Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Save-vs-DM 10-26-05, 05:47 AM	It has occurred to me on numerous occasions that the crafting times for mundane masterwork items are incredibly obscene for an adventuring hero. The amount of time it takes you to craft your own item simply takes too long at the lower levels, when the reduced price would be of the greatest benefit. I’ve done some tallying of how long it takes to make an item with a certain bonus to your craft check. Assuming that a craftsman has a bonus listed below and takes 10 on his craft check, he can make items at the progress listed on this table. Craft Bonus Daily Progress (DC 20) Daily Progress(DC 30) Total Crafting Time (100gp) +10 4 gp failure 25 days / failure +15 7 gp failure 15 days / failure +20 8 gp 12 gp 13 days / 9 days +25 9 gp 13.5 gp 12 days / 8 days +30 10 gp 15 gp 10 days / 7 days +35 11 gp 16.5 gp 10 days / 7 days +40 12 gp 18 gp 9 days / 6 days +45 13 gp 19.5 gp 8 days / 6 days +50 14 gp 21 gp 8 days / 5 days Using the above table, we can extrapolate the average time it takes to make the following items. The item price itself is not included, as generally the price is negligible for weapons. Once you have a bonus of +20 or higher, you can use the accelerated crafting rules (adding 10 to the DC) to speed things up a bit. Generally crafting most weapons only adds 3-4 days of time, at the most, while as son as you have a +30 bonus you can craft a longsword in one day. Weapon Price Breakdown. Craft Bonus Masterwork Weapon Adamantine Weapon Mithral Weapon +10 75 days 750 days 125 days per pound +15 45 days 450 days 75 days per pound +20 27 days 270 days 45 days per pound +25 24 days 240 days 40 days per pound +30 21 days 210 days 35 days per pound +35 21 days 210 days 35 days per pound +40 18 days 180 days 30 days per pound +45 18 days 180 days 30 days per pound +50 15 days 150 days 25 days per pound Mundane Armor Costs (Note: I’ve not included any armor less then 100 gold, as the time is negligible. Note that all these tables assume a flat DC of 20 or 30 – actually crafting times are actually longer for everything if you don’t bump up the dc). Craft Bonus Banded Mail Breastplate Chain Shirt Full Plate Half-Plate Splint Mail +10 63 days 50 days 25 days 375 days 150 days 50 days +15 43 days 30 days 15 days 225 days 90 days 30 days +20 23 days 18 days 9 days 95 days 54 days 18 days +25 20 days 16 days 8 days 84 days 48 days 16 days +30 18 days 14 days 7 days 74 days 42 days 14 days +35 18 days 14 days 7 days 74 days 42 days 14 days +40 15 days 12 days 6 days 63 days 36 days 12 days +45 15 days 12 days 6 days 63 days 36 days 12 days +50 13 days 10 days 5 days 53 days 30 days 10 days Superior Armor Costs Craft Bonus Masterwork Weapon Adamantine Armor (L/M/H) Mithral Armor (L/M/H) +10 38 days 1250 days / 2500 days / 3750 days 250 days / 1000 days / 2250 days +15 23 days 750 days / 1500 days / 2250 days 150 days / 600 days / 1350 days +20 14 days 450 days / 900 days / 1350 days 90 days / 360 days / 810 days +25 12 days 400 days / 800 days / 1200 days 80 days / 320 days / 720 days +30 11 days 350 days / 700 days / 1050 days 70 days / 280 days / 630 days +35 11 days 350 days / 700 days / 1050 days 70 days / 280 days / 630 days +40 9 days 300 days / 600 days / 900 days 60 days / 240 days / 540 days +45 9 days 300 days / 600 days / 900 days 60 days / 240 days / 540 days +50 8 days 250 days / 500 days / 750 days 50 days / 200 days / 450 days So, what does this get us, besides some handy reference tables? A crafter with Craft (Armorsmithing) +50 will take 824 days to make one suit of adamantine full plate – that’s over 2 years! In general, crafting items made of either adamantine or mithral takes a ludicrous amount of time to be worth it. At low levels crafting your own full plate can take over a year of dedicated work for 8 hours a day, seven days a week. Even with a +50 bonus to your craft check, full plate itself takes 53 days to produce. In addition, the masterwork part of full plate takes 1/10th the time that the full plate itself takes. So, what can be done to speed up crafting short of using Fabricate or the crafting points rules out of unearthed arcana (as those just require you to take even more feats). I mean, it takes so much longer to make the longsword than it does to craft it. I’d also like to know where all these suits of full plate are coming from, as most craftsmen are going to have a bonus around +10 to +15, meaning they take the better part of a year to make just one suit of full plate. So, any ideas on how to make times realistic while making crafting times more suitable to an adventuring lifestyle? Cheers, Save vs DM
jasper 10-26-05, 08:24 AM	dm. That completes the adventure of terrible twins and talking crows. Any one what to do anything in town special? Player 1. I want to create an uber Adamantine switchblade blah blah Dm. Any one else? Any one do mind waiting? crickets crickets. Dm. 2 years have passed player 1 is show the group his new switchblade when you here a rumor about the foul foursome and speaking snakes. Does anyone one to take the plot hook? **** Most of the craft stuff can happen off board. What does matter if the group does not get an adventuring gig in the meanwhile? Mark the new age on the sheets and go.
simon_tage 10-26-05, 08:35 AM	Personally, if the adventurer can't spend the time crafting something then he should commission it. Only legendary smiths should be able to produce masterwork items in relatively short times. The history channel ran a special on japanese sword making and it took the better part of a year to make a sword from what I remember. I can understand the problem but really an adventurer that hasn't dedicated himself to Craft really shouldn't be able to make an item quickly. It would be a good adventure hook to search for the elusive dwarven master smith and get him to make a suit of adamantine full plate for you.
crossbow 10-26-05, 11:46 AM	So, let me get this straight, you think that long crafting times for masterwork items are a problem? That adventurers don’t seem to have enough time to make masterwork items and still get in a decent adventuring schedule? Not to be too snarky about things but it’s supposed to be that way. These are Masterwork Items we are talking about after all, the best that people are supposed to be able to produce without magic. Masterwork items aren’t supposed to be something you can come home and whip out on a weekend, they are supposed to take a serious investment of time, energy and skill. That’s why there are craftsmen out there and not just a world full of adventurers that whip things out on the weekend. Adventurers don’t generally have that kind of time, even if they have the skill and materials. The time tables don’t appear in any way shape or form to be broken from the way I look at things. Making anything from scratch takes a lot longer than most people realize and making a masterwork takes considerably longer than that. Take a simple knife for instance. Assuming you have all the materials already on hand, a big assumption in a medieval world, you can maybe forge out a blade in a day. You spend another day (at least) grinding it down. Another day putting the handle together and another day polishing, finishing and sharpening. So you are talking about four days or so for a simple, non-masterwork knife. Now, if you want a masterwork knife with a Damascus blade, perfectly balanced with cast bronze fittings and an ivory handle, you are looking at a lot more time. Easily several weeks of work on one piece. And yet, by your chart, it takes only 25 days to produce a 100 gp masterwork with a craft of +10. I know I’d be happy if it only took me 25 days to produce a masterwork. In summary, if you are really worried about your players procuring masterwork items, either have them buy them or give them more time off between adventures. I typically give the characters in my campaigns the two or three months in the middle of winter off, as no one, bad guys included, really wants to go tromping around in the snow and cold if they can avoid it. It gives them time to get some business, like crafting and research, done and doesn’t impact the story at all. crossbow
tarkin 10-26-05, 12:26 PM	Players should not be crafting such things (without fabricate or similar magic). They should be buying them from either people using fabricate or spending years to make it. That is why the game is called dungeons and dragons, not crafting and selling.
Tony Vargas 10-26-05, 01:04 PM	Yeah, the crafting times do get very long for very expensive items. As tarkin points out, if you could make good money by not adventuring, the game could get pretty boring. Money is not only a realistic motivation, in D&D, it's power. The craft and proffession rules are designed so that it's not tempting to pass on an adventure to ply those skills for profit, and so that the DM can include long downtime without giving crafting characters an imbalancing infusion of cash. OTOH, the concept of a wizard who makes items /from scratch/, or a hero who forges his own magic sword, or whatever, are perfectly reasonable, and, in campaigns with occassionally large amounts of downtime, perfectly viable. Not every concept works for every campaign, though. A campaign can see characters go from first to Epic levels in a series of four 'average' 4-encounter days per level, with no downtime, in a matter of a few months, or it could take years to gain a few levels, if challenging adventures come along only occassionally. If you want quicker crafting, there are some ideas on another thread: Crafting Mithral Armor (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=524517)
Rojar 10-26-05, 02:15 PM	I agree with Tarkin. Fabricate combined with a good craft skill score is the best way to go. Granted, now you're talking a level 9 wizard or so, or a mid-to-high level Craftsman in a large city who has access to say, a magic forge that is enchanted with Fabricate. I would have to say that the ordinary country-bumpkin blacksmith in DND should not be whipping out adamantine *anything* unless he or she is very special indeed. Perhaps the life-long project of an aspiring armorsmith from a small town would be a suit of adamantine armor, or the perfect adamantine blade... but as you pointed out, it would take YEARS to make. However, I DO think that the craft times of more mundane items can be a bit long. If characters aren't supposed to be able to make adventuring gear for themselves, why even have the craft skill available to them? Certainly something to shorten the time a little might be in order, depending on your campaign style. Rojar
DarknessEternal 10-26-05, 03:02 PM	The crafting times aren't even realistic. According to D&D, it'd take a 7th level Expert (with Skill Focus, masterwork artisan's tools, fancy smithy, and 2 apprentices) 16 weeks to craft normal, mundane plate. That's a +23 Craft bonus. In real life, it took about a week to ten days. If you want anything resembling feasible crafting times, I suggest the Craft Points system presented in Unearthed Arcana (hypertext d20 SRD has it), along with some house rules. Otherwise, you can't craft in D&D.
wonlee76 10-26-05, 03:19 PM	I think the long crafting times also is a reflection on an NPC's ability to make money. I think the craft rules say 1/3 of the costs is for base materials and presuming successes every week making steady progress on the item, you will eventually realize a 2/3 profit for all your hard work. The longer it takes to craft the item, the higher the profit. In general, I would imagine that the craftsman is making a steady stream of income by doing some simple easy to do tasks and working on a bigger project on the side.
00_Whupass 10-26-05, 05:07 PM	Craft is also useful for those goods that you cannot or do not want to purchase openly, I imagine if you walked in to a city with purse full of gold and asked the town guardsman for directions to the nearest trapwright and poisonmaker you might get some funny looks. But I agree with what has been said about the times required to craft masterwork items being appropriate for several reasons. They make crafting Items time prohibitive, which is a good thing since d&d is a heroic game of adventure, rather than "Smithy Tycoon". Also in my campaigns I allow craft to work like profession for the purpose of making money, your character is a little low on cash and has ranks in Craft (Armor smithing) He can get hired on as a day laborer for the local smith, making money based on the outcome of his craft check, just like profession.
Michael Silverbane 10-26-05, 05:29 PM	If you want to speed up crafting times in your game, then change (or convince your DM to change) progress by the week to gold pieces and progress by the day to silver pieces. That will speed things up considerably. Another option is to add the cost of the raw materials into the equation for determining whether or not you've finished crafting your item. Instead of Craft DC * Check = amount per week or day... Craft DC * Check + Raw Materials = amount per week or day... That'll reduce your time by one-third... Later silver
Save-vs-DM 10-26-05, 05:56 PM	Good replies, everyone. Thanks for all the input. I think you're all more or less right. My problem is, in pretty much any game I get the chance to play in, we have at most 2-3 days between adventures. I'm playing an artificer who invested a great deal of skill points and feats into crafting. I'd like to actually be able to craft something. Top this off with the fact that even at level 3 a masterwork weapon is a huge expenditure on our part (we're pretty darn poor). I'd just like to be able to craft my own mundane, masterwork items for enchanting weapons without the party wanting to kill me because they're without their only healer for three months of game time. Cheers, Save vs DM
Tony Vargas 10-26-05, 06:11 PM	My problem is, in pretty much any game I get the chance to play in, we have at most 2-3 days between adventures. I'm playing an artificer who invested a great deal of skill points and feats into crafting. I'd like to actually be able to craft something. Top this off with the fact that even at level 3 a masterwork weapon is a huge expenditure on our part (we're pretty darn poor). Not every class or every concept works equally well in every campaign. You might want to talk with your DM. Point out that it's maybe pushing the old 'willing suspension of disbelief' envelope a bit to have so many hair-raising adventures in rapid succession - most people live thier whole lives without experiencing the amount of fear, bloodshed, and profit that the typical PC sees before hitting 2nd level. Longer periods of downtime don't need to be played through in detail, anyway, so they cost little in terms of DM effort, and add a lot to the verisimilitude of the campaign. Or, talk to the DM before the campaign, and find out if his style includes downtime or if it's likely to be a 'low wealth' campaign. Also try to feel out if party treasure is going to be heavily in cash, or if the DM likes handing out mostly items. That sort of thing.
Kyle_the_DM 10-26-05, 11:21 PM	I agree with the thought that characters should be adventuring instead of crafting things but think about this aspect of special materials being used: Mithral - Mithral takes a long time to forge but who uses it the most? Elves. Elves also live as long as 750 years according to the PHB. So if you have 750 years to live you're more likely to use it. Elven society is about perfecting a art or craft to the point of maximum perfection. Elves also think in a longer, slower mindset because of their long lives. Adamantine - This metal takes even longer to forge. Again look at who uses it: Dwarves. Dwarves live up to 450 years. Again, why not spend a couple years when you have so many? What I'm getting at is basically this: Just because we think an amount of time is long, doesn't mean a creature of a race that lives more than four or seven times as long as a human will find the crafting time to be too long. Long lived races have a different outlook on time than humans would. A player using a race such as Elf or Dwarf shouldn't think it too long to craft. Especially since these races are paragons of craftmanship. Crafting great works of "art" is what these races live for. Heck, in a race such as these, using Fabricate to forge a great suit of armor should seem like a devaluing of the craft. :twocents:
Save-vs-DM 10-27-05, 01:17 AM	Again, great points. I agree with everyone, honestly. Part of it was just me going "wow...that's a long time to make one thing." I do talk with the DM and we have good communcation (helps when you live two floors apart in the same condo) and we even take turns DMing. Our big problem is that we're racing against about 3 criminal organizations to find one item before they do. He never forces to do anything, but stuff always ends up happening when I'm crafting that forces us to move on. Most of the fun of playing an artificer is making your own items, but we're always on the go so much that the only thing I get to make are healing potions to keep us alive - not much fun. *shrug* I know the solutions, I guess at this point I'm really just whining about not getting to do what I feel is the most fun in DnD. Cheers, Save vs DM
Kendrick 10-27-05, 01:34 AM	Unfortunately, your character class is one that depends on downtime to be fully functional. You can: 1. Ask your DM to allow you to make a new character since it turns out that yours is gimped in his campaign. 2. Tough it out and hope it gets better. 3. Refuse to play by the pace the DM is trying to set - that is, force the downtime and see if the DM is actually willing to screw the party over because of it. If your DM refuses both to allow you to change your character and to change the pace of play, either immediately or after the current adventure, you just might have problems other than the crafting rules (i. e. control freak DM). Sounds like you can probably work it out though, if you two are friendly.
celloshane 10-27-05, 04:02 AM	The crafting times aren't even realistic. According to D&D, it'd take a 7th level Expert (with Skill Focus, masterwork artisan's tools, fancy smithy, and 2 apprentices) 16 weeks to craft normal, mundane plate. That's a +23 Craft bonus. In real life, it took about a week to ten days. What's your source on that? All the information I've read indicates that a suit of Full Plate would take months to create from scratch.
Rulebook 10-27-05, 07:10 AM	maybe for a show piece of full plate, that wasnt actually designed for anybody, ESPECIALLY not for use in combat, might take a week. all you're doing at that point is just hammering out fullplate shaped pieces quickly. real fullplate would take quite a while (im gonna guess at LEAST 3 weeks, if you're-fast-) because you have to fine tune it to the wearers shape, which can take a while, because poorly fitting armor is often worse than no armor at all.
jasper 10-27-05, 09:19 AM	Guys you all are forgeting in real life a TEAM of workers worked on these items. From the charcoal boy, to bellows boy, to journey men etc. Also I accept D&D is game and even some it mudane average day stuff has no connection with real life just because it is game.
Wyrd Bearer 10-27-05, 09:43 AM	Players should not be crafting such things (without fabricate or similar magic). They should be buying them from either people using fabricate or spending years to make it. That is why the game is called dungeons and dragons, not crafting and selling.Yes tarkin, every character I play can cast fabricate or if they cannot, they they can ALWAYS find the exact person willing to sell a starmetal whatever specifically when and where I want it.... :nonono: I hear you, Save-vs-DM, the character that I just made to introduce to my own campaign just spent 100 weeks crafting a SHORTSWORD made from starmetal. And this was with me casting magecraft every day for almost 2 years to add +5 to my rolls. Problem with this character is that he crafts almost everything he uses himself as his concept is that he's self-reliant. So apparently, for the better part of at least 3 years (because I'm not done yet) he's been crafting his own weapons and alchemical stuff before showing up to become the mentor to the party. Now of course, as the DM, I can always just say that he crafted his items just fine, but the only way to figure out the price, especially when failure is likely, is to roll for it, which takes time as well. Yes, the game isn't called Economics and Trade, yes adventuring is supposed to be the focus but the people who aren't supermages get royally jobbed when they want to be self-reliant.
Oneiros 10-27-05, 01:37 PM	If your DM refuses both to allow you to change your character and to change the pace of play, either immediately or after the current adventure, you just might have problems other than the crafting rules (i. e. control freak DM). Sounds like you can probably work it out though, if you two are friendly.Well, I personally think the player who expects a DM to adjust an adventure's pace, even between "episodes", so they can take a couple years crafting armor is probably the control freak, not the DM. Maybe that's just me :D Magic items, on the other hand, require the investment of a feat, and don't take nearly as long, so expecting some time once in a while to get to use your Craft feat is perfectly reasonable. Those creation times are expected as a normal part of play by the designers, I'd say. That said... I agree that the current craft rules are about as realistic as the d20 system could make them, but are also unplayable for anyone that really wants to invest the points in the Craft skills and still be an adventurer. (Though there is the weirdness of tying craft time to price: a plain ring of gold takes a lot longer to make than a plain ring of steel, despite the fact that gold is easier to work with.) Yeah, sure, characters can just have stuff commissioned, found as treasure, or hope to find a masterwork item for sale. But there's just something really appealing about having a magic weapon enchanted that you made. In a campaign I'm playing in, I convinced the DM to let my character and another who has Craft as a skill to use the UA Craft Points variant. It's an excellent hand-wave mechanic (the assumption being the PC has been working on the item all along, not that it "magically appears" overnight) that let me create my masterwork dwarven Urgosh shaped like a dragon's head without having to take months and months to do it. (Masterwork Exotic Double weapon - yeesh!) The other character (also a dwarf) was able to make some mithril chainmail for himself, without having to take a whole year off from adventuring. The DM did rule we can only spend the points at times in the campaign when the characters have at least some downtime and access to crafting tools (no whipping up a masterwork longsword in the middle of the dungeon), and max one item per day of downtime, which is fine by me. In fact, right now the axe-head of my urgrosh was destroyed while fighting a stone statue, and I have to wait 'til we get back to civilization to replace it :( At the same time, Craft Points are a limited resource - the PCs aren't going to setup shop and make a living by using them (maybe when they retire.) They do, however, usually have enough to make masterwork items for the rest of the party, which gives characters something to do during downtimes and contribute to the party. Another cool feature is that they can be used in conjunction with the normal crafting rules. If I have a month of downtime, I can dedicate that to working on an item, then "finish up" the remaining time with craft points (so I use fewer points that way.) NPCs would probably use the normal rules, but if characters want something in a hurry, they'll probably have to pay extra if the NPC has to "spend" Craft Points to do it. "Well, I have a very fine sword which is almost done, but I was working on that for Baron Foo. But perhaps I could be convinced to tell him it will take longer than expected..."
Vahenir 10-27-05, 05:59 PM	Yeah... a plate harness takes a lot longer than a week to make. Try like.. 6 months to 2 years, depending on quality and how much work besides the craftsman is doing. Don't believe me? Contact Christian Fletcher or any other craftsman who makes period-correct plate armour and ask him how long it takes to make a complete suit of plate from scratch. Then add on some extra weeks to compensate for the fact that modern craftsmen have all the necessary materials right on hand, and advanced techniques and tools. And god forbid a difficult-to-make tool breaks during the process. Now the smith has to either buy a new one (probably taking at least a few weeks for the donkey-led caravans to bring it) or make one (again, few weeks) whereas a modern smith can simply order the tool on next-day shipping. And even a modern craftsman requires MONTHS of work to create a suit of plate.
Kendrick 10-27-05, 06:19 PM	Well, I personally think the player who expects a DM to adjust an adventure's pace, even between "episodes", so they can take a couple years crafting armor is probably the control freak, not the DM. Maybe that's just me :D I think it's reasonable for the DM to allow some down-time if a character goes to the trouble of investing skill points and so on. It's hardly ridiculous for a player whose character invested in the skill to ask that the DM either allow them to use it, or allow them to move the points. Even if it's important for the campaign concept that the game be basically a no-down-time frantic pace deal, you've got to be a hard-ass (or a moron) to not let a player rebuild a character that is completely based around crafting (like the artificer) once they realize that you've artificially altered your campaign specifically to screw their character type over.
Thaebius 10-27-05, 08:23 PM	I think my biggest problem is this: IT ISN'T MASTERWORK. At least, not the part that takes time. At the end of the day, masterwork, the infusion of superior quality in a suit of armor, is only 150 GP. A Week. Somehow, though, mithral, which is lighter and more malleable than steel, takes 10 times the amount of time to make the exact same thing out of, just because it costs more. Adamantine, I can see, in terms of taking more time. Not THAT much more time, though. I guess, it just doesn't seem right that the crafting system takes no account of rarity when looking at crafting times. If some metal costs 12 times as much as steel, because it is considered sacred to a foreign people, and must be imported in smuggling ships, even if it is almost exactly the same as steel, it takes 12 times as long to craft. And what is with it taking an extra week to create a masterwork version of it, regardless of how long it originally took? If you can make a dagger in a day, a masterwork dagger is 8 days, but if you can make fullplate in 3 months, masterwork fullplate is 3 months and 8 days??!? Sure, it requires a serious investment of time, sure, make a choice economically not viable and players will never choose it (at the expense of the versimilatude of your world, incidentally), and most importantly YES- it solves the problem of crafting in a GAME just fine. But it feels inadequate. It makes masterwork seem Less special, if anything, since mithral takes SO much longer to make, merely because of the material in it. Not proposing any solutions, not saying "their system sucks" or anything of the sort, merely saying, with the system as it stands at the moment, it doesn't seem Wrong to be dissatisfied with the results that come out of it. Edit: Again, full plate is not half plate. Ask Christian Fletcher, or whomever, how long it would take him to make his 230th suit of uniformly fitted half-plate. Remeber, doing the same thing over and over the same way tends to reduce time somewhat, and the difference between full and half plate? Full plate is fitted. Half plate is generic. Thus the much superior protection, and Amazingly increased manufacture times.
RaspK FOG 10-27-05, 08:39 PM	House Rule on the Craft skill [So far, it has worked wonderfully...] Whenever you would make an item that costs more than 10 gp, you produce 2 × the normal amount of [copper/silver] pieces worth of work. For items that cost more than 100 gp, you produce 5 × the amount of [copper/silver] pieces worth of work you would normally produce. Finally, items that cost more than 1.000 gp are produced at 10 × the normal amount worth of [copper/silver] pieces, pushing them to [silver/gold] respectively.
Vahenir 10-28-05, 12:16 AM	Somehow, though, mithral, which is lighter and more malleable than steel, takes 10 times the amount of time to make the exact same thing out of, just because it costs more. Where in the DMG does it say that Mithral is more malleable than iron? I think the whole point of Mithral is that it is more difficult to work, but comes out as a finer finished product. The same way iron is harder to work than copper, but comes out a lot better. Mithral is to iron as iron is to copper. Edit: Again, full plate is not half plate. Plate armour, however, is plate armour. Ask Christian Fletcher, or whomever, how long it would take him to make his 230th suit of uniformly fitted half-plate. First of all, I doubt any human would be capable of making 230 suits of armour in one lifetime unless they do absolutely nothing else. 230 x 6 months = 1380 months. That's 115 years. A person is only productive for what.. at most.. 50 years (18-68) - maybe 52-55 years. Literally this fictional smith would have to sleep virtually never and would do nothing but eat, relieve himself, sleep once in awhile, and make armour. It's not feasible to make 230 suits of armour. And yes.. it has to be fitted. All plate armour has to be fitted. and the difference between full and half plate? Full plate is fitted. Half plate is generic. Wrong. What D&D calls "half-plate" is a form of transitional plate usually called plate-and-mail armour. Or 'mail-with-plates." This type of armour was short-lived and came at the interrum period before plates could be made to protect the joints and other highly-mobile portions of the body. At this time, mail reinforcements were used to cover these areas (such as the inside of the elbow.. under the arm, behind the leg, the groin, etc). Any type of medieval iron armour had to be fitted to the person that intended to wear it. Otherwise it wouldn't fit. Even a steel vambrace (of the gutter variety used in the medieval period) needs to be properly fitted. Loose armour is ineffective armour. Study the subject and it becomes very clear that there was no such thing as 'unfitted, generic armour.' Even mail had to be fitted, but it was easy to do and could be changed to fit someone else fairly easily.
Elgonn 10-28-05, 12:31 AM	I don't use this variant. I use something annoyingly more complicated that scales less. Check x DC x (Rank-3) (minimum 1) in progress speeds things up a lot. It also happens to make level/skill actually worthwhile. Another house rule is that "expensive" materials don't take any longer to make than a normal material. If I pour molten lead into a cast to make a figurine should it really take me longer to pour molten gold/platinum (yes sometimes it would be more difficult)? Current crafting rules are ridiculous. Pretty much Fabricate or nothing.
RaspK FOG 10-28-05, 09:39 AM	Elgonn, have you even noticed that you now can increase the DC by any multiple of 10 to speed up the process as well? And it's in the PHB and SRD too!
Oneiros 10-28-05, 11:26 AM	I think it's reasonable for the DM to allow some down-time if a character goes to the trouble of investing skill points and so on. It's hardly ridiculous for a player whose character invested in the skill to ask that the DM either allow them to use it, or allow them to move the points.Part of the problem is... what about the other characters (and their players) that would rather be out adventuring? They may not want to sit on their arses for all that time. Anyone who has a character that typically takes weeks/months of time off from adventuring to create items should also probably clear it with his fellow players, or have a backup character to play during those times (though the crafter is probably going to fall behind in levels rapidly, since he's not out adventuring...) Again, just pointing out that I agree with the original poster - crafting non-magical items takes a long time (whatever the exact, Real World time, which I don't think is the point of this thread) and doesnt' fit into standard campaign pacing. I don't think it was intended to - again, notice how quickly magical items can be made in comparison. Though the Evil Overlord is usually fine the heroes taking a few months off - he's got his own timetable to stick to.
Tony Vargas 10-28-05, 02:58 PM	Part of the problem is... what about the other characters (and their players) that would rather be out adventuring? They may not want to sit on their arses for all that time. From the players' point of view, months of crafting can be resolved in a few minutes. From the characters' PoV, the timing between adventures is only partly a matter of choice. PCs may seek adventure quite a bit, and find it only occassionally, or they may decide to take a break and have an adventure thrust upon them. There'll only be a conflict between the PC who wants to craft and those who want to adventure, if there is indeed an adventure in the offing. One simple way to handle it might be for some PCs to make crafting and other such checks, and those not interested in doing so, make Gather Information and the like to seek out the next adventuring opportunity....
Elgonn 10-28-05, 04:21 PM	Elgonn, have you even noticed that you now can increase the DC by any multiple of 10 to speed up the process as well? And it's in the PHB and SRD too! Yes. But it doesn't matter. It never becomes feasible to craft under those circumstances. When you are finally able to meet the check of the increased DC high enough to craft at reasonable times your amazingly high level. It also doesn't directly make level worthwhile. Even with a check of 40 and a DC of 38 (Full plate + Speed increase x3) it still takes 10 days to finish a suit of non-masterwork Full Plate. So with virtually epic level checks your doing a little better than what real life crafters did.
arbanafal 10-28-05, 05:43 PM	I agree with the statement that although the crafting times may be realistic, they do not work well in game. Even a few months to craft 1 item is too long. Although it can be resolved in 2 IRL seconds, our group have great trouble envisioning the party doing well...almost nothing, but fantasized training/reading just because one character needs half a year to craft something. The same was decided about magical items in our games. We decided upon dividing by 10000gp instead of 1000 to determine magical item creation time. For crafting we decide on a relative case by case basis.
ssvegeta555 10-29-05, 02:21 AM	Players should not be crafting such things (without fabricate or similar magic). They should be buying them from either people using fabricate or spending years to make it. That is why the game is called dungeons and dragons, not crafting and selling. If players arn't suppose to craft these stuff, then why is it an option availible as a class skill for pretty much all classes? If I spend skill points in any craft, whether it be for roleplaying reasons, or be self reliant, I expect to get results as any other skill. It takes way too much time to craft the exspensive items. I'm assuming the designers wanted a good set of rules for PCs to craft there own stuff, but it is excecuted poorly. It's a shame too, I really like the idea of crafting items, but with the rules a written, I consider craft as a useless skill most of the time.
Oliver D'Argent 10-29-05, 12:22 PM	Yeah... a plate harness takes a lot longer than a week to make. Try like.. 6 months to 2 years, depending on quality and how much work besides the craftsman is doing. Don't believe me? Contact Christian Fletcher or any other craftsman who makes period-correct plate armour and ask him how long it takes to make a complete suit of plate from scratch. Then add on some extra weeks to compensate for the fact that modern craftsmen have all the necessary materials right on hand, and advanced techniques and tools. And god forbid a difficult-to-make tool breaks during the process. Now the smith has to either buy a new one (probably taking at least a few weeks for the donkey-led caravans to bring it) or make one (again, few weeks) whereas a modern smith can simply order the tool on next-day shipping. And even a modern craftsman requires MONTHS of work to create a suit of plate. Vahenir is absolutely right here. Christian Fletcher made my suit of full plate for me a little over three years ago and it took at least nine months to complete. Click the link in my sig if you are interested in seeing what a historical suit of full plate might look like.