Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DracoPhoenix 12-18-06, 09:43 AM	Hi all, Just wondered if I could get some feed back on an idea I'm playing with for an up & comming campaign. I'm basically looking at letting one item of each PC develop into it's own legacy item. I'm still not 100% on balancing factors (suggestions welcome), as I don't want them to use a feat to progress them, so am currently thinking reduced loot as appropriate: I'm thinking of these comming into play around L4. Current idea as follows (copied from notes, so apologies for any nonsense): Starts off as a +1 weapon or armour - will consider wonderous items as appropriate. Can be sold, but will no longer progress as a legacy item. At the next character level up they gain one +1 ability (DM determined? PCs should gain at least 1/2 a level worth of xp after acquiring item before bonus manifests?) Any and all abilities must be inline with character (RP & combat attitude). Pacifist monks cannot add +flaming to their gauntlets (bad example). Undead hunting clerics can add undead bane to their mace / staff. Every 2-3 levels after they gain a "+1 bonus" which can be either *saved (and spent at any future character level up), *used to develop a new ability or *improve an existing ability. Players can pick any future abilities (beyond first, subject to DM approval (loose)) Abilities can include spells / day. Depending on level of spell, defaults to 1/day per +1 (per 2 spell levels?). Example (bad & unrealistic length) stealth rogue progression: found: Cloak of Protection +1 1st bonus: gains +5 enchantment to hide checks 2nd: Gains 10% (+10% = +1 ability) concealment 3rd: Gains 20% concealment (total, not cumulative) 4th: Gains knock 1/day caster level @ 1/2 char level, unless PC has mage levels (in which case it's mage levels + 1/2 remaining levels) 5th: None. Saved for 6th 6th: Gains invisibility 1/day. 7th: Gains knock 2/day. +8 item over 14? levels Healer: Found: Staff +1 1st: CLW 1/day 2nd: CLW 3/day 3rd: none 4th: Raise Dead 1/week (+2 bonus?) 5th: none 6th: Ressurect 1/month? (replaces Raise dead) 7th: Heal 1/ Day. Yeah, the balance is out on these two, but they're just example ideas :) Good idea / bad idea? balancing suggestions? (Assume responsible / non-cheese players)
DracoPhoenix 12-19-06, 09:21 AM	:bump: Didn't think it was that bad an idea...
zzakk2to2 12-19-06, 07:36 PM	i think its a good idea that deserves some remarks but because i dont really have the books to help i can only post and hope it atracts attention so i can learn.
DracoPhoenix 12-20-06, 05:41 AM	i think its a good idea that deserves some remarks but because i dont really have the books to help i can only post and hope it atracts attention so i can learn. Thanks, opinions are just as welcome - I'm not after a proper "Weapon of Legacy" item, but trying to get it so the players have an incentive / reward to develop along their chosen RP path. It's more "before they were famous" legacy items. Are the bonuses too few or too many? (would a +1-2 bonus every 3-4 levels be better?) Should they get +1 enhancement & +1 maigc bonus / 4 levels? What things should definately be out of bounds? (a +4 enchantment ability at any point, wish per day etc - ok, the wish per day is pretty obvious (maybe 1/year?)) For non weapon / armour bonuses, what things should be considered +1, +2 etc. (presdigitation at will could be a +1 ability, while CLW at will would be +3) Is this likely to become too overpowered or are players likely to become too dependent on them? What about the really clever player stacking abilities so taken individually, they dont appear that powerful. Or even the player doesn't realise the item's abilities combined power. But when in combat / appropriate siituation they're unstoppable. Would you reward this creativity? (and then ask them to reselect abilities?) MDJ their item at the first oppertunity? (The plus side is I've told my group that they can break the game as much as they like - they're the ones who have to play the game.) Should I make them flavour only items - +2 to specfic class skills for rogues, specified cantrips at will for mages, ever sharp blades for warriors?
zzakk2to2 12-20-06, 08:39 AM	well then try having a thing every other level instead of practicly every one and around level 5 start making it inteligent by having a low starting score and have it get more inteligent with all those nifty abilitys that inteligent swords get like that rogues cloak could telepathicly warn him of someone behind him so he cant be taken off guard as easily and have this happen on the off levels. you could say that the item is slowly picking up their personality and it would not be to far off to align it with their alignment that way like a paladin wont want another sword because theirs already is LG with all its side affects.
DracoPhoenix 12-20-06, 09:45 AM	well then try having a thing every other level instead of practicly every one and around level 5 start making it inteligent by having a low starting score and have it get more inteligent with all those nifty abilitys that inteligent swords get like that rogues cloak could telepathicly warn him of someone behind him so he cant be taken off guard as easily and have this happen on the off levels. you could say that the item is slowly picking up their personality and it would not be to far off to align it with their alignment that way like a paladin wont want another sword because theirs already is LG with all its side affects. I like the intelligent idea :). The only problem is, it's my first campaign, so handling 4 intelligent items at this point may be a bit too much. I'm also a terrible one for saying too much to my group on my campaign as it is :(. The number of times we've talked via email and I've deleted 3/4s the email because it told them more than they needed. It's even worse in person.... That said, depending on how I do with the rest of the campaign, I may at least allow intelligence as an ability option. In that case, I think it may be a case of lifting the psycrystal approach on intelligent items - a stealthy rogue's cloak would develop a "sneaky" mentality (+2 to hide & advice bias on avoiding the problem). Would it be too much to say they would then gain the Alertness feat as a result? For the similar reasons of the psycrystal. I'm thinking so at this point. I need to keep remembering that these items shouldn't be the main class ability - more flavour for the character. If the items get too powerful / useful, they cease to be "before they were famous" and become "the reason they're famous". Which is not what I'm after. I after more of a collection of small ability increases geared towards their chosen approach to life & adventuring. Things that arn't powerful, but arn't useless either. On an unrelated note, Can anyone advise on a loot value reduction? My current thinking is something like: Reduce the partys gold over the level to come by the total price of upgrading the items by one +1 enchantment. (e.g. upgrading a +1 item to +2 is (2*2*1000) - (1*1*1000)=3000gp, x4 = 12000, wealth per level is therefore reduced by 12000g. Unfortunately this heavily reduces their loot wealth, and the item is being more or less forced on them (unless they choose to sell the item or not upgrade), so perhaps 1)cost based on crafting (i.e. 1/2 book cost) and or 2)up to 30% as the items are effectively restricted to the individual. which would reduce the cost as follows: @ 1/2 book cost: 12000 -> 6000g loot reduction. @ 30% discount: 12000 -> 8400g loot reduction @ 1/2 book cost and 30% discount -> 4200g. I'm thinking crafting costs (i.e 1/2 book cost) atm.
zzakk2to2 12-20-06, 02:06 PM	one way to make it so they dont feel cheated at low treasure is to have the items worked in so that they know they will get better and thus offset their loss. another is give them treasures that have a lot of one time use thing like scroll of haste. sure its good but you use it and its gone. also cut back on generating regular magic items like +1 swords so they are more inclined to keep thier legacy items. final is to face them against stuff like wild aminals where unless your at their den you probably wont find much treasure and have the group have to find the den or nest or whatever to get more treasure and make sure they know this and that they will face more at said place. this gives them a temparary goal and something to accomplish. along with this make some of the reward that the towns people will notice hay they killed all them giant rats now we are safer lets be nice to them and give them discount or something or maybe some money or even if its big a house because damn you killed the dragon here have a house to stay at while in town.
DracoPhoenix 12-20-06, 06:48 PM	one way to make it so they dont feel cheated at low treasure is to have the items worked in so that they know they will get better and thus offset their loss. another is give them treasures that have a lot of one time use thing like scroll of haste. sure its good but you use it and its gone. also cut back on generating regular magic items like +1 swords so they are more inclined to keep thier legacy items. final is to face them against stuff like wild aminals where unless your at their den you probably wont find much treasure and have the group have to find the den or nest or whatever to get more treasure and make sure they know this and that they will face more at said place. this gives them a temparary goal and something to accomplish. along with this make some of the reward that the towns people will notice hay they killed all them giant rats now we are safer lets be nice to them and give them discount or something or maybe some money or even if its big a house because damn you killed the dragon here have a house to stay at while in town. No offense, but I'd avoide the blue colour & the impact font from now on - very difficult to read :(. I was hoping to give the items non-standard abilities, to make them unique as it is. (+X flaming longsword is just "so passe"). I probably will advise the players that the weapons will develop over time. While I won't stop the players selling them, I also won't stop them buying other magic items (even of that type), and probably wont filter out their drop loot. They're going to be part of a story arc reward and while I'd like them to develop their items of legacy, it won't be mandatory. The one shot items also look like a good idea, though I have to make sure 1) I don't give them too much of items they'll need / use a lot and 2) I don't give them crap they'll just sell - I might as well have just given them the gold. 2 of the campaign arcs planned (including the one these will feature in) have a substantial number of "beast" encounters, and loot will probably be larger infrequent drops.
zzakk2to2 12-20-06, 07:04 PM	thanks for the advise on impact font and for the special abilitys why not make it up as you go along? if the thief is always bluffing add a bonus to bluff if he's stealing instead add it to slieght of hand. also if you have an encounter where something goes really wrong like they fall of a tall cliff have it so the item develops feather fall once a week or something so they live and it will add to their legacy.
Stormonu 12-21-06, 01:36 AM	Why not make the improvements worth a fraction of the "character wealth by level" per level? I'd shoot for about 1/3 to 1/4 the CWbL for the characters. If the characters want to give the item a big ability, they may have to hold off for a few levels. Example - "Cloak of the Rogue" When first found, this item has the powers of a Cloak of Elvinkind (+5 to Hide, 2,500 gp). As the characters go up in power, they can add abilities worth the following: (Note: "GP" = 1/3 the CWbL on DMG Table 5-1. The amount here is higher than I think you'll want to use, as I'm not bothering to use the CWbL and subtracting gold the PC is already assumed to have from the previous level) Level GP Used Remaining Ability 2nd +300 gp -180 gp +120 Ghost Sound (CL 1) 1x/day (180 gp) 3rd +900 gp 0 gp +1,020 no ability 4th +1,800 gp -2,000 +820 +1 AC [deflection] (2,000 gp) 5th +4,333 gp -4,900 +953 +2 Dex [enhancement](4,000 gp), +3 Move Silently (900 gp) 6th +4,333 gp -4,000 +1,296 +2 Saves [resistance] (4,000 gp) 7th +6,333 gp -7,500 +129 +10 Hide* (7,500 gp) 8th +9,000 gp -8,480 +520 Invisiblity (CL 5) 3x/day (6,480 gp), Disguise Self (CL1) at will (2,000 gp) 9th +12,000 gp -12,000 +520 +4 Dex [enhancement] (12,000 gp) 10th +16,333 gp -16,200 +320 Blink (CL 5) 3x/day *Discounted, based on previous bonus cost Rather than reduce the wealth gain, why don't you make the PCs invest the money into the item for rituals or whatnot to activate the ability (1/2 value of ability, as if making the magic item). You don't have to worry about reducing the treasure they get, and if they don't want to improve the item, they can spend their gold elsewhere. The big advantage is that they get to pick what they want, rather than end up with random magic items. Thus, to pay for the above, the rogue character would pay: 2nd level (or later) - 90 gp 4th level (or later) - 1,000 gp 5th level (or later) - 2,450 gp 6th level (or later) - 2,000 gp 7th level (or later) - 3,750 gp 8th level (or later) - 4,240 gp 9th level (or later) - 6,000 gp 10th level (or later) - 8,100 gp Grand Total spent: 27,630 gp. Value of the Cloak (at 10th level): 55,260 gp A 10th level starting character would have 49,000 gp. In essence, he'd spend a little over 50% of his starting gold to get all the item's abilities activated. Sorry it's so complex, I made a whole bunch of tables for this in my own game (unfortunately, I don't have them near me at the moment). I like it a whole lot better than the Weapons of Legacy crap, though it more complicated to put together an item.
DracoPhoenix 12-21-06, 04:25 AM	The idea is that the items develop into legacy items on their own (or at least with their PCs direction). While they start out as standard +1 items and I may specify or give a list to pick from for the items first ability, thats more to give them an idea of what direction to head in (A bow of legacy wasn't originally used by a monk). After that, the PCs will be able to pick what they like. They'll have to run it past me, but thats just so the fighter doesn't develop a keen flaming vorpal weapon or the mage aquire rogue skills. @Stormonu: It's an interesting idea, and I will think on it. The problem is I'm trying to balance it without causing a substantial loss. Losing a substaintial amount of cwbl, would mean that the item must be worth the shortfall (i.e substantially powerful). As exampled above, the items are intended to encourage RP development of the character, not give them artifact grade items by L20. The funny thing is the "ritual" to gain an ability is pretty much adventure using that trait, it's how they became legacy items in the first palce :). To gain +X to hide, you need to hide / sneak about the place. (sorry, to keep using it, but sneak is the first thing useful example I think on this thread...should I be worried? :)) I think weapons are going to be harder to balance as they typically need to be powerful. I was originally going off the magic weapon bonuses as they already have costs (and upgrade costs) attached to them - X*X*1000 (-the cost of the previous enchantment(s)). They also worked on the balance already :) It probably doesn't help that I'm trying to leave the details open (the abilities they can take), while at the same time limiting them (Stealth gains stealth abilities).... Anyone care to throw in some example items to think on? I put two at the start, though I think they may just be on the wrong side of "balanced" of power v flavour. I'm going for polished rather than shine on the items. Something that they'll want to keep and use, without it being because the thing one shots monsters. Currently going with the item found at L4, gaining a bonus every 3 levels: Sneaky Ranger (Archer): Found: +1 Short Bow level 2: Ectoplasmic Bolts. The bow can use arrows normally, however, if the bow string is drawn without an arrow, it creates an ectoplasmic arrow automatically (can be used as often as you can make attacks, (based on the psionic power, Bolt (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bolt.htm)). Arrows dissipated 1 round after firing. level 3: +10 to hide checks while sniping. level 4: Elemental Ectoplasm. The bows ectoplasmic bolts do +2d6 fire, cold or electricity damage (or no elemental bonus). This type of damage can only be changed once every hour, as a full round action. level 5: +10% Concealment level 6: Fortified Arrows. Your ectoplasmic arrows gain 1/2 the enchantment value of the bow (rounded down) as an enhancement bonus. (e.g. @+6 : arrows are treated as +3 (+elemental damage) (Still not happy with the balance)
zzakk2to2 12-21-06, 08:29 AM	the plus 10 to hide is alot because you would have their hide score and if they can take ten thats 20 even without it so try only adding 5 to it. also the elemental things neat but what if instead of being able to change its type it does 1d6 of both so that if it turns out to powerful you can always through a creature immune to one or the other so it doesnt look like you trying to take it away by using immune creature because it would still work only it would work at half the damage and do you realy want to have to remember what its set to because when it comes to players they are there to play not remember whether thier bow shoots electricity or cold.
DracoPhoenix 12-21-06, 09:32 AM	the plus 10 to hide is alot because you would have their hide score and if they can take ten thats 20 even without it so try only adding 5 to it. also the elemental things neat but what if instead of being able to change its type it does 1d6 of both so that if it turns out to powerful you can always through a creature immune to one or the other so it doesnt look like you trying to take it away by using immune creature because it would still work only it would work at half the damage and do you realy want to have to remember what its set to because when it comes to players they are there to play not remember whether thier bow shoots electricity or cold. The +10 was intended to reduce the -20 penalty to trying to remain hidden when shooting (sniping). Wouldn't be surprised if I borked the wording. The elemental damage cooldown was intended to prevent changing in combat every other round. So maybe a 5 min cooldown would surfice. Otherwise they could change at the start (or at least once). Remember, changing elemental type is a bonus people with flaming swords don't get. As for remembering what type - again, they could "change" it at the start if neither one of us can remember what it was last.
zzakk2to2 12-21-06, 10:18 AM	The +10 was intended to reduce the -20 penalty to trying to remain hidden when shooting (sniping). Wouldn't be surprised if I borked the wording. The elemental damage cooldown was intended to prevent changing in combat every other round. So maybe a 5 min cooldown would surfice. Otherwise they could change at the start (or at least once). Remember, changing elemental type is a bonus people with flaming swords don't get. As for remembering what type - again, they could "change" it at the start if neither one of us can remember what it was last. that explains the hide and how about to even to out the elemental when they change it have them roll a DC15 check(add the main stats bonus) and if they fail by 9 or less they take 1 damage and if its failed by 10 or more they take 1d4 damage. every level the character gets the bows DC would be reduced by 1 because they get to know it better.
DracoPhoenix 12-21-06, 06:54 PM	that explains the hide and how about to even to out the elemental when they change it have them roll a DC15 check(add the main stats bonus) and if they fail by 9 or less they take 1 damage and if its failed by 10 or more they take 1d4 damage. every level the character gets the bows DC would be reduced by 1 because they get to know it better. Only problem there is the DC: 15 - main stat (most likely 3 or 4) = 11(12), They'd have to roll a 2 to take one point fo damage and after 2 levels even that wouldn't matter. But its late and I'm tired. So I'm not gonna try guessing a suitable DC. Will think on it though, I know it will be neccessary to limit some effects availability.
zzakk2to2 12-23-06, 10:14 AM	your right thats a bad idea. maybe if you make it a pecentage like 25% or lower they get 1 damage zap and reduce the percentage by 2 every level they have it but when it gets down to 1% leave it so there is always a chance of a zap.