Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pojo 11-03-05, 12:25 PM	I want to know what take anyone has on the rules in the DMG to create magic items (I mean in the back of the book where it just has a listing of formulas and prices). I ask this because of many of the people I play with allow PCs to use those rules in creating what I think are overpowered items (a sword that can cast heal at will, for example). That and they also bend some of the formulas (they say that items can give bonuses to ability scores that are not enchantment bonuses (Luck, insight, etc.) so that they can have multiple bonuses to their ability scores. I try to explain to them that that is incorrect but when they all believe they are right, one voice doesn't make a difference. Could someone please chime in and help me prove my point (or prove me wrong).
Jaid 11-03-05, 01:01 PM	see, your problem is that you are in what tarkin would probably describe as an "anything goes" game (and possibly he would invent a new category just to describe this level of broken). basically, you are correct. they are abusing the item creation rules. however, since the DM is fine with that... well... i hate to break it to you... but the campaign you are in is not intended to be even remotely balanced to normal campaigns. so, you may as well just make yourself a ring of protection from X (4,000 gp) and a ring of lesser vigor (possibly 8,000 gp, can't remember, heal 1 hp/round), and proceed to shamelessly abuse the rest of the item creation rules, because you probably won't have fun unless you are at least as good as the rest of the party. alternatively, you could find a new group. and if you want to play normal D&D, then finding a new group is probably the way to go. i can't imagine they're gonna give up their playing style any time soon. of course, you could always try to get them to change (which it sounds like you have tried and they are not listening), so if you want to play a different way than them, you will probably have to move on.
tarkin 11-03-05, 01:11 PM	You are entirely correct. If they insist on doing that, tell them you want one of the following: a Ring of Cure Minor Wounds, always on (1,000 gp cost using their logic, heals you 1 pt/round for ever) a sword of True Striek always on (2,000 gp cost using their logic, grants +20 to hit for each attack) a headband of Charm Person, at will, upon command, 1,800 gp using their logic a ring of Mage Armor, +4 AC, always on, costs 2,000 gp a shield of Shield spell, +4 AC, always on costs 2,000 gp They are totally clueless if they allow that garbage into a game (unless it is supposed to be an anything Goes, comedy game, played entirely for laughs) If you want a sword that really does healing, you need to get the following: 1) Get a +1 sword (2,315 gp or so) 2) Make it intelligent with at least one lesser power (+1,000 gp) 3) Pick as it's lesser power: Item can use cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) on wielder 3/day (+6,500 gp) So it's total cost is: 9,815 gp, to get Cure Moderate wounds 3/days on wielder ------------- Here are the major mistakes usually made: 1) Thinking that the pricing GUIDELINES (not rules) are for the player to use. No, they are in the Dungeon MASTER'S Guide, not the PHB. They are for the DM. Players may consult them when attempting to design a weapon, but the DM is supposed to only use them as a rough guideline, changing things if they are too cheap. 2) Thinking that you can use the Pricing methods for Wonderous Items (spell level x caster level) for weapons. There are NO +x,000 gp weapon enchantments in the core DMG, instead there are either +x enchantments or special weapons. Unless you are a real expert (as in Dragon/Dungeon/WoTC has paid you real cash for something...) don't try and make a weapon enchantment that is +x,000, instead stick to the regular +x enchantments 3) Thinking that you can 'cheat/game the system' by taking limitations that don't limit you. No. That is wrong and the books say you get no price reduction for it. Prime example is creating a magic item that can only be used by 'your race' and claiming you get a discount for doing it. Or claiming you get a discount of 1/5 for a spell that only happens 1/day but lasts for 8 hours. 4) Ignoring the other formulas and insisting on spell level stuff (I.E. Ignore the fact that armor is armor bonus squared x 1,000 gp, not spell level x caster level x 2,000 gp) 5) Ignoring the fact that existing items are a better price method than a formula. (unlimited healing is based on ring of regeneration, not cure minor wounds always on) 6) Trying to play around with metamagics claiming they don't affect the pricing or level limits.
Tony Vargas 11-03-05, 01:41 PM	The guidelines are there for the DM. If you're the DM, don't let the players use them, at all. I'd suggest two possible ways of handling it: 1) have the player describe what he wants the item to do, and you tell him the cost (no debate), perhaps after requiring time/money or a skill check (arcana or spellcraft) to "research the formula for creating the item." If the cost is higher than the PC expected, you can let him think that he just didn't make the roll by enough to make it 'right.' or 2) the player tells you what spells he's casting and how much he's spending on materials, and you decide what the item actually does (and, if you're mean, don't tell him, just aply any numeric modifiers 'secretly' and describe the effects of using the item). If you're not the DM, and the DM allows it, I'd suggest that you go right ahead and abuse it like everyone else. :D
mvincent 11-03-05, 04:47 PM	I completely agree: the "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" section in the DMG is not balanced. Those tables are meant to simply give some value guidelines to DM's wanting to create new items, but aren't intended to be freely used by PC's (lest players come up with game breaking items like what tarkin mentioned above). Unfortunately, this isn't clearly stated in the rules, and I have to occasionally explain this to players. I don't even allow new items even if they are balanced, as it just opens a big, ugly door best left shut. Even if each item were balanced, the synergistic possibilities from that many new combinations is pretty huge.
Nom 11-03-05, 05:13 PM	Unfortunately, this isn't clearly stated in the rulesDMG pg 282, inset. You'll also notice that section 7 talks about items that "you" (ie the DM) might invent. Item pricing for players is listed under Brew Potion (PH pg 89), Craft Wand (PH pg 92), and Scribe Scroll (PH pg 99). All the other crafting feats simply say that crafting takes 1 day per 1000 gp base price and costs 1/2 price in gp and 1/25 price in XP; other details are the purview of the DM. and I have to occasionally explain this to players.That's a lack of understanding on the part of your players, not the rulebooks. :)
mvincent 11-03-05, 06:13 PM	DMG pg 282, inset. You'll also notice that section 7 talks about items that "you" (ie the DM) might invent.Is there a section from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) with the information you are refering to? Item pricing for players is listed under Brew Potion (PH pg 89), Craft Wand (PH pg 92), and Scribe Scroll (PH pg 99). All the other crafting feats simply say that crafting takes 1 day per 1000 gp base price and costs 1/2 price in gp and 1/25 price in XP; other details are the purview of the DM. That's a lack of understanding on the part of your players, not the rulebooks. :)Are you saying that players should check with the DM before buying any items not listed in the PHB?
Kaboth 11-03-05, 06:29 PM	Well I disagree that things in the DMG are for the DM only mentality. The PrC's are there for PC's to use (with the caveat of DM permission). The main thing to remember, if the item is probably looks too powerful for too cheap, it probably is. There are many things that do fit the rules exactly the DMG lists. Mainly wondrous items fit this aspect the best. In addition, look at the cost of other items that either perform the same or similar functions and if they cost more than what your player has come up with then its busted. (Example, a Ring of Regeneration vs. Ring of Vigor). Technically,if you had enough money you could make a ring of continous heal and they player would only ever really die for a Save or Die spell. Sounds like a bargin in the long. So the ultimate point being is set player made magic items subject to DM approval first. Some spells you might tell a player has a restriction of 3/day and/or a duration set by caster level.
Jaid 11-03-05, 10:01 PM	no one suggested the rules found in the DMG will never be of use to the players. however, the DMG is indeed written to the DM. it is his prerogative to decide if the PrCs found in it are available, and if he does then it is his responsibility to make sure they know about that and that they know their options. similarly, while the PCs may occasionally gain access to information from the DMG item section (for example, when they cast identify on an item would be a good time, or maybe when they want to make an item), access to the rules for designing new magic items is something that only the DM needs, because it is his job to decide how much it will cost, not the player's.
Nom 11-03-05, 10:12 PM	Is there a section from the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) with the information you are refering to?Well, Magic Item Gold Piece Values (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#magicItemGoldPiec eValues) has roughly the same rules, but the DMG rules are written to the 2nd person ("you") while these rules make no reference to the reader. The essence is the same: all values for new items are estimates, the DM must make a judgement call (see 1st and last paragraphs). It also pays to remember that the DMG is "the rules". The SRD is an excerpt that is legal to be published by 3rd parties under the OGL. Are you saying that players should check with the DM before buying any items not listed in the PHB?No. I'm saying that the PH contains rules for pricing potions, wands and scrolls. Pricing of anything else requires a DM judgement call, although recommendations and examples are given in the DMG. It's the same for magic items as for monsters. Just because the MM lists red dragons doesn't mean that red dragons even exist in the game world. The same goes for items. The DMG lists a set of standard items that DM's might like to include, together with recommended prices, plus a bunch of rules of thumb that the DM can use to create and price items not listed. Explicit ("always works like this") formulas only exist for potions, wands and scrolls.
mvincent 11-03-05, 10:19 PM	the DMG is indeed written to the DM. However, the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/) is not, nor is it set up to. It's a safe bet that players have access to (and are using) those rules... as they should in most games, especially when deciding what magic items to buy. access to the rules for designing new magic items is something that only the DM needs, because it is his job to decide how much it will cost, not the player's. Everyone here (so far) is in agreement with that. What is up for contention is how clear that is (to other players) in the rules.
Michael Silverbane 11-03-05, 10:45 PM	Right... As has been said several times before, the magic item pricing guidelines found in the Dungeon Master's Guide and those found in the System Reference Document are, indeed, guidelines, rather than hard and fast rules. One hard and fast rule that is often overlooked in the creation of magic items is that if there are multiple ways to price an ability or bonus, you should use the most expensive way to do so... However, that these rules are meant only for the DM and that he should horde them away like some miser is a gross misconception. The player and the DM should look over the rules for and discuss the creation of any new magic items together, so that the player can gain an understanding of what sorts of things he will be able to accomplish by creating a magic item, and what sorts of sacrifices (in time, money, and experience) his character will have to make in order to do so. Also, this will allow the DM to nip any sort of abusive behavior in the bud, before the magic item creating character can go spreading such seditiousness around to the rest of the group. In this way a proper attitude of cooperation can be maintained. Later silver
Esponer 11-03-05, 10:48 PM	Not advocating breaking the item creation guidelines, some points on tarkin's post: a Ring of Cure Minor Wounds, always on (1,000 gp cost using their logic, heals you 1 pt/round for ever) That does actually break the guidelines. Instantaneous effects can't be continuous. Lesser Vigour does do what you're describing, however, and is a "legitimate" (*coughs*) method. a sword of True Striek always on (2,000 gp cost using their logic, grants +20 to hit for each attack) That's also iffy by the guidelines. It can't be continuous, but arguably it can be use-activated. I've heard that one argued either way a lot. The guidelines are iffy on it. a headband of Charm Person, at will, upon command, 1,800 gp using their logic Yeah, that's one of the possibilities, but considering what you *can* do by abusing the item creation guidelines, that's nothing. The save DC will be pathetic very quickly, so it becomes irrelevant. Anyone who wants to abuse these guidelines will quickly learn to never use anything with a save DC. If you want a sword that really does healing, you need to get the following: 1) Get a +1 sword (2,315 gp or so) 2) Make it intelligent with at least one lesser power (+1,000 gp) 3) Pick as it's lesser power: Item can use cure moderate wounds (2d8+3) on wielder 3/day (+6,500 gp) So it's total cost is: 9,815 gp, to get Cure Moderate wounds 3/days on wielder True, that's the only way to go about it using items in the SRD, but... I'm wary of the idea of completely banning players from the idea of item creation. The items given in the SRD are obviously limited - evident by the fact that any seasoned D&D player has probably seen the same items over and over again. I'm all for variety and more interesting stuff, but with a) better item creation guidelines, b) an overall awareness of the fact that it is all subject to DM's approval. 2) Thinking that you can use the Pricing methods for Wonderous Items (spell level x caster level) for weapons. There are NO +x,000 gp weapon enchantments in the core DMG, instead there are either +x enchantments or special weapons. Unless you are a real expert (as in Dragon/Dungeon/WoTC has paid you real cash for something...) don't try and make a weapon enchantment that is +x,000, instead stick to the regular +x enchantments I can kind of see the point in the way they're going about it though. Several of the special weapons can be confirmed as using exactly this method by subtracting their base weapon price first. It's still the player taking guidelines as absolute rules, but it's not something which is clearly "wrong" - it's probably how it's done in almost all cases, for special weapons. 3) Thinking that you can 'cheat/game the system' by taking limitations that don't limit you. No. That is wrong and the books say you get no price reduction for it. Prime example is creating a magic item that can only be used by 'your race' and claiming you get a discount for doing it. Or claiming you get a discount of 1/5 for a spell that only happens 1/day but lasts for 8 hours. Again, both of these cases are understandable, because the magic item creation guidelines tell you clearly that this is the case. I've made my own items in the past for variety, and I make it a personal rule never to use the "70% price because only my race/class can use it", because it's pretty ridiculous. The rule is there though, stated quite clearly. Guidelines' fault as much as the player's who choose not to realise it's silly. As for spell level * caster level * 1800 / (5/uses per day), that is also completely as it should be via the guidelines and it's as much the guidelines' fault for not protecting against what you're talking about. But I have to point out, casting a spell once per day which lasts most of the day may work out cheaper than having it continuous (spell level * caster level * 2000, or 1000 depending on the exact duration), but it also means one dispel has it out of the way. That is potentially a very major liability. If it's continuous, it's down for just one round. And quite frankly, while it's potentially abusable, I don't see any reason why an item wouldn't be worth significantly less if it was 1/day than if it was at will. 20% of the price for the difference between "whenever you feel like it" and "once per day" is perfectly within the realms of reasonability. I do understand the sort of abuse you're talking about, mind. I hate to sound too much like I'm agreeing with the abuse of the item creation guidelines, but I'm very hesitant to agree with the idea of making the use of it completely taboo. I'd much prefer it if the guidelines were slightly more solid, but there are always going to be certain abuses. The main ones which come to mind: 1. 1st level spells. 1*1 is 1, 9*17 is 153. With each spell level, the price is squared and then nearly doubles on top of that, quickly making high level spells very expensive. But 1*1 is 1. 1st level spells are worth next to nothing, and some of them are very powerful. (True Strike and Lesser Vigour are well known, yes, but let's not forget Entropic Shield, Remove Fear, Ray of Hope (that's a +2 morale bonus to basically everything, for 8000), Eyes of the Avoral, and Omen of Peril at will.) 2. High level spells 1/day with long durations. (Superior Invisibility from Complete Arcane. Its price by the guidelines is a little over 55,000. I need not say any more than this.) 3. Stuff that's just too damn useful, at will. The main problems are Heal, Harm, Wish, and Miracle. Thankfully, Wish is virtually impossible to get your hands on - short of a major cheat using the Book of Exalted Deed's Distilled Joy spell. The others border around the 200,000 limit, and of course people are going to start calling for a 30% price reduction due to race (yada yada) to get under 200,000 if they're above. If the rules could somehow fix these three main abuses, it wouldn't be anywhere near as bad. A few people spending decent amounts on dimensional anchor 1/day. Nothing much to worry about. One hard and fast rule that is often overlooked in the creation of magic items is that if there are multiple ways to price an ability or bonus, you should use the most expensive way to do so... Never read that, and in fact I've read a direct contradiction: that an item is only worth the cheapest possible amount for it. Mentioned in relation to spell effects. If a sorcerer casts it at 8th level, and a bard somehow casts it at 6th, it's worth a 6th level spell.
Traevanon 11-04-05, 08:26 AM	If you want to stick with allowing your players to use the item creation rules (with supervision), all that usually must be done is to require uses per day. Do not allow continuous or on demand powers. Save those for the ones in the DMG and the ones the DM creates. Tell the players flat out that they cant use the 70% rules for their Race/Class and that they are going to have to apply a "Uses per Day" to the item. Also, to take care of many of the remaining abuses, if they are simply copying a spell into an item make it a Rod or a Ring rather than a wondrous item. Players often arent just looking for something that's new. There are plenty of new magic items that get passed over because some old standard item does the job better. Especially when they make their own items they are often looking for an edge. Test this with your players by pricing new original items higher or making them make choices with stacking or slot allocation. If they are truly in it only for the research they will be happy with discovering a method of increasing a sword's resistance to Sundering (for example) while also making it use up one of your Ring slots. Its Gnomish science! I'm not saying they will use the item, but they should be happy with the discovery of a new property.
Rake 11-04-05, 09:07 AM	Your best bet with regards to convincing your fellow party members that the guidelines provided for item creation are, in fact, guidelines, is to check those prices against some of the prices on the magic items in the DMG. A good many of them cost much more than those guidelines would indicate.
Pojo 11-04-05, 12:14 PM	Sadly these campaigns are not just comedy or goof off ones. This is how they play. Not only do they have broken items(depending on the campiagn some things are not allow but thats not saying alot) they give way to much gold. I mean, their characters are defined by their items, not by their abilities. I have yet to dm(mainly becuase I don't have the time) and we have stopped playing for a while (other reasons) and when I plan to dm I will stick to the rules but I think that if I do they will get bored unless I have a stellar campiagn(They are good friends so they won't throw a fit if they don't get their way). Any Ideas on that?
Nom 11-04-05, 06:12 PM	Depends on what you mean by "bored". Some people like a challenge. Some people like to play on "god mode", wading through the hordes with ease. If the latter, then you might be right, however the "game" aspect of such play is much reduced, since there's no real challenge ("Yay, I beat my 3 year old little sister in an arm wrestle. And she was using her left arm!"). However, some people who play "overpowered" rules like the challenges scaled up. At which point, the main difference is that you've made a mess of the CR and XP systems and are dealing with bigger numbers but ultimately playing at a similar "challenge" level. At which point, you merely need to convince them that a 25 point, standard power level game can be just as challenging. Invite them to try it and see. Sometimes it's actually a lot more fun, because when you win you feel like you did it by a combination of luck and skill, not because you had a bigger gun.