Post/Author/DateTime	Post
R2Keen2 04-11-06, 04:58 PM	I'm looking to create a shield that functions with a few different abilities but they are all listed under Specific weapons so theres not really a breakdown of how to calculate the price. Lions Shield is a +2 Heavy Steel Shield with a special ability for 9,170gp Spined Shield is +1 Heavy Steel for 5,580 Variable Shield (3e so price might be wrong after update) is ... variable? though is says usually +1 light steel so i think thats the base item, for 6,560 To calculate how much it would cost to add thier features to a single item would you subtract the relavent features from them? And the other question is since some abilities arn't givin with +1 or etc such as Acid Reistance, does that mean you could technicly add them to a Shield of Heavy Fortification and still have only a +5 Shield? Or is any shield costing as much as a +11 shield considered epic?
Dalthbar 04-11-06, 05:07 PM	I'm not good at pricing things because I don't have the formula memorized, but it's usually a "very bad" idea to find special ability costs by subtracting everything else. This usually leaves you with very, very cheap prices for potentially powerful abilities. As for the latter question, the gold-only abilities do not add to the weapon ability's max of +10. I haven't seen anything in the text, so you could "technically" have a bunch of these on an item and have it still be only +1. However, this is a DM call and should be limited as gold is typically really easy to come by (esp at high levels - 2k is a lot at 1st level, but nothing at 15th).
R2Keen2 04-11-06, 07:47 PM	I agree 500 seems very cheap, but how do you come up with a better way of calulating it? If they added the same numbers together, why is subtraction not working. Anyone got a theory on calculating the price of abilities only really found on Specific Items.
risner 04-11-06, 11:34 PM	I'm looking to create a shield that functions with a few different abilities but they are all listed under Specific weapons so theres not really a breakdown of how to calculate the price. Lions Shield is a +2 Heavy Steel Shield with a special ability for 4,670gp Spined Shield is +1 Heavy Steel for 2,740 Variable Shield (3e so price might be wrong after update) is ... variable? though is says usually +1 light steel so i think thats the base item, for 3,360 To calculate how much it would cost to add thier features to a single item would you subtract the relavent features from them? So like Lion's Shield.. +2 costs 4,000gp; 150 for Masterwork; 20 for the Heavy Shield.. the price to add the quality to a shield would then be 500gp assuming it met the other qualities? And the other question is since these abilities arn't givin with +1 or etc, does that mean you could technicly add them to a Shield of Heavy Fortification and still have only a +5 Shield? Or is any shield costing as much as a +11 shield considered epic? I think you are confused, lets take Lion's Shield: 9170 gp -170gp MW Heavy Steel Shield -4000gp +2 Shield ------- 5000 gp So instead of 500 gp, the cost of the lion head ability is 5000gp. +3 Shield cost 9000gp, so they value the Lion Head strike equal to a +1 ability. To answer your question about adding it to a Shield of Heavy F (a +5 ability), it would make the shield a +6 shield. You also have the cost of the Spinned shield wrong, it costs 5580 gp. 5580-170-1000=4410 gp (or slightly more than a +2 ability)
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 12:34 AM	Well in my games, we do two things. One if we are just trying to increase the item you just subtract the other things from what the new item would cost. Then take the cost of the things you can price and add the pluses just like it mentions in the book. For the stacking specific weapons or shields and armor I just take the base price as the most expensive item. Then I take double the total base price of the other items and add it to the cost. So in other words I treat adding the specific abilities and such things as special research that costs lots of money. My players sometimes find double the price worth it, sometimes they don't. But it works out rather nicely as far as I'm concerned.
R2Keen2 04-12-06, 11:17 AM	I think you are confused, lets take Lion's Shield: 9170 gp -170gp MW Heavy Steel Shield -4000gp +2 Shield ------- 5000 gp So instead of 500 gp, the cost of the lion head ability is 5000gp. +3 Shield cost 9000gp, so they value the Lion Head strike equal to a +1 ability. To answer your question about adding it to a Shield of Heavy F (a +5 ability), it would make the shield a +6 shield. You also have the cost of the Spinned shield wrong, it costs 5580 gp. 5580-170-1000=4410 gp (or slightly more than a +2 ability) Oh alright, i thought the enchantments and stuff were part of the base price, not the market price. the armor spikes are then enchanted versions so its a +1 ability to the spikes and so wouldn't effect the +AC enchancement bonus. Numbers definitly look better now. So Variable would be based on 6,560gp.. how do you think that breaks down? +2 enchancement (+1 and +1), small steel shield; leaves 2,401gp from seemingly no where. Variable is 3e so its also possible the numbers are off to begin with. Next question.. if you have say a +1 Sword can it be both Flaming and Ghost Touch at the cost of +3 but without the sword being +2? Are Shield spikes the same metal as the item or would i be paying extra for them to be mithril as well? iF so i may just make them adamantine, but would i be paying 3,000gp for the cost?
Centerpoint 04-12-06, 12:42 PM	Yes, you could add the Ghost Touch and Flaming qualities to a sword with a +1 enhancement bonus and have the final result be the equivalent of a +3 weapon as far as market value is concerned. That shield question is a little too technical for me, I could see strong arguments for and against.
tarkin 04-12-06, 01:09 PM	There are basically three ways to reverse engineer the prices for weapons and armor: 1) Treat them as seperate qualities that do not interact. Subtract out the stuff you don't want, the rest is a +x,000 gp cost for the property you want. This is the cheapest method. Usually it is unfair, because powers interact. + 5 weapon with Flaming is more valuable than two separte weapons, one +5, the other flaming, because the +5 makes it more likely that you will hit, and thus do flaming damage, and the flaming makes the hit you got from +5 more valuable. 2) Subtract out the known stuff and treat the rest as the next lowest price +Z benefit, with an add on of X,000 gp. This price tends to be very cheap. 3) Subtract out the known stuff and treat the rest as a the next highest weapon/armor +Z bonus with a subtraction of Y,000 gp, and a rule that it can only be applied to weapons of at least as much. This price is the fairest I have found. It rarely makes something underpriced. For the Lion's Shield, it is a +2 shield with other powers. Price for a +2 shield is 4,000 gp. Method 1 and Method 2 (because the price is so cheap) Prices the Lion's other powers at a set value of 500 gp. This is ridiculously cheap. Only a Power Gamer would even consider it. Making a +3 version would be 9,670 gp, using these methods. Method 3 prices the Lion Shields other powers at a cost of: +1, with a discount of 4,500 gp, limit of at least +2 base item. Making a +3 version would be 11,500. That is a significant price increase.
R2Keen2 04-12-06, 01:37 PM	Well we've broken down Lion's and Spined, Variable is the next challange. My numbers in the first post were wrong, since i was using the creation cost. Fixed them now though Lion's Shield 9,170gp - Market Price - 20gp - Heavy Steel Shield - 150gp - Masterwork Quality -------------------- 9,000gp - Which is equal to a +3 enchancement and since the shield is +2, that makes lion's a +1 bonus. Spined Shield 5,580gp - Market Price - 20gp - Heavy Steel Shield - 150gp - Masterwork(Shield) - 10gp - Shield Spikes - 300gp - Masterwork(Spike) -------------------- 5,100gp -4,000gp - (+1 Enchancement to AC, +1 Shield Ability) -1,000gp - (+1 Weapon Enhancement, half price since its only added when a spike is fired?) theres 100gp left over but it still seems like a fair price. So my Shield would cost as a +3 Shield with a partial +1 Weapon Bonus. Adding Variable is the next goal. Its from the Arms and Equipment Guide if someone happens to know of a 3.5 version please post. Variable Shield 6,560gp - Market Price - 150gp - Masterwork - 9gp - Light Steel Shield --------------- 6,401 -1,000gp for +1 AC enchancment means theres obviously room for it to be a +1 bonus ability but leaves 2,401gp even after that possiblity. And the ability couldn't be +2 since the shield is only +1. Maybe it would be clearer with the 3e item creation rules on hand but i don't have them.
Mist of Shadows 04-12-06, 08:25 PM	Honestly guys the best way is to have the weapon you want have to be at least as powerful as the specific item. Then just multiply the base price by two for the other specific item you want to include. It still comes other as rather cheap for what some of the items do. Treat the strange nature of the specific weapons as a non plus enchantment and more on with your research. For example take mythral celestial rhino armor The armor needs to be at least +3 So use the price in the book for the celestial armor because it's the most expensive. Take the 22,400 (half) + 12,550 gp add the 4150 for mythral chain mail then add in the 5,165 gp + 2665 plus 200 xp for the Rhino hide. For about 35,730 you have a suit of plus three chainmail with a max dex bonus of 10 , 0 armor check penalty (actually could add something like thistledown to come out at 0 with no spell failure check, a spell failure chance of 5% (or 0%) So you get a plus 8 to ac for 35,730 A set of braciers gives you 5 ac for 36,000 or 6 for 49,000 You don't have a have a dex mod max and it works against touch attacks but your armor is cheaper. You also do 2d6 more on a charge. For 35,750 doesn't seem that much really. Now if I had subtracted out all of the other abilities it seems way to cheap. Subtracting out things. Market price on a celestials armor 22,400 11200 for the base price - 9000 for the plus 3 part so 2200 is the cost for the flight and the better dex and such things. there is a 12,550 cost listed so we have to add that. Add in the 4150 for the mythral chain not magic same price. 5165 - 4000 + 2665 rhino's armor So 22730 +1000 (for the +1) so 23,730 by subtracting out the costs. So you get some armor that does interesting things for a fraction of what it's worth. The market value of that would be twice as much. or 45,460 for a plus 6 to ac. market price of braciers is 36,000 for +6 I don't know just being too add on the special stuff seems rather cheap to me. I like having it cost more to add more then one special item together.
R2Keen2 04-12-06, 08:35 PM	Oh no, i'm not adding the abilities later, i'm looking to forge the shield at one time with all the bonuses. Spined and Lions definitly seem directly related to the item crafting process because of the detail required. Variable less so since its a use activated enlarge/shink. I want to know the price of the ability because its going to be on the shield from the begining, so i need to know the cost of the ability itself, not so much what it would take to add it on to an existing shield which i agree would definitly cost more. Theres still the question of the Variable Shield breakdown, or if a shield possibly exists in 3.5 material with a different price but the same feature. also Shield Spikes, are they considered part of the shield or would it cost extra for them to be mithril? And if it cost extra would it be the weapon price or some medium between weapon and ammunition? EDIT: Variable Shield 6,560gp - Market Price - 150gp - Masterwork - 9gp - Light Shield -1,000gp - +1 Enchancement ------------------- 5,401 = Command Word(1,800gp) * Spell Level(1) * Caster Level(3rd)
Mist of Shadows 04-13-06, 01:52 PM	I got it about you wanting to design the abilites in at the start. I still think they should cost more then just what's left after taking out the other stuff. It's one of those the sum of the parts is worth more then the parts things. for example a cold sword isn't worth as much as a cold sword that can put out any fire it is put into. However you need the cold sword part of the enchantment to be there. So you can't really just subtract it out and have the price for a sword that puts out fires. But hey if you want to just edit out the price then by all means grab a calculator and some paper and cut appart the weapons and armor.