Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technodemon 01-31-05, 03:48 PM	Ok after reading the "Rules of the Game" article, I still kinda confused. In order to create a magic item from scratch, all I need is the right feat and spells? no craft skill needed?
AdroitMonk 01-31-05, 04:27 PM	Ok after reading the "Rules of the Game" article, I still kinda confused. In order to create a magic item from scratch, all I need is the right feat and spells? no craft skill needed? Depends on what you are making. If you are making magic armor, you need "Craft: Armorer" skill as well as the magical feats and spells. If you are making weapons, you need "Craft: Weaponsmith." If you are making bows, you need "Craft: Bowyer." If you are making a magic potion, you need "Craft: Alchemy." The main reason for this is because making a masterwork item (which an item must be in order to be made magical) requires a Craft skill check. The DC of the skill check is determined by the kind of item, cost of parts, etc.
SALDAR 01-31-05, 04:30 PM	Correct. All you need to do is buy the item you are going to enchant. If you are going to make a longsword +1 of speed, you don't have to be able to craft the sword, you could simply buy one from a weaponsmith for 315gp (15gp for the sword and 300gp for masterwork). What is needed in this case is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, the Haste spell, and the highest appropriate caster level if working alone, in this case the Speed special ability requires a person to cast the haste spell at a caster level of 7, which is higher than the feat's caster level of 5. Although, if you work with another person you could fulfill the CL5 for the feat and they could fulfill the CL7 for the spellcasting.
AdroitMonk 01-31-05, 04:45 PM	Correct. All you need to do is buy the item you are going to enchant. If you are going to make a longsword +1 of speed, you don't have to be able to craft the sword, you could simply buy one from a weaponsmith for 315gp (15gp for the sword and 300gp for masterwork). What is needed in this case is the Craft Magic Arms and Armor feat, the Haste spell, and the highest appropriate caster level if working alone, in this case the Speed special ability requires a person to cast the haste spell at a caster level of 7, which is higher than the feat's caster level of 5. Although, if you work with another person you could fulfill the CL5 for the feat and they could fulfill the CL7 for the spellcasting. That's one way around it, yes. However, then you are just enchanting the item, not creating it. If you want to be a one-stop shop for "making magical items", as opposed to just "making items magical", you must have both the feats and the craft skills. This way, you don't have to worry about finding a merchant or other player with the skills you lack.
technodemon 01-31-05, 05:47 PM	Right, like when your on an adventure and your in area where there are no shops to be found and you need to create something quick. The other is creating robes, capes and cloaks, which skill need it to craft? Even though items are found, depending on DM and/or module, the actual crafting does comes in place if the stuff you need at that moment.
SALDAR 02-01-05, 11:18 AM	Right, like when you’re on an adventure and you’re in area where there are no shops to be found and you need to create something quick. The other is creating robes, capes and cloaks, which skill need it to craft? Even though items are found, depending on DM and/or module, the actual crafting does comes in place if the stuff you need at that moment. Unfortunately the crafting rules and the need for high quality items (masterwork in the case of weapons, armor, and some other items) to enchant do not normally allow “quick” crafting, although you can increase the DC to do it more quickly and use masterwork artisan’s tools (+2 to craft checks). But in answer to your question, if you were in a situation where manufactured items are not available for purchase of course you would have to craft them using the appropriate craft skill. You would also need the necessary materials, such as 105gp worth of materials to make the masterwork sword mentioned in my previous post, and artisan’s tools to craft the item, although the tools could be improvised giving a –2 to the check. Note also that each Craft skill requires its own set of tools. You cannot craft a sword using a weaver’s loom. As for robes, cloaks, and capes I would use Craft (Weaving) to create cloth from scratch, if necessary, and Craft (Seamstress or Tailor) to make clothing from available cloth. I would also consider these items to be at least high quality items (DC 15 to craft), if not superior (DC 20), depending on the item being created. If it were a major magical item I would definitely require a superior item.
Tee-drake 02-02-05, 01:32 PM	Remember that it cost exp to make a magic armor. It depends on the armor(you can see under the item description). You can't make iron weapons if you don't have fire and so on. It recuire time to make things.
technodemon 02-07-05, 04:18 PM	Another question is if you had a way to add a wand to a spear, shortpear or medium-sized pole-arm weapon; would that item still be a wand, a polearm or niether? Or could you add or "imbue" an offensive spell into a weapon like fireball or magic missile? Would it be possible?
ninja1 02-07-05, 04:23 PM	As for robes, cloaks, and capes I would use Craft (Weaving) to create cloth from scratch, if necessary, and Craft (Seamstress or Tailor) to make clothing from available cloth.Don't forget the Profession: Farmer to till the soil, plant the seads, reap the cotton.... Knowledge: agriculture.... oh forget it. :D
roonechr 02-07-05, 06:27 PM	Or could you add or "imbue" an offensive spell into a weapon like fireball or magic missile? Would it be possible? You can do this using the rules for item creation on p.285 in the DMG. As an example to add the ability to cast fireball once a day from a sword would require CL 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor and fireball, and would cost 3 x 5 x 1800 x 2 divided by 5 or 10,800 gp.
roonechr 02-07-05, 06:36 PM	Anyone who has actually created an item will have realized that it is much easier to buy an item and enhance it than to craft it yourself. To create a suit of masterwork full plate requires you to make DC18 checks until you get to 1500 gp. and DC 20 Craft Checks until you get to 150 gp. If you have a Craft bonus of +10 and take 10 on your checks that will take you over 45 weeks. To make that full plate into full plate +1 requires one day.
Lord Schpungus 02-07-05, 06:37 PM	As an example to add the ability to cast fireball once a day from a sword would require CL 5th, Craft Magic Arms and Armor and fireball, and would cost 3 x 5 x 1800 x 2 divided by 5 or 10,800 gp. It would actually be 3 x 5 x 1800 x 1 divided by 5, or 5,400 gp. Since it's spell level x caster level x 1800 x times per day / 5. Unless I'm missing something. 10,800 gp would be twice a day.
roonechr 02-07-05, 07:46 PM	It is doubled because being part of a weapon it has no space limitation.
Naeron 02-08-05, 06:34 AM	It is doubled because being part of a weapon it has no space limitation. It shouldn't be doubled because it does have a space limitation - the weapon must be wielded.
roonechr 02-08-05, 12:25 PM	"Weapon" is not one of the body slots given on page 214 of the DMG. Weapons are much easier to switch than a cloak or boots and effectively take up no slot. A spell added to a weapon is more valuable than one that takes up another slot. I would argue that this justifies doubling the cost. Even if you don't see it that way I would also say that adding a spell to a weapon creates an item with "multiple different abilities" as outlined on DMG p.282 and therefore the spell ability's cost should be multiplied by 1.5. Of course the only weapon in the DMG that has a straight spell ability, flame tongue, appears to charge the normal price for a 3rd level caster of scorching ray, so perhaps I am wrong.
Schmendrick 02-08-05, 04:46 PM	"Weapon" is not one of the body slots given on page 214 of the DMG. Weapons are much easier to switch than a cloak or boots and effectively take up no slot. A spell added to a weapon is more valuable than one that takes up another slot. I would argue that this justifies doubling the cost. Even if you don't see it that way I would also say that adding a spell to a weapon creates an item with "multiple different abilities" as outlined on DMG p.282 and therefore the spell ability's cost should be multiplied by 1.5. Of course the only weapon in the DMG that has a straight spell ability, flame tongue, appears to charge the normal price for a 3rd level caster of scorching ray, so perhaps I am wrong. A sword that casts fireball costs the same as the sword would plus what a [slotless] wondrous item that casts fireball 1/day would, and it requires Craft Wondrous Item. Essentially, you're just imbuing the Wondrous ability of Fireball 1/day into the sword, which, having no other Wondrous abilities, is nonmagical for purposes of the calculation. Craft Magic Arms & Armor is different from Craft Wondrous Item; the types of enchantment are very different. Now, I'm not entirely sure about rings (or, for that matter, rods)... they've always confused me.
roonechr 02-08-05, 06:31 PM	Although it makes sense that you would need Craft Wondrous Item to add spell abilities to weapons there are several examples in the DMG (flame tongue, dagger of venom, javelin of lightning, mace of terror) of weapons which have abilities similar to spells but do not have Craft Wondrous Item as a prerequsite. The best example is flame tongue which is a +1 flaming burst long sword that can cast scorching ray at caster level 3rd 1/day. It is priced at exactly 2,160 more than a +1 flaming burst longsword would normally cost. This means that you pay 2 x 3 x 1800/5 = 2160 for scorching ray.
Kinghappo 02-09-05, 03:58 AM	heres something that always got me, how come we can get the feat "Craft magic arms and armor" but craft "weaponsmithing" and "armorsmithing" and "leather working" ect are needed for each weapon. one would think that if you can get one of them together you should be abe to get the other... and thats my two silver pieces...
roonechr 02-09-05, 10:30 AM	The "Craft Magic Arms and Armor" feat represents a magic user's ability to imbue items with magical power. Apparently this process is similar for weapons and armor. Since there is no magic in the real world we can't ever be sure why it takes only one feat to get both. I would suspect that it has to do with game balance and making the feat as useful as the other Item Creation feats. We do know that the Craft skills represent very different real world processes. Tanning leather is not anything like forging steel. as I pointed out, a a magic itme creator you are much better off buying the base item than trying to create it yourself. Also, from a game mechanics standpoint skill points are more plentiful than feats.
Schmendrick 02-09-05, 02:42 PM	I've always thought that if a character is willing to invest both the skill points in Craft (X) and the feat slot on an item creation feat, there should be some sort of bonus. In the RAW, all that the char gains is a little discount on the item's price (trivial next to the enchantment cost) -- and, FWIW, crafting time is basically ignored (since you can enchant and craft at the same time, your craft/enchant times overlap), but this is hardly a bonus; it's the lack of a penalty. I'm curious: who's made house rules for this?
roonechr 02-09-05, 03:25 PM	FWIW, crafting time is basically ignored (since you can enchant and craft at the same time, your craft/enchant times overlap), First, I don't think you can enchant and craft at the same time. Although the rules for the Craft skill don't specifically state that your week's work requires full attention to the job it is implied (if you try to earn money by a trade it does state per week of "dedicated work"). However, the Item Creation feats do specify that you spend 8 hours a day working on it. I suppose you could argue that you spend 8 hours a day using the Item Creation feat and 8 hours using the Craft skill but this is hardly realistic. Also there is the fact that the base item is a prerequisite for the Item Creation feat, meaning that you must have it in hand before you begin Item Creation. You can't enchant an item that does not exist. Second, even if you could work simultaneously it doesn't save you much time since timeframes for the Craft skill are generally so much longer than those for Item Creation feats. Item Creation feats require 1 day per 1000 gp of value. If you have a Craft bonus of +10 and take 10 on your checks (the minimum result to craft a DC 20 masterwork component) you would need 25 weeks per 1000 gp value. You would have to add 50,000 gp worth of enchantments to a sword to equal the time spent crafting the masterwork weapon itself.
Schmendrick 02-09-05, 03:51 PM	First, I don't think you can enchant and craft at the same time. <snip> Also there is the fact that the base item is a prerequisite for the Item Creation feat, meaning that you must have it in hand before you begin Item Creation. You can't enchant an item that does not exist. This is specifically addressed in, at least, rules for golem creation (IIRC. It may have been 3.0, but I'm pretty sure you can still do it in 3.5); you can craft and enchant at the same time. Second, even if you could work simultaneously it doesn't save you much time since timeframes for the Craft skill are generally so much longer than those for Item Creation feats. Item Creation feats require 1 day per 1000 gp of value. If you have a Craft bonus of +10 and take 10 on your checks (the minimum result to craft a DC 20 masterwork component) you would need 25 weeks per 1000 gp value. You would have to add 50,000 gp worth of enchantments to a sword to equal the time spent crafting the masterwork weapon itself. No, because the 1000+ value is for the enchantment, not the item. Example: Making a +3 quarterstaff 18000 gp enchantment (18 days, flat) 0 staff ("free") 300 gp Masterwork (however long it takes you to craft; say 3 weeks = 21 days) It takes you 21 days to make the q.staff.
SALDAR 02-09-05, 04:10 PM	From the SRD on creating magic items: Magic Armor: He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the armor or the pieces of the armor to be assembled. Magic Weapons: She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the weapon or the pieces of the weapon to be assembled. Rings: He also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a ring or the pieces of the ring to be assembled. Rods: To create a magic rod, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a rod or the pieces of the rod to be assembled. Staff: To create a magic staff, a character needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being a staff or the pieces of the staff to be assembled. Wands: To create a magic wand, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a baton or the pieces of the wand to be assembled. Wondrous Items: She also needs a supply of materials, the most obvious being the item itself or the pieces of the item to be assembled. So, the item or the pieces of the item to be assembled are required. It doesn’t say the materials for the item it says the item or the parts of the item. Therefore the item must be crafted and in hand, whether whole or in parts, before the magical item creation process begins. You cannot do both at once.
roonechr 02-09-05, 04:39 PM	No, because the 1000+ value is for the enchantment, not the item. I was just making an example of time relative to cost. To make a 1,000 gp mundane item would take 25 weeks. To make 1,000 gp magic one would take one day. Example: Making a +3 quarterstaff 18000 gp enchantment (18 days, flat) 0 staff ("free") 300 gp Masterwork (however long it takes you to craft; say 3 weeks = 21 days) It takes you 21 days to make the q.staff. You aren't doing the math. To make the 300 gp masterwork component of that quarterstaff in three weeks you would have to get an average Craft check of 50. 20 (DC for Mwk component) x 50 (avg Craft check ) = 1000 silver pieces 1000 silver/week = 100 gold/week = 3 weeks to get to 300 gold. To get the average Craft check of 50 needed to do this you would have to have a Craft bonus of +40. Good luck with that. Crafting masterwork items takes a whole heck of lot longer than creating magic ones until you are at the very high levels it takes to have a +40 Craft check. At that point, would you really spend even one extra day to save 150gp?
Schmendrick 02-09-05, 05:13 PM	You aren't doing the math. To make the 300 gp masterwork component of that quarterstaff in three weeks you would have to get an average Craft check of 50. 20 (DC for Mwk component) x 50 (avg Craft check ) = 1000 silver pieces 1000 silver/week = 100 gold/week = 3 weeks to get to 300 gold. To get the average Craft check of 50 needed to do this you would have to have a Craft bonus of +40. Good luck with that. My math was a bit off, but not as far as you suggest; I was thinking MW components were 25, and assumed a craft bonus high enough to get it reliably (i.e., a bit more than +15). That crafts more around 700sp/week. In any case, if your craft check is +20 (which is not difficult at all) you can craft a MW component at the rate of 900sp/week by simply taking 10. Crafting the MW component isn't a huge issue. Crafting masterwork items takes a whole heck of lot longer than creating magic ones until you are at the very high levels it takes to have a +40 Craft check. At that point, would you really spend even one extra day to save 150gp? That was my point. Even if you do allow simultaneous crafting/enchanting (which I'm still pretty sure is allowed), the Craft skill is hardly useful. I think the Craft skills are mostly underpowered anyway, but to say that a Wizard with maxed ranks in Craft(Bladesmith... or whatever) and Craft Magic Arms & Armor isn't going to have some edge over one who just has the feat seems rather wrong. Because it's cool to have a magic weapon (or whatever) that you really made "from scratch". I've seen rulings for lowering the enchantment cost (for "familiarity" with the item) and such.. I was just wondering what other house rules have been made for this. edit: said "day" when I meant "week"
roonechr 02-09-05, 06:22 PM	In any case, if your craft check is +20 (which is not difficult at all) you can craft a MW component at the rate of 900sp/week by simply taking 10. Crafting the MW component isn't a huge issue. Masterwork DC is 20. If you take 10 and get a result of 30 you make 600sp per week. It takes you five weeks to craft that quarterstaff. That's 17 extra days of work to save 150gp. That was my point. Even if you do allow simultaneous crafting/enchanting (which I'm still pretty sure is allowed), the Craft skill is hardly useful. I think the Craft skills are mostly underpowered anyway, but to say that a Wizard with maxed ranks in Craft(Bladesmith... or whatever) and Craft Magic Arms & Armor isn't going to have some edge over one who just has the feat seems rather wrong. In that case we agree - Craft skills are not really worth it. I don't think that they are "underpowered" however. They represent a trade and are there primarily for use by NPCs. Generally PCs are adventurers, not blacksmiths.
Beamup 02-09-05, 06:25 PM	Masterwork DC is 20. If you take 10 and get a result of 30 you make 600sp per week. It takes you five weeks to craft that quarterstaff. That's 17 extra days of work to save 150gp. No, you increase the DC by 10 to 30, and so you make 900 sp per week.
roonechr 02-09-05, 07:14 PM	No, you increase the DC by 10 to 30, and so you make 900 sp per week. Ah-hah. Still takes too long :D
Schmendrick 02-10-05, 02:52 PM	In that case we agree - Craft skills are not really worth it. I don't think that they are "underpowered" however. They represent a trade and are there primarily for use by NPCs. Generally PCs are adventurers, not blacksmiths. Well, "underpowered" probably wasn't the best use of words. It's one thing to have a "less adventuring" skill (like Profession or Craft or, let's face it, Perform for anybody but a bard) for RP value, but Craft is one RP thing that should have more "play" benefits, IMO. Especially if you're a magic item creator (which is a misnomer w/out Craft -- then you're just a "magic item enchanter", and that doesn't sound quite as active/exciting).
Zherog 02-10-05, 03:20 PM	If you are making a magic potion, you need "Craft: Alchemy." This is simply, and completely, untrue.
eRaz0r 02-10-05, 04:44 PM	Don't even get me started on the broken-ness of the Craft Skills. Not only are they useless to an adventurer, the rules for them aren't realistic enough to be usable for NPC craftsmen. Short answer - don't bother with the Craft rules for magic item creation. Assume that the time to enchant the item includes time for making it if you wish - it'll be easier. Shorter Answer. Once your wizards get Fabricate, you don't have to worry about it. Does anyone care to hear why Craft is broken ? I could elucidate if there's interest.