Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Karui_Kage 08-21-07, 10:37 PM	Foreword: Please do not use this thread to tell me that Legacy Weapon penalties are bad, or that the penalties listed are too harsh. If you want to suggest a different table in the book to use (I'm using the one recommended for a bard-like spellcaster for the first one, 4-8), then that's fine. Hey everyone. My group is currently going through the Age of Worms campaign, and were all interested in legacy weapons. While two of them already have there's, I've started thinking about making customized ones to help satisfy the other three. So, here is my first idea, which could use some help in determining what Type (A-I) each ability should be ranked, to better determine where they would go in the chart. Idea One: For a Gray Elf Bard / Lyrical Thaumaturge Piercing Note Nonlegacy Game Statistics: +1 Composite Longbow; Cost 2,400 gp; Damage 1d8; Weight 5 lbs. Omen: Piercing Note counts as both a composite longbow and a masterwork harp. Feats or abilities that effect either longbows or harps effect Piercing Note. The duration of any bardic music used in conjunction with Piercing Note is increased by one round. Character Level Skill Check Penalty Caster Level Penalty Skill Point Loss Spell Slot Loss Abilities 5th --- --- --- --- Symphonic Shot 6th --- -1 2 --- +2 Composite Longbow 7th --- --- --- 1st Crescendo Minor 8th --- --- 2 --- Flexible Might +1 9th --- --- 2 --- Crescendo 10th -1 --- --- 2nd Flexible Might +2 11th --- --- --- --- --- 12th --- --- 2 --- +2 Composite Longbow, Elastic Song 13th --- -2 --- 3rd Crescendo Major 14th --- --- 2 --- +2 Arcane Might Composite Longbow 15th -2 --- --- --- --- 16th --- --- --- 4th Greater Elastic Song, Flexible Might +3 17th --- --- --- --- +3 Arcane Might Composite Longbow 18th --- -3 2 --- Deceptive Cadence, Flexible Might +4 19th --- --- --- 5th +5 Arcane Might Composite Longbow 20th -3 --- 2 --- G Ability Symphonic Shot (Su): Though Piercing Note lacks many strings at the start, it can still be used as a musical instrument. At 5th level, Piercing Note can be played as a harp, along with allowing the user to simultaneously fire arrows from it as a bow. Playing Piercing Note in this fashion requires a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity. Piercing Note still lacks many of the strings necessary for proper music, however, and Perform checks with it suffer a -5 penalty. Flexible Might (Su): Certain strings of Piercing Note tighten, requiring more strength to pull and use to fire arrows. Because of this, the damage dealt to enemies also increases. As more strings re-attach themselves to Piercing Note, the user's options in damage flexibility increase. The wielder may begin adding her strength to damage, though the maximum allowed is limited by Piercing Note's capabilities. At 8th level, the maximum to damage allowed is +1. At 10th level, this increases to +2. At 16th level, this increases to +3. At 18th level, the maximum to damage caps at +4. Crescendo Minor (Su): At 7th level, a few of Piercing Note's strings re-adhere themselves to the harp-weapon, removing the Perform penalty from its use. Crescendo (Su): At 9th level, more of Piercing Note's strings re-adhere themselves, and the magic of the item increases. Perform checks made using it are granted a +5 competence bonus. Elastic Song (Su): At 12th level, Piercing Note gains an additional enhancement decided upon by its wielder. The enhancement may be chosen from either Flame, Frost, Shock, or Thundering. Once chosen, this enhancement is not permanent. By spending a full round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the wielder can play Piercing Note to change the granted enhancement. Doing this requires the wielder to also expend a use of bardic music. At 16th level, Piercing Note can hold up to two of these enhancements at once. The wielder can still only change one enhancement at a time though. Crescendo Major (Su): At 13th level, nearly all of Piercing Note's strings have attached themselves back to the frame, increasing the bonus to Perform to a +10 competence bonus. Deceptive Cadence (Su): At 18th level, Piercing Note has been fully restored. All of its twenty-five strings have been firmly re-attached, and any Perform checks made with it are granted a +15 competence bonus. Ideas for abilities that I need help translating into "Menu" options (IE: Is it an A, a C, an H, etc.?): A per day ability that let the user change the bow's type into either a Flaming, Frost, Shock, or Ghost Touch type temporarily. Maybe a per encounter ability instead, with the justification that the end of an encounter is any time in which no battle happens for at least 5 minutes (50 rounds). I like the whole per encounter thing of Tome of Battle, so it's a decent idea. Possible explanation: At 11th level, the user chooses a type from the following list to add as an enhancement to her bow. This is not a permanent enhancement, and by sacrificing a bardic music ability, she can switch this to any of the other allowed enhancements. The list of chooseable enhancements includes: Flaming, Frost, Shock, or Thundering (Open to ideas on what to add to this as well) The ability to 'add' strings to the bow, making it gradually more and more into a harp and a bow. Arrows could still be fired without penalty, but with every string added it would enhance the user's ability to play the harp while firing the bow, maybe enhance bardic abilities as well. With each extra string, the bow becomes more flexible in regards to the Mighty ability. The first string adds a Mighty +1, the second a Mighty +2, and the user can choose which 'string' to fire from, so the appropriate Mighty is always used. Suggestions? Essentially, the concept for this Bow is to augment the Bard's abilities, and be flexible (like a Bard, especially this one with Bardic Knack). I wanted the ability to add strings to be there, so that she could use it as a Harp and play bardic music while still attacking. Anyhow, the concept is still in the alpha stages. Suggestions? Ideas on what the abilities should represent in terms of "Ranks"? A, B, etc. Fill this thread with your ideas, please! I have other items that I'll probably need help with once this is done, so any input is appreciated.
DracoPhoenix 08-22-07, 08:09 AM	Ideas for abilities that I need help translating into "Menu" options (IE: Is it an A, a C, an H, etc.?): A per day ability that let the user change the bow's type into either a Flaming, Frost, Shock, or Ghost Touch type temporarily. Maybe a per encounter ability instead, with the justification that the end of an encounter is any time in which no battle happens for at least 5 minutes (50 rounds). I like the whole per encounter thing of Tome of Battle, so it's a decent idea. Possible explanation: At 11th level, the user chooses a type from the following list to add as an enhancement to her bow. This is not a permanent enhancement, and by sacrificing a bardic music ability, she can switch this to any of the other allowed enhancements. The list of chooseable enhancements includes: Flaming, Frost, Shock, or Thundering (Open to ideas on what to add to this as well) Try the menu B ability that can confer a +1 or +1 equivalent enchantment and go for 24/7 +flaming (or frost etc). Consider a menu C to change it 1/day to something from a list. The ability to 'add' strings to the bow, making it gradually more and more into a harp and a bow. Arrows could still be fired without penalty, but with every string added it would enhance the user's ability to play the harp while firing the bow, maybe enhance bardic abilities as well. Not 100% on how to do this, but: With each extra string, the bow becomes more flexible in regards to the Mighty ability. The first string adds a Mighty +1, the second a Mighty +2, and the user can choose which 'string' to fire from, so the appropriate Mighty is always used. Which one's +Mighty? Mighty Cleaving can only be applied to melee attacks. As for the appropriate pricing, I'd probably cost as the highest price - just because you don't want to / can't make an/all the extra attack(s) is not the ability's fault (or problem). Other wise, see the various +X magic weapon enchantment bonus abilities. Don't know how'd you treat stacking though. Suggestions? Essentially, the concept for this Bow is to augment the Bard's abilities, and be flexible (like a Bard, especially this one with Bardic Knack). I wanted the ability to add strings to be there, so that she could use it as a Harp and play bardic music while still attacking. Anyhow, the concept is still in the alpha stages. Suggestions? Ideas on what the abilities should represent in terms of "Ranks"? A, B, etc. Fill this thread with your ideas, please! I have other items that I'll probably need help with once this is done, so any input is appreciated. Also consider the +5/10/15 skill bonus abilities (to perform), the magic cipher & comprehend languages would be good fluff ones (menu A's) I'm afraid I'm not 100% on bardic skill strength, but consider (don't hold me to) say, a +2 equivalent to confer +4 musicals (bardic songs) / day (Is there an item like the nightstick for Bards you could get a relative price from?) Another idea is to make it a wondrous item (Harp), that can fire energy bolts (treat as summoned ammo (+1/flaming etc?)) when played in a certain manner. Don't ask about the price though :) Possibly consider (as a cost reducer) that it costs X bardic musics to change the type from regular bolts (1 for +1d6 fire, frost, electric, 2 for 1d4 force), which has to be paid each day and each change (i.e once per day or you get "normal" bolts, and then +X for each change after) I'd probably make "regular" (crossbow) bolts an "A" and the change for songs a "B" on top of it (Or "C" for both)
Amaril 08-22-07, 08:27 AM	Would you mind posting a copy of this in the 1001 Weapons of Legacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=893387) thread? It never really took off, but I think it's a good idea.
Karui_Kage 08-22-07, 01:49 PM	Try the menu B ability that can confer a +1 or +1 equivalent enchantment and go for 24/7 +flaming (or frost etc). Consider a menu C to change it 1/day to something from a list. Not 100% on how to do this, but: I used a D ability to put up the initial placement, but it might be worth making an E (thus sacrificing the 11th ability and moving it to 12th), or even an F. I think ideally, I'd like to have the player choose one of the enhancements for it to gain to start, but have the ability to sacrifice a bardic music use and use the strings to 'play' a different one (purely thematic, would just let them change the enhancement type as a standard action that may provoke AoO, I forget if just playing an instrument does, but I believe so). Which one's +Mighty? Mighty Cleaving can only be applied to melee attacks. It's not a magical enhancement, I meant the Mighty ability from the PHB that lets a user add their strength to damage. As more strings are added to the bow, the ability to be flexible with the Mighty useage increases (four strings, each one has a different Mighty plus, so the holder can use whichever one would benefit her strength the most). Also consider the +5/10/15 skill bonus abilities (to perform), the magic cipher & comprehend languages would be good fluff ones (menu A's) I was actually thinking about something like that for the extra strings. With the initial ability, no extra strings other than the bow one, there would be a -5 to perform to use the bow-harp. With the first string, it becomes an even +0 (only two strings does not a harp make, but it's magic! I'm open to ideas though). With the second string, it would give a +5, then a +10 for the third, and a final +15 for the fourth. I'm afraid I'm not 100% on bardic skill strength, but consider (don't hold me to) say, a +2 equivalent to confer +4 musicals (bardic songs) / day (Is there an item like the nightstick for Bards you could get a relative price from?) I'm not sure, I'd have to look through my books. I don't recall one though. Another idea is to make it a wondrous item (Harp), that can fire energy bolts (treat as summoned ammo (+1/flaming etc?)) when played in a certain manner. Don't ask about the price though :) That's an idea as well! :) Possibly consider (as a cost reducer) that it costs X bardic musics to change the type from regular bolts (1 for +1d6 fire, frost, electric, 2 for 1d4 force), which has to be paid each day and each change (i.e once per day or you get "normal" bolts, and then +X for each change after) I'd probably make "regular" (crossbow) bolts an "A" and the change for songs a "B" on top of it (Or "C" for both) Hmmmm. Quite interesting. I might use this for the initial thing, and forego the strings entirely. Have it start as a harp in the shape as a bow, and let the user fire summoned ammo from it with certain tunes. It's definitely a good idea! any other suggestions?
Karui_Kage 08-22-07, 01:50 PM	Would you mind posting a copy of this in the 1001 Weapons of Legacy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=893387) thread? It never really took off, but I think it's a good idea. I'd be happy to, but I'd like to actually finish the weapon first. I'll check out that thread though. :)
Karui_Kage 08-22-07, 02:48 PM	Does anyone have the book handy that could tell me what rank the three skill boosts are? The +5, +10, and +15 ones? Thanks in advance.
Karui_Kage 08-22-07, 06:50 PM	Right now, my tentative idea with it is the following progression, which would go by the WoL guidelines: A small harp, from what I can tell, has about 22 strings. Large harps have about 47, but those are huge. For the purposes of this progression, I began the bow-harp with five strings, and end it at twenty-five. The non-legacy bow would be a +1 composite longbow, that extends the duration of bardic music abilities by 1 round. The first ability, at level 5, would let the user play the bow as a harp while still attacking. Doing this still costs a move action each round to 'play' it, so the user would only be able to get one attack (if she didn't move). The strings are the complex part (kind of), and detailed below. Start: Bow has one primary string, four secondary strings. Primary string is used to fire bow. Perform (Harp) is at -5 at this time. First: Bow has two primary strings, eight secondary strings. New primary string may be used to fire as a Mighty +1 bow. Perform (Harp) is at +0 at this time. Second: Bow has three primary strings, twelve secondary strings. New primary string may be used to fire as a Mighty +2 bow. Perform (Harp) is at +5 at this time. Third: Bow has four primary strings, sixteen secondary strings. New primary string may be used to fire as a Mighty +3 bow. Perform (Harp) is at +10 at this time. Fourth: Bow has five primary strings, twenty secondary strings. New primary string may be used to fire as a Mighty +4 bow. Perform (Harp) is at +15 at this time. In addition to the strings, the bow harp has other abilities. At some point (tentatively 11th level), the user gets the ability to have a 'Custom' enhancement added to the bow. This may only be chosen from the Flaming, Frost, Shock, or Thundering enhancements. Once chosen, it can be changed to one of the other options by sacrificing a bardic music use, and if the user spends a Full Round Action (that provokes attacks of opportunity) 'playing' the new enhancement. At another level, I believe 13th, the bow also gains the "Arcane Might" enhancement (+1 enhancement from the MIC). I have to stat all this out at home, as I think this is all the bow could have (the skill bonuses are powerful in and of themself, and the 'custom' enhancement is worth a bit more), but I think it would all work in just fine. If there's room, I'd add in a higher level ability (Greater) that would let the user play the harp as a free action while attacking. Thoughts?
Karui_Kage 08-23-07, 12:49 AM	Alright, if anyone is still paying attention to this thread, I think I've got the item mostly worked out, and would love opinions. I have yet to create the rituals for it yet, or backstory, but I have a general idea. Piercing Note itself begins with all of its twenty-five strings partially attached, though only a few are useable at the beginning. As the user increases in level and performs more rituals, more strings gradually re-attached as described above. Anyhow, check out the new abilities and progression. My first post is all updated. The only thing I am a bit unsure about is the Flexible Might +3 and +4 abilities, as they seem a little weak for D and G abilities and I was wondering if there was something I could add. Maybe a spell-like ability or two? Well, please, pile the suggestions/criticism/praise/etc. on. Do you think this is balanced for a Weapon of Legacy, and do you think there is anything that could use change/improvement? Thanks in advance! I still need a good 'capstone' ability. Was a +6 enhancement bonus to an ability score a G ability? If so, I think that's what I'll make it, to Charisma.
Karui_Kage 08-23-07, 02:20 PM	Well, I'll give it one obligatory :bump: Anyone out there even still use legacy weapons? I love the book, and think it makes for some great items.