Post/Author/DateTime	Post
isaac anthony 05-07-07, 12:59 AM	Coming up with a new spell or even feat seems like a fairly common thing, what about new items? Let's say I have a character that wants to make a new kind of armor (completely mundane). What kind of craft check do you put on creating an entirely new "type" of armor? What's more, most DM's I've run across won't even try to look at this as a legitimate activity. How do you propose this kind of thing to your DM without getting shut-down before you even make a proposal? It strikes me as kind of odd that cultures stuck in "medieval" times (for thousands of years) never come up with technological innovations. Not everyone has a 17th level caster around to do the heavy lifting for them. Genius in the form of inventors would exist, Ebberon is becoming more and more attractive to me as a game world, but even that setting is missing a lot of mundane technology that I would think inventors would come up with. I like the idea of magic/tech, they just seem to miss a few steps. Let's go back to my armor idea. With armor smiths working on armor for who knows how long, you'd think that they could come up with armor that's a tad better than the stuff you see on the tables in the PHB. BALANCE seems to be the argument against my idea. I'm not saying that balance shouldn't be a factor in the equation, I just think said armor would be prohibitively more expensive than the junk in the PHB. I see all these splat-books that give a new "term" to armor, like: "tumblers breastplate". Which is kind-of what I'm getting at, but how stupid/twink sounding is "tumblers breastplate"? Why not just come up with a whole new category of armor, and make it more expensive? I've also been looking at D20 modern, but a lot of that seems really cheesy. I've never played modern, but something about it just rubs me the wrong way. They have things like bullet-proof vests, but it seems like that's missing a bunch of in-between steps too... That's about all I have to say right now, anyone else given this subject any thought, or everyone stuck in knight in shining armor mode? thanks in advance for any ideas or feedback!
Dire_Rhino 05-07-07, 01:17 AM	Let's say I have a character that wants to make a new kind of armor (completely mundane). What kind of craft check do you put on creating an entirely new "type" of armor? What's more, most DM's I've run across won't even try to look at this as a legitimate activity. How do you propose this kind of thing to your DM without getting shut-down before you even make a proposal? My answer to this is a rousing and definite "It depends". Are you talking a new suit of armor (like, say, a different kind of heavy armor?) or a whole new class of armors (medium-heavy?). If so, I'd look at what you wanted to do and ask, "Is there a way to do this in the rules?" Armor of silent moves would probably be my base, without needing to change the system. Only if what you propose a) does not trip my Munchkin-o-meter and b) is legitimately not possible with existing rules would I consider it. As for the rest; it sounds like you want to play in a more steam-punk-ish setting than D&D was intended for. Which is fine; Eberron is close, and IIRC Green Ronin puts out a good steampunk handbook (might be wrong, I don't use 3rd party stuff). It's just not written in to the system, and if you as a player come to me as a DM and say "Well, I want to add to the fundamental system mechanic..." I will need to think very long and hard about why. And, as a last thought: "Tumbler's Breastplate": Breastplate of Masterful Tumbling: This +1 breastplate magically enhances the Tumble skill of the wearer, granting her a +5 bonus on Tumble checks. Cost: 5,000 GP. CL 4th, must have 5 ranks in Tumble. Increases tumbling? Check. Prohibitively expensive vs. PHB? Check. Easily created? Check. (CL 4 is easily reachable). And, thus, your breastplate is created in the system, without modifying it unnecessarily. Heck, you could change the flavor to read: This exquisitely designed breastplate is made of the finest iron with adamantine-reinforced spring joints, giving the user exceptional control over their body's motion. No mention of magic, but that doesn't change the balanced, in-system mechanics. In fact, you could even drop magic from your armor all together. It's not a +5 breastplate, it's a mundane breastplate elegantly crafted from the finest ores, reinforced with adamantine, mithral, and cold iron, with delicate whorls and tracery that deflect your enemies' blows in ways no cheaply smithed breastplate could! However, the mechanics are identical to a +5 breastplate, and the cost is equally in line. Remember, if it doesn't change a die roll, it can be whatever you want. ~DR
isaac anthony 05-07-07, 01:35 AM	Thanks for the info! Will definitely check into the steam-punk stuff! As far as the "tumblers breastplate" it actually exists in the "races of stone" handbook. It's one of the only items i've seen in supplementals that I didn't think was completely worthless. There are a few other things in that book that are decent, but not worth mentioning. That is however, the direction I'd like to take things. I'm not talking about creating a new category of armor "medium-heavy" just better quality that the garbage that is in the PHB. "masterwork" armor is kind-of a joke as far as I'm concerned. On the low-end, it's nice and all, but once you get to around 10th or so levels (in the games i've been in) EVERYTHING mundane takes a back-seat to MAGIC!!! It would be nice if you could spend 50k on a mundane suit of armor, and it would be almost as beneficial as a suit of magical armor of that price. Again, after how many thousands of years, you'd think craftsman would get a little better at making mundane items...
Dire_Rhino 05-07-07, 02:11 AM	I agree with you, to an extent. I find it rather bland that Joe Q. Guardsman, the level 3 captain of a patrol, goes into his guardhouse to find row after row of enchanted +1 breastplates, which look just like normal breastplates except they glow in the dark. Rather, I say that any armor can be magical, mundane, or both. In Joe Q.'s case, the Imperial armor-smiths have been forging the finest breastplates in the world (not really, but the hyperbole works) for the past five hundred years; even the lowliest Imperial smith can create a breastplate that outshines the best efforts of a craftsman outside the Holy City. So, Joe sees row after row of finely wrought breastplates that add 1 extra point to the base AC bonus of the breastplate, and cost 1300 more than a normal breastplate does. As long as I can trust my players (which I can) to not abuse the technically stackable nature of the two bonuses, I'm gold. In your case, if you were playing with me, and you wanted to drop 50K on a suit of mundane armor, I'd let your RP finding the greatest smith in the land to forge you a breastplate that granted 5 extra points of AC due to the fine craftsmanship, as well as being crafted of rare ores that were dark as jet, giving you a +10 bonus to Hide checks, and channeled electricity around your body to the ground, giving you resist electricity 10. Totally mundane; a mage hasn't even entered the smithy for the entire process. Really? You've got a +5 improved shadow breastplate of electricity resistance. But it's flavored as you like it. Like I said, if your description doesn't modify a die roll, you can have anything you want. It's fun to make a guy with mechanical full plate and shield, and describe him as wearing no armor and simply dodging every blow. Fixes the whole "Hey, more full plate! That's money thurr!" problem, too.
isaac anthony 05-07-07, 02:21 AM	I think it would be the kind of thing where you'd have a bunch of people making the chains for a suite of chain-mail, smaller, and smaller. And would pay attention to things like: if i leave out this triangle: fighter seems to be able to move much better. maybe we could put a plate over the area where the triangle of chain is missing? I would think things like Mithril and Adamantine would become common forging tools to make the unique armor stronger/lighter/more flexible by using advanced armor-smithing techniques.
tarkin 05-08-07, 11:56 AM	The reason why new armors don't get made is not so much balance as realism. In reality, pretty much the following armor types were made/used: Hide (abandoned as soon as leather became useable) Leather Chain/ring (+ cloth/leather underneath) Breastplate/Brigadine (+ cloth/leather) Platemail/Half plate (Breastplate with chain + cloth/leather) Articulated full Plate mail/Scale/Banded of various qualities (+ cloth/leather) That was pretty much it. Everything else was quality issues - his chain was better than the other guy so it was called Chain as opposed to Ring. Or someone confused Brigadine armor that was basically Platemail with a light cloth/leather layer on TOP of it with "Studded Leather". Honestly, there are not that many different things you can do to make armor. It always has to cover your body, always has to be flexible, always needs to be light enough to wear pretty much all the time. Heavy Calvary could get slightly heavier armor, but that slows them down, made it more dificult to get on/off the horse, etc. Those are pretty harsh limitations. It is hard to come up with something new.
JulesCARV 05-08-07, 12:05 PM	If you're talking about some kind of new arrangement of armor, not dependent on different materials (mithral, adamantine, kevlar, etc), but just on rearranging mundane steel in new ways, then I'm not sure how you'd improve on what already exists. Could you describe what you plan to do, or maybe link to pictures or articles on types of armor you'd like to see?