Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rogue_lettuce 08-13-06, 07:30 AM	Now I'm sure there's been some discussion of this before, but I don't remember the outcome, and I couldn't find anything with a google search. So here goes: I was just going through the magic item creation rules, and came to the conclusion that you could make gauntlets that grants 50 feats for 128,750gp; if you consider feats to be "similar effects" (surely they are?) that aid in "destruction", and base the cost of a feat effect off the ioun stone of alertness, you find that - 10,000/2 (because the stone is unslotted, this item will be slotted) = 5,000 5,000 x 75% = 3,750 5,000 x 50% = 2,500 SO (48 x 2,500) + 3,750 + 2,500 = 128,750 final cost. This seems completely unbalanced, and I was wondering what people recommend to make a more balanced item? I'm thinking of playing a fighter with wonderous items that grant feats. Would you treat the feats as different effects rather than similar ones (therefore you would pay full price for one and 150% for the others)? Making it unslotted would also double the total cost, that might balance it more? But even then, that's still only 70,000 for an ioun stone that grants Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization and Dodge, for instance (not that you wouldn't already have those feats, but you get the idea).
Bulletproof_Condom 08-13-06, 02:26 PM	10,000 gp is the cost of a slotless item that grants you a general feat with no prerequisites. Feats should be more expensive based on how powerful they are and how difficult they are to acquire. I mean let's face it, Whirlwind Attack would be a steal at 10,000 gp. Consider things like number of prereqs, high ability score prereqs, minimum levels, things like that.
Nephlite 08-13-06, 03:08 PM	This seems completely unbalanced, and I was wondering what people recommend to make a more balanced item? I'm thinking of playing a fighter with wonderous items that grant feats. Would you treat the feats as different effects rather than similar ones (therefore you would pay full price for one and 150% for the others)? Making it unslotted would also double the total cost, that might balance it more? Yes, it would costs x1 for the first and 1.5 for every one you add after (if it was a similiar effect it wouldn't stack). Same for adding two abilities to a item like a ring of NA and Protection costs normal forthe NA but 1.5 for protection. Also not all feats are "destructive". Also weapon focus wouldn't work because what is the focus? Did the caster who created this choose already? Unless it was intelligent: you couldn't change it. But even then, that's still only 70,000 for an ioun stone that grants Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization and Dodge, for instance (not that you wouldn't already have those feats, but you get the idea). But than we must work off idea that neither has prequisites, but these do. So I'd say 15, 000 for a feat that has prerequisites. But you couldn't use it unless youhave the prequisites. Now by giving the whole line: you got past this issue but not the cost. 15 k is based on prerequisite ones are harder to get those cost 1.5 more. Alertness cost 10 k 15, 000 + 22, 500 x 5 (112, 500 )=127, 500 if slotless. Ioun stone of Whirlwind (gives feat) cost 15, 000. Though you'll need the prerequisites to use it. I'd wager a feat that is given with prerequisites without need of prerequisites cost double that. so Ioun of Whirlwind (no prerequisite needed) is 30 k. Guantlet of Whirlwind (gives feat and need prequisites and destructive) is 7, 500. Granted some feats must be a case by case.
rogue_lettuce 08-13-06, 03:55 PM	Still, even using the above math, i can get ioun stones of whatever feat I feel like for 15,000 each, gauntlets of power attack for 7,500, etc. So that would be 10 feats for 150,000gp.
Esponer 08-13-06, 05:14 PM	Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not the case that there are no rules in v3.5 which support wondrous items granting feats? Reverse engineering wondrous item costs is also not Rules As Written and is downright foolish. The Arms & Equipment Guide (v3.0) does have some rules for wondrous items granting feats, but even they aren't entirely balanced and a great deal of DM fíat is required. Noting of course that all item creation rules in the DMG go hand-in-hand with DM fíat and are guidelines only. Lastly, quick rule-of-thumb for "similar abilities" and their discount. If you feel that you are actually gaining any sort of monetary benefit from employing this rule, you are probably employing it incorrectly and in a manner which would cause many players to shun you and exile you to the Abyss for the rest of your natural life. Different feats don't count as similar abilities, anyway.
rogue_lettuce 08-13-06, 05:27 PM	Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but is it not the case that there are no rules in v3.5 which support wondrous items granting feats? Reverse engineering wondrous item costs is also not Rules As Written and is downright foolish. The Arms & Equipment Guide (v3.0) does have some rules for wondrous items granting feats, but even they aren't entirely balanced and a great deal of DM fíat is required. Noting of course that all item creation rules in the DMG go hand-in-hand with DM fíat and are guidelines only. Exactly, I'm trying to get a balanced view on how much a feat should cost. I'm thinking something more like 30,000 unslotted for feats with other feats as prereqs and 15,000 for feats with no other feat as prereqs, or something like that. Does that sound ok?
Esponer 08-13-06, 05:40 PM	Exactly, I'm trying to get a balanced view on how much a feat should cost. I'm thinking something more like 30,000 unslotted for feats with other feats as prereqs and 15,000 for feats with no other feat as prereqs, or something like that. I'd say that any fixed rule is going to be a poor idea. Feats are, unfortunately, of vastly differing worth and prerequisites alone are not enough to measure the difference. There's a more pressing problem though: D&D is already extremely focused on your equipment, and by allowing items to grant any feats (irrespective of the cost), you take something important away from the game.
Nom 08-15-06, 12:30 AM	To pick on the other part of your idea... Despite the clumsy wording, the examples make it clear that "similar effects" and effects that rely on the same power source or are otherwise tied to each other. If an item casts charm person or charm animal once per day, the effects are similar because it is a single expanded effect whose total cannot be used independently. If an item casts charm person 1/day and charm animal 1/day, they are not "similar". The "similar effects" rules are the same as the rules used for staves, where a single charge can trigger one of several effects, but not all of them.
rogue_lettuce 08-15-06, 06:55 AM	To pick on the other part of your idea... Despite the clumsy wording, the examples make it clear that "similar effects" and effects that rely on the same power source or are otherwise tied to each other. If an item casts charm person or charm animal once per day, the effects are similar because it is a single expanded effect whose total cannot be used independently. If an item casts charm person 1/day and charm animal 1/day, they are not "similar". The "similar effects" rules are the same as the rules used for staves, where a single charge can trigger one of several effects, but not all of them. OK, I understand that now, but I've moved on from there. :P