Crit and power atk...need answers!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crit and power atk...need answers!! [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
necrom99
05-21-06, 12:07 AM when you crit on an atk where you use Power Atk does the extra damage get doubled as well?? as per the crit rule?
serow_#R
05-21-06, 12:13 AM yes...
GalaGalaxia
05-21-06, 12:15 AM yikes, that's a big font!
necrom99
05-21-06, 12:39 AM so theoretically, if i had say a greatsword, power ATK and leap atk and improved crit, i could be doing 40+ dmg on a critical hit, if i used 10 points of base atk.? is that right? provided i jumped first of course............ leap atk is a feat from one of the complete books by the way
BladeBoy
05-21-06, 01:16 AM at level one you can do 40+ damage with that even. so, yes.
MingThing
05-21-06, 01:18 AM so theoretically, if i had say a greatsword, power ATK and leap atk and improved crit, i could be doing 40+ dmg on a critical hit, if i used 10 points of base atk.? is that right? provided i jumped first of course............ leap atk is a feat from one of the complete books by the way

doesnt tmproved critical improve threath range, not multiplier?
terrashand
05-21-06, 01:29 AM doesnt tmproved critical improve threath range, not multiplier?

Yes but he is saying pumping 10 BAB into dam. So with the avg damage on a greatsword 7 + 10 from P.Atk + 2 Weap Spec + 6 (18 str?) = 25*2=50 damage.
necrom99
05-21-06, 07:02 AM actually, what i was saying is.....a 2handed weapon gives you 1.5x your STR mod and it doubles what you add to power atk. so if i put 10 points in i get +20 dmg and if i use the leap atk feat(provided i jump 10 feet) i get times 3, so i would get +30 damage, now if i crit on top of that how much dmg is the bonus? are we talkin' +40 or +60??? and of course thats not even counting my str bonus or what i roll.....thats just the basic bonus from power atk!
necrom99
05-21-06, 07:04 AM at level one you can do 40+ damage with that even. so, yes.

how in the world does someone get a +40 damage bonus at lvl one.....
Bulletproof_Condom
05-21-06, 07:23 AM Maybe he meant 40+ damage (meaning 40 damage or better), not +40 damage.
A 1st-level half-orc barbarian with Power Attack and a greatsword could break 40 damage on a crit (but just barely).
If he had a greataxe, he could break 60 damage on a crit (but again, just barely, plus those crits would happen half as often).
I don't even want to talk about the scythe.

But yeah, the rule is that the base weapon damage and any straight numerical bonuses to damage (enhancement, Strength, favored enemy, Power Attack) all get multiplied on a crit.
Extra damage dice (sneak attack, Psionic Weapon, flaming, holy) do not.

If, for any reason, your damage with a greatsword is 2d6+40, then on a crit, you would be doing 4d6+80. Doesn't matter if it's because you've got Leap Attack or seventeen feats to boost damage or a +40 greatsword, numerical bonuses always multiply on a crit.
Zherog
05-21-06, 11:26 AM actually, what i was saying is.....a 2handed weapon gives you 1.5x your STR mod and it doubles what you add to power atk. so if i put 10 points in i get +20 dmg and if i use the leap atk feat(provided i jump 10 feet) i get times 3, so i would get +30 damage, now if i crit on top of that how much dmg is the bonus? are we talkin' +40 or +60??? and of course thats not even counting my str bonus or what i roll.....thats just the basic bonus from power atk!

Note that Leap Attack has been errata'ed/clarified:

Page 110: Leap Attack
The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows:
If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat.

I'm still not quite sure how that's supposed to work out, to be honest. But I think you're correct that you get +30 on a normal hit and +60 on a crit.
necrom99
05-21-06, 04:13 PM i wasn't aware that there was another version of leap atk than the one you just gave me.....all i'm saying is that your looking at +60 damage if i'm right, look: a two handed weapon doubles power atk, and leap atk gives +100% to power atk, so by virtue of the rules were at a healthy triple power atk now if I include a critical hit, i'm looking at phenomenal damage am I not? i'm trying to make a barbarian who wields a greatsword and I stumbled on this feat combination....and since he's gonna be LVL 10 i figure I could be smokin' everything i hit!
necrom99
05-21-06, 04:16 PM Maybe he meant 40+ damage (meaning 40 damage or better), not +40 damage.
A 1st-level half-orc barbarian with Power Attack and a greatsword could break 40 damage on a crit (but just barely).

could someone explain to me how a half orc who at best has 20 str wielding a greatsword with his puny +1 base atk bonus is dealing massive death like this? 'cause i dont get it!
Sornfang
05-21-06, 04:54 PM Half-Orc Barbarian Raging with Power Attack =

24 Str = +7 to hit +10dmg with a two handed weapon
Power attack 1 = -1 to hit + 2 dmg with a two handed weapon

With a greatsword non crit 2d6+12(14-24)
with a crit 4d6+24(28-48)

Great axe no crit 1d12+12(13-24)
With a crit 3d12+36(39-72)

Scythe no crit 2d4+12
with crit 8d4+48(56-80)
BladeBoy
05-21-06, 06:26 PM exactly, it's just VERY rare.
Sir Knight
05-22-06, 08:06 PM Now take this with a grain of salt because he has Frenzied Berserker levels but our Barbarian got a critical hit (we're 14th level) this past session and he did somewhere around 300 points of damage. It was just plain sick (another reason why we will NOT allow Frenzied Berserkers ever again as PCs) as he took out an Elder Fire Elemental with one hit. It was awesome though.
Bulletproof_Condom
05-22-06, 08:08 PM ...aren't elementals immune to crits?
ShinAkuma2
05-22-06, 11:40 PM Shush, you. Let the boy dream.
MingThing
05-23-06, 05:01 AM don't forget ppl, only bab bonus can be converted to damage by power atc. at lvl 1 thats max 1 penalty.

U should get yourself a exotic one handed weapon (D.War Axe) and use it in two, combine it with a lvl in exotic weapon master, getting the trick that dubles str when weilding a one handed in 2 hands. combine it with combat brute to triple power attack dmg with 2 handed after charge. do a crit. weeeee!!!! blood and gore!!!
kjenks
05-23-06, 08:11 AM Level 1 human fighter, feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge. Str 18. Normal lance, wielded two-handed. +7 attack bonus, 3d8+18 damage on a Spirited Charge, 5d8+30 on a crit (20/x3) (for 70 damage, max).

And after that attack, he's 60 ft. away from his opponents, lining up for another charge the next round.

This attack form has no Power Attack, no rage (1/day), no fancy feats from Complete * books, just PHB stuff. You shouldn't be surprised that there are other attack forms (such as Sornfang's half-orc example) that also do a lot of damage.
Lotus Crane
05-23-06, 09:16 AM Why is 40+ damage per hit from a melee combatant any surprise? I'd say 200-300 damage per round should be normal for a well-built melee combatant at higher levels, whether a TWF rogue or 2HW barbarian...
kjenks
05-23-06, 05:16 PM Why is 40+ damage per hit from a melee combatant any surprise? I'd say 200-300 damage per round should be normal for a well-built melee combatant at higher levels, whether a TWF rogue or 2HW barbarian...

It's a bit of a surprise from a level 1 character.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
necrom99 05-21-06, 12:07 AM	when you crit on an atk where you use Power Atk does the extra damage get doubled as well?? as per the crit rule?
serow_#R 05-21-06, 12:13 AM	yes...
GalaGalaxia 05-21-06, 12:15 AM	yikes, that's a big font!
necrom99 05-21-06, 12:39 AM	so theoretically, if i had say a greatsword, power ATK and leap atk and improved crit, i could be doing 40+ dmg on a critical hit, if i used 10 points of base atk.? is that right? provided i jumped first of course............ leap atk is a feat from one of the complete books by the way
BladeBoy 05-21-06, 01:16 AM	at level one you can do 40+ damage with that even. so, yes.
MingThing 05-21-06, 01:18 AM	so theoretically, if i had say a greatsword, power ATK and leap atk and improved crit, i could be doing 40+ dmg on a critical hit, if i used 10 points of base atk.? is that right? provided i jumped first of course............ leap atk is a feat from one of the complete books by the way doesnt tmproved critical improve threath range, not multiplier?
terrashand 05-21-06, 01:29 AM	doesnt tmproved critical improve threath range, not multiplier? Yes but he is saying pumping 10 BAB into dam. So with the avg damage on a greatsword 7 + 10 from P.Atk + 2 Weap Spec + 6 (18 str?) = 25*2=50 damage.
necrom99 05-21-06, 07:02 AM	actually, what i was saying is.....a 2handed weapon gives you 1.5x your STR mod and it doubles what you add to power atk. so if i put 10 points in i get +20 dmg and if i use the leap atk feat(provided i jump 10 feet) i get times 3, so i would get +30 damage, now if i crit on top of that how much dmg is the bonus? are we talkin' +40 or +60??? and of course thats not even counting my str bonus or what i roll.....thats just the basic bonus from power atk!
necrom99 05-21-06, 07:04 AM	at level one you can do 40+ damage with that even. so, yes. how in the world does someone get a +40 damage bonus at lvl one.....
Bulletproof_Condom 05-21-06, 07:23 AM	Maybe he meant 40+ damage (meaning 40 damage or better), not +40 damage. A 1st-level half-orc barbarian with Power Attack and a greatsword could break 40 damage on a crit (but just barely). If he had a greataxe, he could break 60 damage on a crit (but again, just barely, plus those crits would happen half as often). I don't even want to talk about the scythe. But yeah, the rule is that the base weapon damage and any straight numerical bonuses to damage (enhancement, Strength, favored enemy, Power Attack) all get multiplied on a crit. Extra damage dice (sneak attack, Psionic Weapon, flaming, holy) do not. If, for any reason, your damage with a greatsword is 2d6+40, then on a crit, you would be doing 4d6+80. Doesn't matter if it's because you've got Leap Attack or seventeen feats to boost damage or a +40 greatsword, numerical bonuses always multiply on a crit.
Zherog 05-21-06, 11:26 AM	actually, what i was saying is.....a 2handed weapon gives you 1.5x your STR mod and it doubles what you add to power atk. so if i put 10 points in i get +20 dmg and if i use the leap atk feat(provided i jump 10 feet) i get times 3, so i would get +30 damage, now if i crit on top of that how much dmg is the bonus? are we talkin' +40 or +60??? and of course thats not even counting my str bonus or what i roll.....thats just the basic bonus from power atk! Note that Leap Attack has been errata'ed/clarified: Page 110: Leap Attack The second sentence of the Benefit paragraph should read as follows: If you cover at least 10 feet of horizontal distance with your jump, and you end your jump in a square from which you threaten your target, you deal +100% the normal bonus damage from your use of the Power Attack feat. I'm still not quite sure how that's supposed to work out, to be honest. But I think you're correct that you get +30 on a normal hit and +60 on a crit.
necrom99 05-21-06, 04:13 PM	i wasn't aware that there was another version of leap atk than the one you just gave me.....all i'm saying is that your looking at +60 damage if i'm right, look: a two handed weapon doubles power atk, and leap atk gives +100% to power atk, so by virtue of the rules were at a healthy triple power atk now if I include a critical hit, i'm looking at phenomenal damage am I not? i'm trying to make a barbarian who wields a greatsword and I stumbled on this feat combination....and since he's gonna be LVL 10 i figure I could be smokin' everything i hit!
necrom99 05-21-06, 04:16 PM	Maybe he meant 40+ damage (meaning 40 damage or better), not +40 damage. A 1st-level half-orc barbarian with Power Attack and a greatsword could break 40 damage on a crit (but just barely). could someone explain to me how a half orc who at best has 20 str wielding a greatsword with his puny +1 base atk bonus is dealing massive death like this? 'cause i dont get it!
Sornfang 05-21-06, 04:54 PM	Half-Orc Barbarian Raging with Power Attack = 24 Str = +7 to hit +10dmg with a two handed weapon Power attack 1 = -1 to hit + 2 dmg with a two handed weapon With a greatsword non crit 2d6+12(14-24) with a crit 4d6+24(28-48) Great axe no crit 1d12+12(13-24) With a crit 3d12+36(39-72) Scythe no crit 2d4+12 with crit 8d4+48(56-80)
BladeBoy 05-21-06, 06:26 PM	exactly, it's just VERY rare.
Sir Knight 05-22-06, 08:06 PM	Now take this with a grain of salt because he has Frenzied Berserker levels but our Barbarian got a critical hit (we're 14th level) this past session and he did somewhere around 300 points of damage. It was just plain sick (another reason why we will NOT allow Frenzied Berserkers ever again as PCs) as he took out an Elder Fire Elemental with one hit. It was awesome though.
Bulletproof_Condom 05-22-06, 08:08 PM	...aren't elementals immune to crits?
ShinAkuma2 05-22-06, 11:40 PM	Shush, you. Let the boy dream.
MingThing 05-23-06, 05:01 AM	don't forget ppl, only bab bonus can be converted to damage by power atc. at lvl 1 thats max 1 penalty. U should get yourself a exotic one handed weapon (D.War Axe) and use it in two, combine it with a lvl in exotic weapon master, getting the trick that dubles str when weilding a one handed in 2 hands. combine it with combat brute to triple power attack dmg with 2 handed after charge. do a crit. weeeee!!!! blood and gore!!!
kjenks 05-23-06, 08:11 AM	Level 1 human fighter, feats: Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge. Str 18. Normal lance, wielded two-handed. +7 attack bonus, 3d8+18 damage on a Spirited Charge, 5d8+30 on a crit (20/x3) (for 70 damage, max). And after that attack, he's 60 ft. away from his opponents, lining up for another charge the next round. This attack form has no Power Attack, no rage (1/day), no fancy feats from Complete * books, just PHB stuff. You shouldn't be surprised that there are other attack forms (such as Sornfang's half-orc example) that also do a lot of damage.
Lotus Crane 05-23-06, 09:16 AM	Why is 40+ damage per hit from a melee combatant any surprise? I'd say 200-300 damage per round should be normal for a well-built melee combatant at higher levels, whether a TWF rogue or 2HW barbarian...
kjenks 05-23-06, 05:16 PM	Why is 40+ damage per hit from a melee combatant any surprise? I'd say 200-300 damage per round should be normal for a well-built melee combatant at higher levels, whether a TWF rogue or 2HW barbarian... It's a bit of a surprise from a level 1 character.