Creative grappling solutions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Creative grappling solutions? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
BlackRegiment
10-01-07, 04:42 PM I'm a Dervish, I like to move, and my sadistic GM likes to keep me from moving.

I don't have much room for feats and my cash is tied up in rituals, but I've got to have something. I'm also not looking for 3/day solutions, but something that works all of the time.

Thank you in advance for your wisdom.
ShinAkuma2
10-01-07, 05:16 PM Freedom of Movement, any way you can get it. Teammates, cleric levels, whatever.
Grumman
10-01-07, 05:32 PM I don't know if it has been updated, but 3.0 there was a feat in Sword and Fist called Close-Quarter Fighting, which let you make attacks of opportunity against any grapple, and add your damage to your roll.
BlackRegiment
10-01-07, 05:36 PM I looked at Close quarters, but I'm a scout-dervish to my AOO/close quarters damage isn't high enough to make it worthwhile, at least according to my GM. He's bringing things with imp grapple on me such that what piddling I can add would be moot.

What are good item sources of freedom of movement? The ring is 40k, so that's out :(
ToastedAmphibian
10-01-07, 10:24 PM Feat wise, clever wrestlign might help, but really isnt very good. You might want to look at some of the skill tricks in complete scoundrel, namely quick escpae, escape attack and easy escape. Quick escape lets you make an escape artist check as a swift action, easy escape gives you a bonus aginst larger creatures equal to their size bonus, and escape atttack gives you a swift attack aginst anyone you escape from using escape artist (They are flatfooted for it, so sneak attacks apply) But condisering that quick escape and escape attack both use swift actions, you cant use both during the same round :{. On the plus side, if you fail to escape using quick escape, you can still make your normal escape artist check.

And, being skill tricks, they dont requier any money, feats, or multiclassing. Just 2 skill points apeice. If your a dervish, then you are alteast lvl7, meaning you can have up to 6 tricks right now. You can only tkae one a lvl, but you can have a number of them equal to lvl/2.
deathbane
10-02-07, 12:16 AM I like using the autograb feature as a DM also. The first thing to do is up your AC so you can't get hit. Get a buckler which can be used with two-handed weapons. It will give you a -1 to your attack but you can enchant it to up your AC. Most things that grapple have poor AC. Have your caster blast them with AoE's. You should be able to finish them off with a full round attack. Buy a wand with Freedom of movement, and hand it to whoever has it on their class spell list or a rogue with ranks in UMD. It last 10 minutes per level so that should last you a while. If you cast right before combat, or one round one you will never be grappled.
Pechvarry
10-02-07, 11:16 AM I looked at Close quarters, but I'm a scout-dervish to my AOO/close quarters damage isn't high enough to make it worthwhile, at least according to my GM. He's bringing things with imp grapple on me such that what piddling I can add would be moot.

Close Quarters will give you an AoO even against people with improved grab/pple. If you hit for even 10 damage, you've effectively upped your STR by 20. +10 on the check to resist grapple is nothing to sneeze at. Who knows? Maybe you'll surprise your DM.

Though honestly, I'd just give him the finger. DMs who don't let their players do what they were designed to do are letting the power get to their heads.

Also, remember that Skill tricks are fun, but they're only usable once/battle. Still better than per day uses. much.
PhaedrusXY
10-02-07, 12:18 PM I will 3rd the suggestion for Close-Quarters Fighting, if you can't get reliable access to Freedom of Movement.
tafkamhokie
10-02-07, 12:33 PM The Ring of Freedom of Movement is 40K gp...cost prohibitive for many.

Note a Wand of FoM is 21K gp. For that much, I would just keep saving for the ring.

There is a vest in the MIC that gives you FoM for 3 rounds at a time, 3/day and activating it is a swift action. Only 12K gp. I know it is not exactly what you were looking for, but it is a lot cheaper than a ring or wand.

A grease spell cast on you gives a +10 circumstance bonus on escape artist checks and on checks to resist a grapple.

Slick armor or a Vest of Escape give a competence bonus on escape artist checks.

An enlarge person spell boosts your grapple check by +5.

Anything that would let you teleport, dimension door, dimension hop, or something similar would get you out of a grapple. Etherealness or blink would work too.

Mirror image, displacement, blur, or blink would slow down the initial grapple attempt.

Reduce person and Ray of Enfeeblement will lower your opponent's grapple check. As will tripping them (according to the FAQ, a prone opponent is -4 on grapple checks).

Polymorphing into something that is a better grappler than what has you grappled is another decent option.
terrashand
10-02-07, 11:20 PM I 2nd Pechvarry. A good smack to the back of your DM's head might do the trick. Give him an example of why it's rather wrong and down right vindictive to do that to you.

1. Always putting the Wizard in an anti-magic zone.
2. Sticking the unarmed Monk up against 5 archers who are flying.
3. Never giving a low level rogue ANY shadows, cover, etc to hide behind.

etc, etc, etc...

I'm a DM myself. You design an idea on what you want your campaign to be like. Then you change a few things here and there to go with your group. Or, at least speak with the group about those things. Obviously you can't help a heavily armor Dwarf in a "pirates" game too much...

EDIT: As always try to be tactful with all of this. Screaming of course won't get you anywhere. The smack to the back of the head might work with life-long friends but not with the local game shop's DM.
Knightblde
10-03-07, 08:08 AM I like using the autograb feature as a DM also. The first thing to do is up your AC so you can't get hit. Get a buckler which can be used with two-handed weapons. It will give you a -1 to your attack but you can enchant it to up your AC. Most things that grapple have poor AC. Have your caster blast them with AoE's. You should be able to finish them off with a full round attack. Buy a wand with Freedom of movement, and hand it to whoever has it on their class spell list or a rogue with ranks in UMD. It last 10 minutes per level so that should last you a while. If you cast right before combat, or one round one you will never be grappled.

The grapple 'attack' is a melee touch attack. The buckler has no effect on such attacks.
foxtail
10-03-07, 08:24 AM Get fire resistance of at least 6 from an item or spell, then douse yourself in oil and light it up.

They can't catch you if you're on fire.
deathbane
10-03-07, 08:35 AM The grapple 'attack' is a melee touch attack. The buckler has no effect on such attacks.

Most monsters that grapple don't have improved grapple. They have improved grab which requires them to hit with a bite or one claw or two claws depending on the monster, and if they don't hit your AC there is no grabbing unless his DM is willing to take the AoO. If he enchants the buckler it will up his AC.
WombleHunter
10-03-07, 08:55 AM Get fire resistance of at least 6 from an item or spell, then douse yourself in oil and light it up.

They can't catch you if you're on fire.

Can Ninjas be Dervishes? (;))

More usefully, there are several kinds of cheap boots in the MIC that can teleport you short distances, even some which do so as a move action or a swift action. Get some of those.

Close-Quarters Fighting can be great. In a recent game, my Fighter 8/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 3 came up against some maximally-advanced Tendriculoses - which have Improved Grab and a very low AC. It was gratifying to get a grapple check of 91, as well as doing ~50 points of damage :D.
CrazyGuy
10-03-07, 12:35 PM One could make a case that a Blink spell would give one a 50% chance of slipping to Ethereal plane and allowing an escape, much like you have a 50% chance to walk through a wall, but given the way the way the DM seems out to get you, I cannot anticipate much luck with this approach.

Greater Blink (CArc), OTOH, gives you complete control over the blinking, and I have a hard time seeing how a reasonable DM could argue against allowing this. I am not certain if any items exist that grant this, but extrapolation from those that grant Blink should not be hard.

Both also have the advantage of offering a 50% miss chance, making it less likely you will be grappled to begin with. The downside is that both cut your speed to 3/4ths, which you may not want as a Dervish.

A more offensively-minded option is, assuming you regularly weild a light weapon, is spring for the Last Resort enhancement, which is in CWar. This will not stop you from getting grappled, but it will make them pay for it. Note this only helps if you ware wielding it beforehand, like if you TWF-once you get grappled, it is too late to switch.
Knightblde
10-03-07, 06:24 PM Most monsters that grapple don't have improved grapple. They have improved grab which requires them to hit with a bite or one claw or two claws depending on the monster, and if they don't hit your AC there is no grabbing unless his DM is willing to take the AoO. If he enchants the buckler it will up his AC.

Ah, now I see your point and it makes sense.
Empirate
10-08-07, 12:06 PM Buy as many Pearls of Power I as you expect combats in a day, minus one. Give them to your arcane caster. Before combat starts, that caster's job is to cast Grease on you. Also, maximize Escape Artist, buy a Vest of Escape and get those skill tricks mentioned earlier.
For a few thousand gp, you are now officially (almost) immune to being grappled.

EDIT: Saw these have been mentioned... sorry.
Dog_O_War
10-08-07, 12:51 PM Next time it happens (your DM jacks you) say, "I quit" and walk away. when he comes to find out why, tell him he's being a dick by always nerfing you. Tell him that you can understand it once in a while, but all the time? not fair. Tell him you're not looking for special treatment, just the one granted to you by privilage of birth; human rights. This requires a bit of something called courage, which is rare and hard to come by - especially when friends are concerned (I know; I seem to lack it whenever my friends try and take advantage of me when we play). If this does not work, pull a character 360 and focus all efforts into reaping mauler. This a most brutal option to do for a character quite litterally not built for it, but hey - you asked what options you've got. Or you could take martial adept feats; pouncing charge is especially vicious.
MnemonicSV
10-09-07, 01:03 AM If your DM likes to throw very large grapplers at you (if he really wants to cripple you via grappling, he will), you may be best served to have a +1 Dagger of Last Resort on your person (Complete Warrior, 135).

It will run you 8K, but will discourage very large grapplers from continuing to grapple you, since the dagger will do an extra 1d6 damage for every size category the grappler is bigger than you.
foxtail
10-09-07, 05:58 AM If your DM likes to throw very large grapplers at you (if he really wants to cripple you via grappling, he will), you may be best served to have a +1 Dagger of Last Resort on your person (Complete Warrior, 135).

Against your standard mega-grappler, a spiked gauntlet of last resort might be better, since you don't have to deal with the grapple check to draw it.
Fallenangel359
10-09-07, 11:09 AM Shapesoulmeld blinkshirt will give you atwill dimensional door 10 feet

if you get bonus essentia, you can boost it to 30 feet

If you want to be nasty and vindictive about it, technically dimensional door is a form of movement, which can trigger skirmish, and if you take a level of sohei, and the feat sunschool, you get the maneuver flash of sunset, which lets you make an attack at the end of a dimensional door.

My samurai 2, totemist 2, fighter 1, sohei 1, warblade 1, iaijutsu master 5 has it. I pull off some really surprising strikes sometimes.

Swiftleap through their square, with acrobatic backstab, then full power attack emerald razor iaijutsu strike for an average of 84 physical and 1d6 fire, and then dimensional door doing another strike against them, or retreating
MnemonicSV
10-09-07, 01:05 PM Against your standard mega-grappler, a spiked gauntlet of last resort might be better, since you don't have to deal with the grapple check to draw it.

Good point!
The_Wrath_of_Talos
10-09-07, 04:27 PM The cheapest way to stay out of a grapple is to invest in either spiked or razor armor. If you have the cash add an enchanment to it that deals damage or posions. You can always pick up an item to enlarge urself giving u a +4 to ur grapple checks as well.

If your DM is trying to restrict ur movement try to get some slippers of spider climbing, or something that allows you to fly. Cause technically u can dance on the walls or in the air.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BlackRegiment 10-01-07, 04:42 PM	I'm a Dervish, I like to move, and my sadistic GM likes to keep me from moving. I don't have much room for feats and my cash is tied up in rituals, but I've got to have something. I'm also not looking for 3/day solutions, but something that works all of the time. Thank you in advance for your wisdom.
ShinAkuma2 10-01-07, 05:16 PM	Freedom of Movement, any way you can get it. Teammates, cleric levels, whatever.
Grumman 10-01-07, 05:32 PM	I don't know if it has been updated, but 3.0 there was a feat in Sword and Fist called Close-Quarter Fighting, which let you make attacks of opportunity against any grapple, and add your damage to your roll.
BlackRegiment 10-01-07, 05:36 PM	I looked at Close quarters, but I'm a scout-dervish to my AOO/close quarters damage isn't high enough to make it worthwhile, at least according to my GM. He's bringing things with imp grapple on me such that what piddling I can add would be moot. What are good item sources of freedom of movement? The ring is 40k, so that's out :(
ToastedAmphibian 10-01-07, 10:24 PM	Feat wise, clever wrestlign might help, but really isnt very good. You might want to look at some of the skill tricks in complete scoundrel, namely quick escpae, escape attack and easy escape. Quick escape lets you make an escape artist check as a swift action, easy escape gives you a bonus aginst larger creatures equal to their size bonus, and escape atttack gives you a swift attack aginst anyone you escape from using escape artist (They are flatfooted for it, so sneak attacks apply) But condisering that quick escape and escape attack both use swift actions, you cant use both during the same round :{. On the plus side, if you fail to escape using quick escape, you can still make your normal escape artist check. And, being skill tricks, they dont requier any money, feats, or multiclassing. Just 2 skill points apeice. If your a dervish, then you are alteast lvl7, meaning you can have up to 6 tricks right now. You can only tkae one a lvl, but you can have a number of them equal to lvl/2.
deathbane 10-02-07, 12:16 AM	I like using the autograb feature as a DM also. The first thing to do is up your AC so you can't get hit. Get a buckler which can be used with two-handed weapons. It will give you a -1 to your attack but you can enchant it to up your AC. Most things that grapple have poor AC. Have your caster blast them with AoE's. You should be able to finish them off with a full round attack. Buy a wand with Freedom of movement, and hand it to whoever has it on their class spell list or a rogue with ranks in UMD. It last 10 minutes per level so that should last you a while. If you cast right before combat, or one round one you will never be grappled.
Pechvarry 10-02-07, 11:16 AM	I looked at Close quarters, but I'm a scout-dervish to my AOO/close quarters damage isn't high enough to make it worthwhile, at least according to my GM. He's bringing things with imp grapple on me such that what piddling I can add would be moot. Close Quarters will give you an AoO even against people with improved grab/pple. If you hit for even 10 damage, you've effectively upped your STR by 20. +10 on the check to resist grapple is nothing to sneeze at. Who knows? Maybe you'll surprise your DM. Though honestly, I'd just give him the finger. DMs who don't let their players do what they were designed to do are letting the power get to their heads. Also, remember that Skill tricks are fun, but they're only usable once/battle. Still better than per day uses. much.
PhaedrusXY 10-02-07, 12:18 PM	I will 3rd the suggestion for Close-Quarters Fighting, if you can't get reliable access to Freedom of Movement.
tafkamhokie 10-02-07, 12:33 PM	The Ring of Freedom of Movement is 40K gp...cost prohibitive for many. Note a Wand of FoM is 21K gp. For that much, I would just keep saving for the ring. There is a vest in the MIC that gives you FoM for 3 rounds at a time, 3/day and activating it is a swift action. Only 12K gp. I know it is not exactly what you were looking for, but it is a lot cheaper than a ring or wand. A grease spell cast on you gives a +10 circumstance bonus on escape artist checks and on checks to resist a grapple. Slick armor or a Vest of Escape give a competence bonus on escape artist checks. An enlarge person spell boosts your grapple check by +5. Anything that would let you teleport, dimension door, dimension hop, or something similar would get you out of a grapple. Etherealness or blink would work too. Mirror image, displacement, blur, or blink would slow down the initial grapple attempt. Reduce person and Ray of Enfeeblement will lower your opponent's grapple check. As will tripping them (according to the FAQ, a prone opponent is -4 on grapple checks). Polymorphing into something that is a better grappler than what has you grappled is another decent option.
terrashand 10-02-07, 11:20 PM	I 2nd Pechvarry. A good smack to the back of your DM's head might do the trick. Give him an example of why it's rather wrong and down right vindictive to do that to you. 1. Always putting the Wizard in an anti-magic zone. 2. Sticking the unarmed Monk up against 5 archers who are flying. 3. Never giving a low level rogue ANY shadows, cover, etc to hide behind. etc, etc, etc... I'm a DM myself. You design an idea on what you want your campaign to be like. Then you change a few things here and there to go with your group. Or, at least speak with the group about those things. Obviously you can't help a heavily armor Dwarf in a "pirates" game too much... EDIT: As always try to be tactful with all of this. Screaming of course won't get you anywhere. The smack to the back of the head might work with life-long friends but not with the local game shop's DM.
Knightblde 10-03-07, 08:08 AM	I like using the autograb feature as a DM also. The first thing to do is up your AC so you can't get hit. Get a buckler which can be used with two-handed weapons. It will give you a -1 to your attack but you can enchant it to up your AC. Most things that grapple have poor AC. Have your caster blast them with AoE's. You should be able to finish them off with a full round attack. Buy a wand with Freedom of movement, and hand it to whoever has it on their class spell list or a rogue with ranks in UMD. It last 10 minutes per level so that should last you a while. If you cast right before combat, or one round one you will never be grappled. The grapple 'attack' is a melee touch attack. The buckler has no effect on such attacks.
foxtail 10-03-07, 08:24 AM	Get fire resistance of at least 6 from an item or spell, then douse yourself in oil and light it up. They can't catch you if you're on fire.
deathbane 10-03-07, 08:35 AM	The grapple 'attack' is a melee touch attack. The buckler has no effect on such attacks. Most monsters that grapple don't have improved grapple. They have improved grab which requires them to hit with a bite or one claw or two claws depending on the monster, and if they don't hit your AC there is no grabbing unless his DM is willing to take the AoO. If he enchants the buckler it will up his AC.
WombleHunter 10-03-07, 08:55 AM	Get fire resistance of at least 6 from an item or spell, then douse yourself in oil and light it up. They can't catch you if you're on fire. Can Ninjas be Dervishes? (;)) More usefully, there are several kinds of cheap boots in the MIC that can teleport you short distances, even some which do so as a move action or a swift action. Get some of those. Close-Quarters Fighting can be great. In a recent game, my Fighter 8/Sorcerer 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Spellsword 3 came up against some maximally-advanced Tendriculoses - which have Improved Grab and a very low AC. It was gratifying to get a grapple check of 91, as well as doing ~50 points of damage :D.
CrazyGuy 10-03-07, 12:35 PM	One could make a case that a Blink spell would give one a 50% chance of slipping to Ethereal plane and allowing an escape, much like you have a 50% chance to walk through a wall, but given the way the way the DM seems out to get you, I cannot anticipate much luck with this approach. Greater Blink (CArc), OTOH, gives you complete control over the blinking, and I have a hard time seeing how a reasonable DM could argue against allowing this. I am not certain if any items exist that grant this, but extrapolation from those that grant Blink should not be hard. Both also have the advantage of offering a 50% miss chance, making it less likely you will be grappled to begin with. The downside is that both cut your speed to 3/4ths, which you may not want as a Dervish. A more offensively-minded option is, assuming you regularly weild a light weapon, is spring for the Last Resort enhancement, which is in CWar. This will not stop you from getting grappled, but it will make them pay for it. Note this only helps if you ware wielding it beforehand, like if you TWF-once you get grappled, it is too late to switch.
Knightblde 10-03-07, 06:24 PM	Most monsters that grapple don't have improved grapple. They have improved grab which requires them to hit with a bite or one claw or two claws depending on the monster, and if they don't hit your AC there is no grabbing unless his DM is willing to take the AoO. If he enchants the buckler it will up his AC. Ah, now I see your point and it makes sense.
Empirate 10-08-07, 12:06 PM	Buy as many Pearls of Power I as you expect combats in a day, minus one. Give them to your arcane caster. Before combat starts, that caster's job is to cast Grease on you. Also, maximize Escape Artist, buy a Vest of Escape and get those skill tricks mentioned earlier. For a few thousand gp, you are now officially (almost) immune to being grappled. EDIT: Saw these have been mentioned... sorry.
Dog_O_War 10-08-07, 12:51 PM	Next time it happens (your DM jacks you) say, "I quit" and walk away. when he comes to find out why, tell him he's being a dick by always nerfing you. Tell him that you can understand it once in a while, but all the time? not fair. Tell him you're not looking for special treatment, just the one granted to you by privilage of birth; human rights. This requires a bit of something called courage, which is rare and hard to come by - especially when friends are concerned (I know; I seem to lack it whenever my friends try and take advantage of me when we play). If this does not work, pull a character 360 and focus all efforts into reaping mauler. This a most brutal option to do for a character quite litterally not built for it, but hey - you asked what options you've got. Or you could take martial adept feats; pouncing charge is especially vicious.
MnemonicSV 10-09-07, 01:03 AM	If your DM likes to throw very large grapplers at you (if he really wants to cripple you via grappling, he will), you may be best served to have a +1 Dagger of Last Resort on your person (Complete Warrior, 135). It will run you 8K, but will discourage very large grapplers from continuing to grapple you, since the dagger will do an extra 1d6 damage for every size category the grappler is bigger than you.
foxtail 10-09-07, 05:58 AM	If your DM likes to throw very large grapplers at you (if he really wants to cripple you via grappling, he will), you may be best served to have a +1 Dagger of Last Resort on your person (Complete Warrior, 135). Against your standard mega-grappler, a spiked gauntlet of last resort might be better, since you don't have to deal with the grapple check to draw it.
Fallenangel359 10-09-07, 11:09 AM	Shapesoulmeld blinkshirt will give you atwill dimensional door 10 feet if you get bonus essentia, you can boost it to 30 feet If you want to be nasty and vindictive about it, technically dimensional door is a form of movement, which can trigger skirmish, and if you take a level of sohei, and the feat sunschool, you get the maneuver flash of sunset, which lets you make an attack at the end of a dimensional door. My samurai 2, totemist 2, fighter 1, sohei 1, warblade 1, iaijutsu master 5 has it. I pull off some really surprising strikes sometimes. Swiftleap through their square, with acrobatic backstab, then full power attack emerald razor iaijutsu strike for an average of 84 physical and 1d6 fire, and then dimensional door doing another strike against them, or retreating
MnemonicSV 10-09-07, 01:05 PM	Against your standard mega-grappler, a spiked gauntlet of last resort might be better, since you don't have to deal with the grapple check to draw it. Good point!
The_Wrath_of_Talos 10-09-07, 04:27 PM	The cheapest way to stay out of a grapple is to invest in either spiked or razor armor. If you have the cash add an enchanment to it that deals damage or posions. You can always pick up an item to enlarge urself giving u a +4 to ur grapple checks as well. If your DM is trying to restrict ur movement try to get some slippers of spider climbing, or something that allows you to fly. Cause technically u can dance on the walls or in the air.