Post/Author/DateTime	Post
koeneboen 01-02-07, 08:16 AM	i want to create magical equipment as a rune priest. finally i leveled to level 8 so now can i produce permanent runes, but already have the feat create wonderous item feat. so i wonder after a small study: why should i make permanent magical equipment with runes?? they cost the same ammount of xp en gold (and time doesn't matter) as the creation feats. runes can be disabeled en dispeled permanent and other normal magical items only temporary. am i wrong? or what are your thoughts about it? thanks koen
ronyon 01-02-07, 03:54 PM	Runes use the Spell Level X Caster Level formulas that are guidelines in the DMG, only with Runes, These arent guidelines these are the RULES. So a Perma-Rune of True Strike or CLW or whatever else , is dirt cheap, for what it does. Wonderous Items must first look to the pre-existing Items as the standard, and this often snuffs out the uberbargians that the Spell Level X Caster Level formula offers. Add in the speed of crafting runes(Always the same-10 minutes(?) I think), and the higherlevel ablity of affecting anyone who even LOOKS at them and they can be really crazy. There are some real limitations, mostly having to do with their offensive use, but they still rock. If you find your self unsure what Rune to make , I suggest starting with a Rune of Memomic Enhancer. This will give access to all your 3rd and lower spells, as many times as you want.Broken? Yeah. But no more a stretch than a scribing Scroll of the same thing. Its so good ,and so airtight, your DM will want to shoot you, so play dumb, and dont get too upst if he nerfs it up a little.
tarkin 01-02-07, 04:10 PM	Rule 0 says the DM can still over-rid any other rules. You still need to price things fairly, which means sometimes ignoring the rune rules and doing what the Guidelines say. Expect most DM to laugh at the idea that a Permanent True Strike Rune is in some way more fair or more "RAW" than a Permanent True Stike Wonderous Item. Rune rules are in fact just as much guidelines as Wonderous Item rules. --------------------------------- But the speed of making Runes is a real benefit, something you can actually expect your DM to use If you want to make magic items fast, use Runes.
risner 01-02-07, 11:00 PM	Runes use the Spell Level X Caster Level formulas that are guidelines in the DMG, only with Runes, These arent guidelines these are the RULES. Unless you are saying some 3rd party book made that rule, you are incorrect. Runes use the same item creation rules as any other item: Based on Similar Items Based on Similar Powered Items Based on Chart (SLxCLxY,YYY gp)
ronyon 01-04-07, 11:46 AM	Well I am AFB right now, but I my memory tells me that the rules for creating Runes do not reference the DMG guidelines for item creation, and make no mention of the formulas that are presented as being "guidelines" If I am correct,(and I could be wrong) the rules for Runes are no more "guidelines" then the rules for Scrolls,Wands, or Potions. Are they more easily abused? Yes, but only due to a specific Class Feature, that allows Perma and Charges-Per-Day Runes to be made in the first place. Lets look at the Rune Circle by comparision. It has listed formulas,and is permanent , but pointedly calls for the DM to adjudicate Rune Circle prices on a case by case basis.The Rune rules have been through two editions. Why wasnt a simular caution inserted? Can a DM 0 Runes? Of course. DM can always Nerf the broken thing.But in any game that has DDM Persitant, or some other cheese , I think the Rune As Written, stands heads and shoulders above the fray. They arent FREE, yah know.They cost a lotta cash, require Craft checks and and they are fragile.Their direct offensive role is limited, and even a Perma-Rune takes a standard action to purposfully activate,with only a limited duration to its effect.Each Rune needs its own item, unless said item is Large.All choices about casting the spell must be made at the time of creation.Above all they are poorly understood, leading to discussions like this, only with the DM-rarely a good thing. Now if the DM wants to Nerf them, fine. I just think the player should get a chance to redo his character, seeing as one of the main Class Features is being nerfed.When I play any class, I point out its questionable advantages to my DM beforehand.I accept any nerfs without arguing,and decide for myself if I still want to play said class. I also expect that nerfs will be handed out even handedly, with no class/or player getting cheese, wilst me and mine have none. If that fails to happen, I just dont play.
risner 01-04-07, 06:09 PM	Well I am AFB right now, but I my memory tells me that the rules for creating Runes do not reference the DMG guidelines for item creation If the write up on Runes specifically says "this is not a created item" or "do not use the DMG item creation rules" or something similar, you may have something. Otherwise, unless it specifically says they are like Scrolls, you still are bound by the item creation rules in the DMG. No way around it. Those rules base the price on similar items and power first. If you disagree with this post, post book/page numbers to assert your position.
ronyon 01-06-07, 04:37 PM	If the write up on Runes specifically says "this is not a created item" or "do not use the DMG item creation rules" or something similar, you may have something. Otherwise, unless it specifically says they are like Scrolls, you still are bound by the item creation rules in the DMG. No way around it. Those rules base the price on similar items and power first. First I must correct myself and point out that the rules that case this contention are not the basic Rune rules, but rather the Runecaster Prc rules. That said... New Magic Items are a varient rule(DMG,bottem of page 214). Use them if you wish, but I have noted no refence to them in the text of any Item Creation feat.No "if you are using the New Magic Items varient rule, you can chose this feat and it follows said rules". Lets look at some relavent text. Magic Item Gold Piece Values Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to match the new item to an item that is already priced that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Price Values. Good, but lets examine the DMG: BEHIND THE CURTAIN:MAGIC ITEM GOLD PEICE VALUES Many factors must be considered when determining the price of magic items you invent.The easyist way to come up with a price is to match the Newitem with to an item priced in this chapter and use its price as a guide.Otherwise use the guidelines summarized on table 7-33:Estimating Magic Item Gold Peice Values. In both quotations the bolding is mine, added for emphasis.It would seem that table 7-33 is intended for new,invented magic items.Ring of Prestidigitation, Sword of Truestrike, that sort of thing.But I could be wrong.Rings, Rods, and Wonderous Items do refernce Table 7-33. But none of the other Core Item Creation entries do. An neither does any Rune entry that I have been able to find. I would have to say that those that do not refernce it, are not bound by it. Let's look at more of these entiesy. You'll notice not all of the items presented here adhere to these formuls directly.The reasons for this are several.First and formost , these few formulas aren't enough to truely gauge the exact diffences between ,say a ring of fire resistance and and boots of speed-two very dissimular items.Each of the magic items presented herewas examined and modified based on based on its actual worth.The formulas only provide a starting point.The pricing of scrolls assumes that whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it.Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly.Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some DM judgement calls.Use good sense when assigning prices, using the items in this book as examples. Now the SRD, just for completness: Not all items adhere to these formulas directly. The reasons for this are several. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls. Both texts indicate the need for a judgement call in many if not most cases.The DMG quotes are part of an entry that refers explictly to new items that you invent.So is the entry from the SRD. Runes are not new magic items that you invent, anymore than Circle Dance is a new spell that you invent. Neither appear in the Core, but both have Wotc approved,3.5 official,printed rules. Now alternatively, we can consider every magic item a PC makes to be a "new" item that they "invent", and we can compare each Wonderous Item, Scroll,Magic Armor, and such, that is found in a splat book to the ones found in the DMG. If they are signifgantly cheaper but do the same thing, raise their valuation. If they break the formulas, adjust valuation accordingly. On the flip side , if a wizard wants to make an Arcane Candle of Invocation, price it off the Divine one. Dont like that ,do yah? I dont either.But it is consistant with our alternative ruling. Why not skip the alternative interpitation, and houserule instead? There is little doubt in my mind that the origenaldesigners never intended unlimited use spell effect items to exist. They did put in rules for creating them-varient rules.Said rules are very cautious, as well they should be. Subsequent contributers have been simularly cautious, or rather incautious,with the writer(s) of the Runecaster rules being in the latter camp. Leave Runes As Written, and they would have to dominate magic item creation on Ferune.Maybe they do. But they break the base D20 modle, much like Spelldancing or DMM Persitant does.Dont lean on a varient rule to fix this, 0 rule it.Keep it out of your game or nerf it. Just make sure to do the same to the other things that change the basic structures of the game. If you disagree with this post, post book/page numbers to assert your position. I will leave this one alone. It speaks for itself. Expect most DM to laugh at the idea that a Permanent True Strike Rune is in some way more fair or more "RAW" than a Permanent True Stike Wonderous Item. Rune rules are in fact just as much guidelines as Wonderous Item rules. More fair?No. Well, it does take alot more in the way of character resources to make than a Permanent True Stike Wonderous Item.8 level of Prc actually More RAW?Yes.The Wonderous Items Rules are Core rules. The New Magic Items Rules are varient, one which specifies judgement calls.Rune magic rules are Campain specific. An Amulet of Health is an official, printed,Core Magic Item. A Permanent True Stike Wonderous Item, is something new that we invented.It falls under New Magic Items varient rules. Runes are official ,printed Campain specific magic items. The Creating Wonderous Item Core entry refernces Table 7-33.The Runecaster entry (page69 of Players Guide to Ferune),Inscribe Rune entry(page40 same book) and Rune Magic entry(page58 of the Forgotten Realms Campain Setting) do not.The Rune rules are in fact, more ridged, and less "guidelines" than the Wonderous Item Core Rules.They arent somthing new that we invented, and they dont refence Table 7-33 of the DMG.Nothing about them invites the DM to "adjust" thier price or value or whatever-except Rule 0. That should be enough.
risner 01-07-07, 12:37 AM	t would seem that table 7-33 is intended for new,invented magic items. I would have to say that those that do not refernce it, are not bound by it. Runes are not new magic items that you invent The Runecaster entry (page69 of Players Guide to Ferune),Inscribe Rune entry(page40 same book) and Rune Magic entry(page58 of the Forgotten Realms Campain Setting) 7-33 is the "last resort" chart for unique items or effects. Thanks for the page numbers. I just read Runecaster, Inscribe Rune and Rune Magic sections. One thing you never pointed out is that Runes are Spell Triggered items. In other words, they use Wand activation rules (You must have the spell on a spell list.) Wands are Spell Triggered and follow the prices exactly, so Runes would in fact follow the rules exactly (SLxCL) as on page 70 PGtF. Keep in mind, these items are STILL bound by the Item Creation rules in the DMG, it is just that since they are in fact Spell Triggered items and Spell Triggered items follow the formulas "exactly", then you are right about the price and wrong about the reason it follows the price formulas.