Creating magic items and CL confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creating magic items and CL confusion [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Lalkin
05-11-07, 04:45 PM So here I am looking up magic item prereqs for my game. I see to imbue the Animated property to a shield it is CL12 and requires Animate Objects.

I tell my player and they tell me CL isn't a prereq. I point out the rule at DMG215.

Caster Level
The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself.

For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).

The player points out the errata.

Caster Level
Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215
Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster
Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading.
Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the
caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster
level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.

The player uses this to say that he could at 5th level create something a CL 20 item as long as he has the prerequisites.

Now, I may be abnormal but i find the errata to be ambigious and misleading. Not the other way round....

I don't see the sense of a wizard being able to imbue an item with magic much more potent (it higher CL) that he could ever perform normally.

Also, the errata seems to imply that CL is variable. For example Pearls of Power have CL17. By the errata it seems one could create a Pearl of Power (second level) and give it a CL3.

Anyone have some insight to share on this? Am I reading it wrong or what?
tarkin
05-11-07, 04:49 PM The player is not understanding something.

While YES, he can create something that says CL:20, that would NOT change the caster level of the item he created.

The CL listed in the DMG are only guidelines for randomly found magic items.

The caster level of the item he makes can NEVER exceed his own caster level. That is the maximum he can create.
SephDragoon
05-11-07, 04:53 PM To clarify... the items found there are rolled randomly, and that item is found as if a CL 20 wizard created it. If your wizard created it, it would be much lower. However, he is right that he doesn't have to have CL 20 to make the item... it will just have a lower CL.
Lalkin
05-11-07, 05:01 PM hmm.

This adds a lot of complexity to games. So now I have to write down the CL for every magic item created? Because I know for a fact there are no CL20 casters in my game that players have commisioned items from.

Gah.

Why the hell did they change that rule.

Although if you are picky about the wording. where does it specify that you can't set a CL higher than your own. Yes that makes sense logicly but, inmy opinion, this rules change has already violated that...
SephDragoon
05-11-07, 05:16 PM Frankly... in my games, I pretty much abolish all magic item rules dependant on caster level. Yes, this means that Mord's Disjuncture kind of doesn't do exactly what it was meant to, but frankly, none of us liked the way it worked anyways.

I don't see the reason for the CL rules on items anyways. So much could be simplified.
Lalkin
05-11-07, 09:53 PM You know, looking at the errataed rule a little closer. It makes absolutely NO sense.

Take the item Eyes of the Eagle

Eyes of the Eagle
These items are made of special crystal and fit over the eyes of the wearer. These lenses grant a +5 competence bonus on Spot checks. Wearing only one of the pair causes a character to become dizzy and, in effect, stunned for 1 round. Thereafter, the wearer can use the single lens without being stunned so long as she covers her other eye. Of course, she can remove the single lens and see normally at any time, or wear both lenses to end or avoid the dizziness.

Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price 2,500 gp.

This item breaks the rule. The rules clearly states the minimum CL is determined by the prerequitsites. Clairaudience/clairvoyance is a 3rd level spell (CL5) yet the item entry says CL3...... There are numerous items like this.

Decided to flip open the Magic Item Compendium. First item I looked at also breaks this errataed rule.

MIC105, Gloves of Flame. CL5, Prerequisites include Planar Binding (6th level spell so CL11 minimum).

Are you guys sure that the errata is being read correctly because WotC seems to be treating it different than how you and I are reading it....
SephDragoon
05-11-07, 10:33 PM If you want to know something... there is a way to make these items at lower caster level. I think the Artificer gets that ability, to qualify for the prereqs alot earlier. But I don't see why they would make stock items like that, even if players CAN.
Lalkin
05-11-07, 11:36 PM That may make sense if Artificer was a core class and not game-world specific. =)

I have to chuckle that the errata states the change was made to remove confusion and ambiguous wording. They did the exact opposite... :confused:
Merestil Haye
05-12-07, 06:23 AM The Caster Level listed in the item description is not and has never been any form of prerequisite, even before the errata. It's quite plain from the format of the item description.

The line in question is Aura; CL; Prereq 1, Prereq 2, prereq 3...

If the CL were a prerequisite it would be separated from the other prerequisites by a comma, not a semicolon. The amended rules seem quite clear about making this distinction. Further, if CL were in fact a prereq, then the entry for the Spell Storing weapon property prerequisites (to name just one) makes no sense.

The item crafter cannot imbue a property into an item at a higher CL than his own CL. Under no circumstances can he do this. If a character is CL7, then the highest CL he can make the item at is CL7.

The CL isn't important most of the time anyway. It affects only three things; the saving throw bonuses the item would have if it were unattended, the DC of a Dispel check to suppress the magic of the item and the level-dependent parameters (range, duration, and so on) of any spell that the item might cast on activation. The last one is the only one that has any real significance in gameplay; the other two come up so rarely that they can be neglected unless the situation arises. If it does come up, determine the prereqs (remembering to take account funny possibilities such as Neutralise Poison being a 3rd level spell for Druids) and set a CL accordingly. Oh, and remember that in determining the CL, ignore the item crafting feat completely.
Forged_Fury
05-12-07, 09:24 AM Given the two rules examples and the item description for Eyes of the Eagle, it's kind of clear that the item was not created based on the rules (even pre-errata]. There are quite a few in there, with my favorite being Goggles of Minute Seeing with a CL3 and a prereq of true seeing. Is it just me or should the prereq for that item be Detect Secret Doors or something else a little bit less powerful?

Anyway, in my opinion, the real confusion starts when you engage in cooperative magic item creation.

-FF
Nephlite
05-12-07, 10:52 AM If you want to know something... there is a way to make these items at lower caster level. I think the Artificer gets that ability, to qualify for the prereqs alot earlier. But I don't see why they would make stock items like that, even if players CAN.

Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so).
SephDragoon
05-12-07, 10:30 PM Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so).

Um... except, they don't learn spells... so I think you are thinking of this a little differently. They use different means to meet the requirements, or they could never craft a single item.
Nom
05-13-07, 07:36 AM In brief 1: Ignore the listed CL - in 3.5 they're often 'way wrong.

In brief 2: The minimum CL is the minimum CL required to meet any spell or explicit pre-reqs. The maximum CL is your caster level. As a general rule, it's good practice to set the CL to the minimum for the item, unless the PC (or other) pays extra to have it more potent.

Note that some items have an implicit CL. For example, the boots of speed are CL 10 because the effect lasts 10 rounds. The pricing reflects this: 3 * 10 * 2000 / 5 = 12k.
Barron
05-13-07, 09:46 AM I know lots of people who use Artificer in non-eberron games. What exactly about the class (other than appearing in the eberron book) makes the class so "world-speciffic". I can see where classes like Planar sheperd or Blade of House Whatever, but nothing about the artificer strikes me as being "ZOMG, i can't use this class outside of eberron!"
jaelis
05-13-07, 10:05 AM Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so).

First, as we have all noted, caster level isn't a prereq, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Second, it does say they can treat their caster level as +2 higher for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If a 3rd level artificer can make a CL 3 wand of fireballs, I should think he should be able to make a CL 3 Eyes of the Eagle too.

But of course the artificer came later. I think Nom is right, many of the CLs in the DMG are simply wrong. And it hardly matters.
Forged_Fury
05-13-07, 03:05 PM It doesn't matter.

As the crafter of the item, all you have to do is somehow provide the prerequisites (either through mem'd spell, scroll, or even another caster (which is, again, where it gets confusing, in my mind). Having said that, there are some items that do have a hard and fast caster level prerequisite (any magic weapon, armor, bracers of armor and junk like that).

-Forged_Fury
Nephlite
05-13-07, 04:19 PM First, as we have all noted, caster level isn't a prereq, so I'm not sure what you mean.

Second, it does say they can treat their caster level as +2 higher for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If a 3rd level artificer can make a CL 3 wand of fireballs, I should think he should be able to make a CL 3 Eyes of the Eagle too.

But of course the artificer came later. I think Nom is right, many of the CLs in the DMG are simply wrong. And it hardly matters.

Just a note: the Caster of an artificer item is Artificer+2 or the listed minimum which ever is higher.
Not lower. A 3rd level Artificer can't make a CL 3 wand of fireball. It gives it as a specific example.
jaelis
05-13-07, 04:44 PM The artificer's crafting ability is confusing, and I'm happy to admit up front that I could be off base here. But I don't get what you're saying. The ability says:

If an item duplicates a spell effect, however it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level.

and the example says

But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 damage.

That sure sounds to me like the item has CL 3.
Forged_Fury
05-13-07, 08:53 PM Yeah,

For all the good stuff (damage, et al) it is CL 3. For all the bad stuff ($$$) it counts as CL 5. At least that seems apparent to me.

-Forged_Fury

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lalkin 05-11-07, 04:45 PM	So here I am looking up magic item prereqs for my game. I see to imbue the Animated property to a shield it is CL12 and requires Animate Objects. I tell my player and they tell me CL isn't a prereq. I point out the rule at DMG215. Caster Level The next item in a notational entry gives the caster level of the item, indicating its relative power. The caster level determines the item’s saving throw bonus, as well as range or other level-dependent aspects of the powers of the item (if variable). It also determines the level that must be contended with should the item come under the effect of a dispel magic spell or similar situation. This information is given in the form "CL x," where "CL" is an abbreviation for caster level and "x" is an ordinal number representing the caster level itself. For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level). The player points out the errata. Caster Level Dungeon Master’s Guide, page 215 Problem: The last two sentences in the section on Caster Level are ambiguous and potentially misleading. Solution: Replace with this text: For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator. The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given. The player uses this to say that he could at 5th level create something a CL 20 item as long as he has the prerequisites. Now, I may be abnormal but i find the errata to be ambigious and misleading. Not the other way round.... I don't see the sense of a wizard being able to imbue an item with magic much more potent (it higher CL) that he could ever perform normally. Also, the errata seems to imply that CL is variable. For example Pearls of Power have CL17. By the errata it seems one could create a Pearl of Power (second level) and give it a CL3. Anyone have some insight to share on this? Am I reading it wrong or what?
tarkin 05-11-07, 04:49 PM	The player is not understanding something. While YES, he can create something that says CL:20, that would NOT change the caster level of the item he created. The CL listed in the DMG are only guidelines for randomly found magic items. The caster level of the item he makes can NEVER exceed his own caster level. That is the maximum he can create.
SephDragoon 05-11-07, 04:53 PM	To clarify... the items found there are rolled randomly, and that item is found as if a CL 20 wizard created it. If your wizard created it, it would be much lower. However, he is right that he doesn't have to have CL 20 to make the item... it will just have a lower CL.
Lalkin 05-11-07, 05:01 PM	hmm. This adds a lot of complexity to games. So now I have to write down the CL for every magic item created? Because I know for a fact there are no CL20 casters in my game that players have commisioned items from. Gah. Why the hell did they change that rule. Although if you are picky about the wording. where does it specify that you can't set a CL higher than your own. Yes that makes sense logicly but, inmy opinion, this rules change has already violated that...
SephDragoon 05-11-07, 05:16 PM	Frankly... in my games, I pretty much abolish all magic item rules dependant on caster level. Yes, this means that Mord's Disjuncture kind of doesn't do exactly what it was meant to, but frankly, none of us liked the way it worked anyways. I don't see the reason for the CL rules on items anyways. So much could be simplified.
Lalkin 05-11-07, 09:53 PM	You know, looking at the errataed rule a little closer. It makes absolutely NO sense. Take the item Eyes of the Eagle Eyes of the Eagle These items are made of special crystal and fit over the eyes of the wearer. These lenses grant a +5 competence bonus on Spot checks. Wearing only one of the pair causes a character to become dizzy and, in effect, stunned for 1 round. Thereafter, the wearer can use the single lens without being stunned so long as she covers her other eye. Of course, she can remove the single lens and see normally at any time, or wear both lenses to end or avoid the dizziness. Faint divination; CL 3rd; Craft Wondrous Item, clairaudience/clairvoyance; Price 2,500 gp. This item breaks the rule. The rules clearly states the minimum CL is determined by the prerequitsites. Clairaudience/clairvoyance is a 3rd level spell (CL5) yet the item entry says CL3...... There are numerous items like this. Decided to flip open the Magic Item Compendium. First item I looked at also breaks this errataed rule. MIC105, Gloves of Flame. CL5, Prerequisites include Planar Binding (6th level spell so CL11 minimum). Are you guys sure that the errata is being read correctly because WotC seems to be treating it different than how you and I are reading it....
SephDragoon 05-11-07, 10:33 PM	If you want to know something... there is a way to make these items at lower caster level. I think the Artificer gets that ability, to qualify for the prereqs alot earlier. But I don't see why they would make stock items like that, even if players CAN.
Lalkin 05-11-07, 11:36 PM	That may make sense if Artificer was a core class and not game-world specific. =) I have to chuckle that the errata states the change was made to remove confusion and ambiguous wording. They did the exact opposite... :confused:
Merestil Haye 05-12-07, 06:23 AM	The Caster Level listed in the item description is not and has never been any form of prerequisite, even before the errata. It's quite plain from the format of the item description. The line in question is Aura; CL; Prereq 1, Prereq 2, prereq 3... If the CL were a prerequisite it would be separated from the other prerequisites by a comma, not a semicolon. The amended rules seem quite clear about making this distinction. Further, if CL were in fact a prereq, then the entry for the Spell Storing weapon property prerequisites (to name just one) makes no sense. The item crafter cannot imbue a property into an item at a higher CL than his own CL. Under no circumstances can he do this. If a character is CL7, then the highest CL he can make the item at is CL7. The CL isn't important most of the time anyway. It affects only three things; the saving throw bonuses the item would have if it were unattended, the DC of a Dispel check to suppress the magic of the item and the level-dependent parameters (range, duration, and so on) of any spell that the item might cast on activation. The last one is the only one that has any real significance in gameplay; the other two come up so rarely that they can be neglected unless the situation arises. If it does come up, determine the prereqs (remembering to take account funny possibilities such as Neutralise Poison being a 3rd level spell for Druids) and set a CL accordingly. Oh, and remember that in determining the CL, ignore the item crafting feat completely.
Forged_Fury 05-12-07, 09:24 AM	Given the two rules examples and the item description for Eyes of the Eagle, it's kind of clear that the item was not created based on the rules (even pre-errata]. There are quite a few in there, with my favorite being Goggles of Minute Seeing with a CL3 and a prereq of true seeing. Is it just me or should the prereq for that item be Detect Secret Doors or something else a little bit less powerful? Anyway, in my opinion, the real confusion starts when you engage in cooperative magic item creation. -FF
Nephlite 05-12-07, 10:52 AM	If you want to know something... there is a way to make these items at lower caster level. I think the Artificer gets that ability, to qualify for the prereqs alot earlier. But I don't see why they would make stock items like that, even if players CAN. Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so).
SephDragoon 05-12-07, 10:30 PM	Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so). Um... except, they don't learn spells... so I think you are thinking of this a little differently. They use different means to meet the requirements, or they could never craft a single item.
Nom 05-13-07, 07:36 AM	In brief 1: Ignore the listed CL - in 3.5 they're often 'way wrong. In brief 2: The minimum CL is the minimum CL required to meet any spell or explicit pre-reqs. The maximum CL is your caster level. As a general rule, it's good practice to set the CL to the minimum for the item, unless the PC (or other) pays extra to have it more potent. Note that some items have an implicit CL. For example, the boots of speed are CL 10 because the effect lasts 10 rounds. The pricing reflects this: 3 * 10 * 2000 / 5 = 12k.
Barron 05-13-07, 09:46 AM	I know lots of people who use Artificer in non-eberron games. What exactly about the class (other than appearing in the eberron book) makes the class so "world-speciffic". I can see where classes like Planar sheperd or Blade of House Whatever, but nothing about the artificer strikes me as being "ZOMG, i can't use this class outside of eberron!"
jaelis 05-13-07, 10:05 AM	Artificer must meet all requirements and (in addition) the caster level shown (it says so). First, as we have all noted, caster level isn't a prereq, so I'm not sure what you mean. Second, it does say they can treat their caster level as +2 higher for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If a 3rd level artificer can make a CL 3 wand of fireballs, I should think he should be able to make a CL 3 Eyes of the Eagle too. But of course the artificer came later. I think Nom is right, many of the CLs in the DMG are simply wrong. And it hardly matters.
Forged_Fury 05-13-07, 03:05 PM	It doesn't matter. As the crafter of the item, all you have to do is somehow provide the prerequisites (either through mem'd spell, scroll, or even another caster (which is, again, where it gets confusing, in my mind). Having said that, there are some items that do have a hard and fast caster level prerequisite (any magic weapon, armor, bracers of armor and junk like that). -Forged_Fury
Nephlite 05-13-07, 04:19 PM	First, as we have all noted, caster level isn't a prereq, so I'm not sure what you mean. Second, it does say they can treat their caster level as +2 higher for the purpose of meeting prerequisites. If a 3rd level artificer can make a CL 3 wand of fireballs, I should think he should be able to make a CL 3 Eyes of the Eagle too. But of course the artificer came later. I think Nom is right, many of the CLs in the DMG are simply wrong. And it hardly matters. Just a note: the Caster of an artificer item is Artificer+2 or the listed minimum which ever is higher. Not lower. A 3rd level Artificer can't make a CL 3 wand of fireball. It gives it as a specific example.
jaelis 05-13-07, 04:44 PM	The artificer's crafting ability is confusing, and I'm happy to admit up front that I could be off base here. But I don't get what you're saying. The ability says: If an item duplicates a spell effect, however it uses the artificer's actual level as its caster level. and the example says But the scroll's actual caster level is only 3rd, and it produces a weak fireball that deals only 3d6 damage. That sure sounds to me like the item has CL 3.
Forged_Fury 05-13-07, 08:53 PM	Yeah, For all the good stuff (damage, et al) it is CL 3. For all the bad stuff ($$$) it counts as CL 5. At least that seems apparent to me. -Forged_Fury