, 03:45 PM	If you have an effective caster lvl of say 9, does that mean you can craft (if you have the appropriate feats of course) a CL9 prerequisite item? umm.. if not then can someone explain the difference between ECL and CL?
Bulletproof_Condom 08-09-06, 04:10 PM	"Effective caster level" is not a term ever used in D&D. ECL is short for "effective character level." Are you talking about characters with level adjustment or characters with feats/abilities/items that grant caster level bonuses?
ryeookin 08-09-06, 04:22 PM	"Effective caster level" is not a term ever used in D&D. ECL is short for "effective character level." Are you talking about characters with level adjustment or characters with feats/abilities/items that grant caster level bonuses? Not ever used huh? Might wanna look up the prestige class "Green star adept" Green Star Adept (http://http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Prestige.pdf) Then search the pdf for "Green star adept" One of the abilities states: Improved Caster Level – Although you only gain additional Arcane spells every other level, add your Class level to your Arcane Caster level for your effective caster level. :P So whats it mean?
Nom 08-09-06, 07:31 PM	Let's play semantics for a moment. The term is not "effective caster level", but rather 'effective "caster level"'. The rule in question is not defining a new classification of caster level, but rather talking about the caster level that you effectively have. For all purposes (items, spells, CL checks), you use your current caster level, including any situational bonuses.
Auldar 08-09-06, 07:33 PM	If you have an effective caster lvl of say 9, does that mean you can craft (if you have the appropriate feats of course) a CL9 prerequisite item? umm.. if not then can someone explain the difference between ECL and CL? CL defines the caster level of the item only. ie for the purposes of duration, saves etc. CL is no longer the required caster level of the creator. The creator simply needs to have a high enough caster level to meet any spell requirements, not to meet the CL of the item. However, there are some enhancements/items that require "caster level 9" etc in the requirements section. In that case, yes any PrC that raises your effective caster level such that your caster level >= 9, you can craft said item if you meet all the other prerequisites.
ryeookin 08-09-06, 10:42 PM	CL defines the caster level of the item only. ie for the purposes of duration, saves etc. CL is no longer the required caster level of the creator. The creator simply needs to have a high enough caster level to meet any spell requirements, not to meet the CL of the item. However, there are some enhancements/items that require "caster level 9" etc in the requirements section. In that case, yes any PrC that raises your effective caster level such that your caster level >= 9, you can craft said item if you meet all the other prerequisites. Hmm.. so your saying for example that a "CL9" item I see listed in the dmg, the creator doesn't need to be "caster level 9>=? However in the dmg I read: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any at any number high enough to cast the spell... .. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level ( and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level) Looks like if you need a CL5 item you need to have you "caster level" >=5 to make it to me. Am I missing something? With this new revelation, I see that my effective "caster level" is what determines if I can make an magic item or not, not how many levels I have in arcane classes per say. So if I have a higher CL it doesn't grant me additional spells but the spells I do have, their durations, d-damage increases.. also magic items CL prereq's can be met this way it appears. :D
Nom 08-10-06, 12:52 AM	See DMG pg 215 and errata. The "CL" listed in the magic item stats is a "typical" caster level. Most of the time its appropriate, but in a few notable cases it is either way too high or too low to be legal. The actual CL requirement for crafting an item is that the item must have a caster level high enough to meet the minimum caster level of any spells or other prerequisites. A few items (enhancement bonuses to swords & armour, bracers of armour, ...) have an explicit CL requirement. For other items, the CL is the minumum caster level of any spells used in creation.* Wands, scrolls, and potions use a modified version of this: the CL is the CL of the single spell placed in the item. An interesting feature is that caster level is caster level, regardless of class. Using cooperative creation, a cleric could provide the caster level (and XP) for an item that required wizard-only spells. * Note 1: it's not clear from the rules whether the item creation feat CL pre-req is included. There are items in the DMG that suggest it is not, but then these examples are already suspect by because of other items whose "typical CL" is impossible. * Note 2: The FAQ suggests that there is no CL requirement for spells, but this conflicts with DMG pg 215, pg 285 and the Rules of the Game article on item minimum CL. It also leads one to wonder why items in the DMG have such high caster levels if all you need is CL 1.
Merestil Haye 08-10-06, 05:49 AM	However in the dmg I read: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any at any number high enough to cast the spell... .. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level ( and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level)The DMG has errata. This means that the text has been fomally changed to read differently. From the SRD I use (which incorporates errata as they come out, generally).For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.That the listed CL is not a prerequisite sould be obvious (but probably is so only in hindsight) from the fact that the line reads CL : x. Prereqs : A, B, C.and notPrereqs : A, B, C, CL x So if I have a higher CL it doesn't grant me additional spells but the spells I do have, their durations, d-damage increases.. also magic items CL prereq's can be met this way it appears. :DThat's the way I read it as well, yes.
ryeookin 08-10-06, 12:31 PM	The DMG has errata. This means that the text has been fomally changed to read differently. From the SRD I use (which incorporates errata as they come out, generally).That the listed CL is not a prerequisite sould be obvious (but probably is so only in hindsight) from the fact that the line reads CL : x. Prereqs : A, B, C.and notPrereqs : A, B, C, CL x Bare with me please.. trying to put this all together. So.. the CL is just a guideline letting us know what level one can usually attain those spells? If so, for example if say a warlock wanted to make gloves of dex +6 (which the book says is CL8) but had the feat to make wonderous items as well as having a wand of "cats grace" with sufficient charges.. could he/she make the gloves?
Nom 08-10-06, 12:54 PM	You've missed the important piece of information: what's the warlock's CL? Presumably, the cat's grace you have in the wand is a wiz or cleric version, which has a minimum CL of 3. Thus, the minimum CL of an item requiring cat's grace is 3. "The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given."
ryeookin 08-10-06, 03:16 PM	"The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given." Ah HA! Now It clicked! Thanks. :D
Auldar 08-10-06, 08:17 PM	Bare with me please.. trying to put this all together. So.. the CL is just a guideline letting us know what level one can usually attain those spells? If so, for example if say a warlock wanted to make gloves of dex +6 (which the book says is CL8) but had the feat to make wonderous items as well as having a wand of "cats grace" with sufficient charges.. could he/she make the gloves? The items CL also affects any variable abilities the item grants. For example with "Cat's Grace", the duration would increase with a higher CL. A wand of fireball would have more d6 rolls with a higher CL etc. It also affects the DC for resist checks made vs the items spells, and the saves the item must make vs dispelling or other attacks against it etc.