crit damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

crit damage [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rjmgsouthard
08-17-06, 10:37 PM I recently re-read some of the players handbook and realized that I have been doing crit damage wrong. My group has been multiplying damage directly. For example, hits with a longsword for 1d8+1 damage, with a confirmed crit rolls a 5. Thats 6 base damage, times two for 12 damage. What we should be doing is rolling 2d8+2. Does this sound about right? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?
DM Zoc
08-17-06, 10:47 PM You have it correct now. My group had been misreading that rule for years, and it took us a while to get back on track.
tiercel
08-17-06, 10:56 PM Yes.

I have known a number of people who have played it that way (roll once and then double), and it's not *terrible* -- on average, it comes out the same. It means you will get more extreme critical hits though. (You are a lot more likely to wind up with 2 or 16 by doubling d8 than you are if you roll 2d8.)

By the rules, though, you are supposed to roll the appropriate die/dice twice. (Note that "extra damage dice" like sneak attack damage and enchantments like flaming or merciful don't double, but non-dice bonuses like Strength or enhancement bonuses or morale bonuses or whatever do double.)
K_Man
08-17-06, 11:02 PM We just multiply, mainly for ease of effort. We are all mid 20s in age, but only about 2 of us know how to count past 20, 21 if male, so, they just roll the base, and the two of us who can, just mulitply it out. You ever see smoke come out of someone's ears trying to add 20 and 4? I kid you not.
ShinAkuma2
08-17-06, 11:20 PM We just multiply, mainly for ease of effort. We are all mid 20s in age, but only about 2 of us know how to count past 20, 21 if male, so, they just roll the base, and the two of us who can, just mulitply it out. You ever see smoke come out of someone's ears trying to add 20 and 4? I kid you not.

Joke post.

PLEASE, let it be a joke post.

No, I take that back, I play with people like this, too. :weep:
rjmgsouthard
08-18-06, 07:49 AM Thanks for the confirmation that I am a Idiot!

Hehe. No really, thanks fo rthe replies.
mvincent
08-18-06, 07:04 PM What we should be doing is rolling 2d8+2. Does this sound about right? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?This sounds like one of the most reasonable questions I've heard. While supposedly you are supposed to reroll instead of multiply (even though it's called "multiplying"), I've rarely seen this done. And when it is done, things get terribly confoosed. Trying to do this with say, a spirited charge lance crit (x5) would just be a pain.
cwslyclgh
08-18-06, 07:11 PM Trying to do this with say, a spirited charge lance crit (x5) would just be a pain.it's not a pain... it's a reason to keep those big handfuls of dice that your wife (or at least mine) always complains about around :P
Dalthbar
08-18-06, 07:27 PM I have a half-ogre scout wielding a keen greatsword in one game. Given my current level for skirmish, that's 9d6 when I crit - which is awefully fun. I rather enjoy rolling all the dice instead of just multiplying it out. It's also somewhat dramatic when you throw out a handful of dice and start counting out loud. It's fun watching people's eyes pop out of their head.

Ever the showman, you wait until the end and say "Oh yeah, forgot to add the Leap Attack damage. That'll be..."
mvincent
08-18-06, 07:44 PM it's not a pain... it's a reason to keep those big handfuls of dice that your wife (or at least mine) always complains about around :PPlayer: <rolling a d20 and a d8> Sweet! I just critted with my spirited, smiting charge. Lessee, that's 25 damage, x5, so I did 125 damage!
DM: No, no. You have to roll for each multiplier <... followed by lengthy explanation on how to do this>.
Player: Oh. Ok. Lessee, I rolled a 4 with the first d8, so let me roll four more times. 5, 3, 7, 3. Ok, I had +21 to damage, so that comes to 26, 24, 28, 24... I think. So a total of 102... wait what about the first roll? What was it? Hold on, I think if I just multiply 21 times 5, then add the 5 rolls... what were they?... lemme reroll. 6, 3, 8, 1, plus 21 x 5... wait, did I just roll the d8 four or five times? Did I even confirm my crit? <smoke starts coming out of his ears>
Mitchell
08-18-06, 11:57 PM I have always let the players decide, as long as they announce it beforehand (generally we set it up as an either/or... You can decide how you want to do it, but you will always do it that way for the session. You can change before a game, but not during).
It's really the same thing as high crit multipliers vs. larger crit range. Do you want to do a lot more damage infrequently or a bit more damage more regularly? By multiplying a d8X whatever (two or three, for a longsword or battleaxe), you have a 1 in 8 chance of maxing out, or minimizing the crit damage. By rolling 2 or 3 d8, you are more likely to come out average, with only a 1 in 64 or 512 chance of maximizing or minimizing damage.
The exact odds vary according to the base damage die and the multiplier, but if someone can live with a critical hit failing to get through damage reduction, then I can live with the occasional huge hit.
My regular DM feels generally the same way.
Tarsam_di_Caela
08-19-06, 05:52 AM Maybe the players don'nt know it, but multiplying damages as in RAW is (on the long distance) better for them. Although both methods have the same average, just rolling once and multipliying increase the probability of extreme results, making damage rolls more chaotic, what is always against the PCs.
Nom
08-19-06, 09:01 AM There are two ways to reliably do crits "correctly".

(1) Know your number of dice and your total bonus, and multiply each out before rolling. 1d8 + 7 becomes 5d8 + 35. If you're in the habit of going "I rolled 7, plus 2 Str, plus +1 magic, ... uh ... plus +1 point blank, is ... uh ... 11", this isn't going to work.

(2) Roll independent damage multiple times and tally results. 1d8 + 7 -> 10. That's one. 1d8 + 7 -> 14. +10 = 24. That's two. And so on.
Nived
08-19-06, 11:43 AM Player: <rolling a d20 and a d8> Sweet! I just critted with my spirited, smiting charge. Lessee, that's 25 damage, x5, so I did 125 damage!
DM: No, no. You have to roll for each multiplier <... followed by lengthy explanation on how to do this>.
Player: Oh. Ok. Lessee, I rolled a 4 with the first d8, so let me roll four more times. 5, 3, 7, 3. Ok, I had +21 to damage, so that comes to 26, 24, 28, 24... I think. So a total of 102... wait what about the first roll? What was it? Hold on, I think if I just multiply 21 times 5, then add the 5 rolls... what were they?... lemme reroll. 6, 3, 8, 1, plus 21 x 5... wait, did I just roll the d8 four or five times? Did I even confirm my crit? <smoke starts coming out of his ears>

Wow, that player is never going to play a wizard is he? I mean if rolling 5d8 is difficult for him how's he going to cope with 15d6 on a fireball? Oh, and on those rolls he did 127 damage, did that in my head while reading the post.
natural_selection
08-19-06, 01:33 PM For most ppl its better to roll the dices and add the result together rather then muliplying. In the first instance you can use your fingers. Multiplying requires skills which are dying out in the generations which come after me.

Thats one of the thinks I like about dnd: You cannot play it without a certain skill of maths. That makes it a better hobby than TV.
mvincent
08-19-06, 04:48 PM if rolling 5d8 is difficult for him how's he going to cope with 15d6 on a fireball?It was simply to illustrate intuitiveness, whichis key to good game design. Knowing ahead of time that you need to roll a 15d6 (empowered?) fireball is actually easier than realizing after your attack roll that you now have to roll more dice (and add modifiers to them). Especially if you (like a good player) roll your attack and damage in the same roll. The second instance will certainly slow down the game (which is a big consideration for some groups, like mine).

intuitiveness trivia: pips on a d6 are actually easier to add up than numerals.
Nom
08-19-06, 08:41 PM Especially if you (like a good player) roll your attack and damage in the same roll. The second instance will certainly slow down the game (which is a big consideration for some groups, like mine).That's something of a furphy.

If you threat, you're going to need to make another roll anyway. So record the damage you did on this roll, and then reroll both the attack and damage dice. If you've got a x3 crit, either add another set of damage dice, or just roll them a third time afterwards.

If you're doing bigger than x3 crits, you should know that this is the case ("oh, look, my pick does a x4 crit - wow, I never noticed that!"), and have your these numbers recorded ready-to-go on your sheet.
mvincent
08-20-06, 12:13 PM If you threat, you're going to need to make another roll anyway. So record the damage you did on this roll, and then reroll both the attack and damage dice.That's a good tip. Thank you. Still, my point was that the RAW method doesn't feel intuitive (otherwise I would've seen more groups using it), and I was trying to express why. I gather that it actually does feel intuitive for you and others?
cwslyclgh
08-20-06, 03:38 PM I gather that it actually does feel intuitive for you and others?it does to me at least, and I have actualy witnessed the oposite of you, I have seen many more people who do the multiple rolling method then do the role and multiply method.
Subedei
08-20-06, 04:46 PM I just roll once and multiply, it's just easier and faster.

Though if you are going to roll additional dice on criticals you should have the sum of your modifiers written down for ease of use. That way it'll be 3d8+36 instead of 1d8+1d8+1d8+12+12+12 etc. That extra step of pulling everything together takes extra time.
Robert Craven
08-20-06, 05:16 PM On average it will be the same. But your damage will be more stable if you roll twice. When multiplying you will increase you chance to get maximum damge but on the other side, you increase the chance to get minimum too. If you roll two dice, you will most likely get some medium damage while maximum and minimum damage will show up seldom.

The more dice you have, and the higher the mulplier this gets more and more obvisious.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rjmgsouthard 08-17-06, 10:37 PM	I recently re-read some of the players handbook and realized that I have been doing crit damage wrong. My group has been multiplying damage directly. For example, hits with a longsword for 1d8+1 damage, with a confirmed crit rolls a 5. Thats 6 base damage, times two for 12 damage. What we should be doing is rolling 2d8+2. Does this sound about right? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?
DM Zoc 08-17-06, 10:47 PM	You have it correct now. My group had been misreading that rule for years, and it took us a while to get back on track.
tiercel 08-17-06, 10:56 PM	Yes. I have known a number of people who have played it that way (roll once and then double), and it's not terrible -- on average, it comes out the same. It means you will get more extreme critical hits though. (You are a lot more likely to wind up with 2 or 16 by doubling d8 than you are if you roll 2d8.) By the rules, though, you are supposed to roll the appropriate die/dice twice. (Note that "extra damage dice" like sneak attack damage and enchantments like flaming or merciful don't double, but non-dice bonuses like Strength or enhancement bonuses or morale bonuses or whatever do double.)
K_Man 08-17-06, 11:02 PM	We just multiply, mainly for ease of effort. We are all mid 20s in age, but only about 2 of us know how to count past 20, 21 if male, so, they just roll the base, and the two of us who can, just mulitply it out. You ever see smoke come out of someone's ears trying to add 20 and 4? I kid you not.
ShinAkuma2 08-17-06, 11:20 PM	We just multiply, mainly for ease of effort. We are all mid 20s in age, but only about 2 of us know how to count past 20, 21 if male, so, they just roll the base, and the two of us who can, just mulitply it out. You ever see smoke come out of someone's ears trying to add 20 and 4? I kid you not. Joke post. PLEASE, let it be a joke post. No, I take that back, I play with people like this, too. :weep:
rjmgsouthard 08-18-06, 07:49 AM	Thanks for the confirmation that I am a Idiot! Hehe. No really, thanks fo rthe replies.
mvincent 08-18-06, 07:04 PM	What we should be doing is rolling 2d8+2. Does this sound about right? Have I been doing it wrong all this time?This sounds like one of the most reasonable questions I've heard. While supposedly you are supposed to reroll instead of multiply (even though it's called "multiplying"), I've rarely seen this done. And when it is done, things get terribly confoosed. Trying to do this with say, a spirited charge lance crit (x5) would just be a pain.
cwslyclgh 08-18-06, 07:11 PM	Trying to do this with say, a spirited charge lance crit (x5) would just be a pain.it's not a pain... it's a reason to keep those big handfuls of dice that your wife (or at least mine) always complains about around :P
Dalthbar 08-18-06, 07:27 PM	I have a half-ogre scout wielding a keen greatsword in one game. Given my current level for skirmish, that's 9d6 when I crit - which is awefully fun. I rather enjoy rolling all the dice instead of just multiplying it out. It's also somewhat dramatic when you throw out a handful of dice and start counting out loud. It's fun watching people's eyes pop out of their head. Ever the showman, you wait until the end and say "Oh yeah, forgot to add the Leap Attack damage. That'll be..."
mvincent 08-18-06, 07:44 PM	it's not a pain... it's a reason to keep those big handfuls of dice that your wife (or at least mine) always complains about around :PPlayer: <rolling a d20 and a d8> Sweet! I just critted with my spirited, smiting charge. Lessee, that's 25 damage, x5, so I did 125 damage! DM: No, no. You have to roll for each multiplier <... followed by lengthy explanation on how to do this>. Player: Oh. Ok. Lessee, I rolled a 4 with the first d8, so let me roll four more times. 5, 3, 7, 3. Ok, I had +21 to damage, so that comes to 26, 24, 28, 24... I think. So a total of 102... wait what about the first roll? What was it? Hold on, I think if I just multiply 21 times 5, then add the 5 rolls... what were they?... lemme reroll. 6, 3, 8, 1, plus 21 x 5... wait, did I just roll the d8 four or five times? Did I even confirm my crit? <smoke starts coming out of his ears>
Mitchell 08-18-06, 11:57 PM	I have always let the players decide, as long as they announce it beforehand (generally we set it up as an either/or... You can decide how you want to do it, but you will always do it that way for the session. You can change before a game, but not during). It's really the same thing as high crit multipliers vs. larger crit range. Do you want to do a lot more damage infrequently or a bit more damage more regularly? By multiplying a d8X whatever (two or three, for a longsword or battleaxe), you have a 1 in 8 chance of maxing out, or minimizing the crit damage. By rolling 2 or 3 d8, you are more likely to come out average, with only a 1 in 64 or 512 chance of maximizing or minimizing damage. The exact odds vary according to the base damage die and the multiplier, but if someone can live with a critical hit failing to get through damage reduction, then I can live with the occasional huge hit. My regular DM feels generally the same way.
Tarsam_di_Caela 08-19-06, 05:52 AM	Maybe the players don'nt know it, but multiplying damages as in RAW is (on the long distance) better for them. Although both methods have the same average, just rolling once and multipliying increase the probability of extreme results, making damage rolls more chaotic, what is always against the PCs.
Nom 08-19-06, 09:01 AM	There are two ways to reliably do crits "correctly". (1) Know your number of dice and your total bonus, and multiply each out before rolling. 1d8 + 7 becomes 5d8 + 35. If you're in the habit of going "I rolled 7, plus 2 Str, plus +1 magic, ... uh ... plus +1 point blank, is ... uh ... 11", this isn't going to work. (2) Roll independent damage multiple times and tally results. 1d8 + 7 -> 10. That's one. 1d8 + 7 -> 14. +10 = 24. That's two. And so on.
Nived 08-19-06, 11:43 AM	Player: <rolling a d20 and a d8> Sweet! I just critted with my spirited, smiting charge. Lessee, that's 25 damage, x5, so I did 125 damage! DM: No, no. You have to roll for each multiplier <... followed by lengthy explanation on how to do this>. Player: Oh. Ok. Lessee, I rolled a 4 with the first d8, so let me roll four more times. 5, 3, 7, 3. Ok, I had +21 to damage, so that comes to 26, 24, 28, 24... I think. So a total of 102... wait what about the first roll? What was it? Hold on, I think if I just multiply 21 times 5, then add the 5 rolls... what were they?... lemme reroll. 6, 3, 8, 1, plus 21 x 5... wait, did I just roll the d8 four or five times? Did I even confirm my crit? <smoke starts coming out of his ears> Wow, that player is never going to play a wizard is he? I mean if rolling 5d8 is difficult for him how's he going to cope with 15d6 on a fireball? Oh, and on those rolls he did 127 damage, did that in my head while reading the post.
natural_selection 08-19-06, 01:33 PM	For most ppl its better to roll the dices and add the result together rather then muliplying. In the first instance you can use your fingers. Multiplying requires skills which are dying out in the generations which come after me. Thats one of the thinks I like about dnd: You cannot play it without a certain skill of maths. That makes it a better hobby than TV.
mvincent 08-19-06, 04:48 PM	if rolling 5d8 is difficult for him how's he going to cope with 15d6 on a fireball?It was simply to illustrate intuitiveness, whichis key to good game design. Knowing ahead of time that you need to roll a 15d6 (empowered?) fireball is actually easier than realizing after your attack roll that you now have to roll more dice (and add modifiers to them). Especially if you (like a good player) roll your attack and damage in the same roll. The second instance will certainly slow down the game (which is a big consideration for some groups, like mine). intuitiveness trivia: pips on a d6 are actually easier to add up than numerals.
Nom 08-19-06, 08:41 PM	Especially if you (like a good player) roll your attack and damage in the same roll. The second instance will certainly slow down the game (which is a big consideration for some groups, like mine).That's something of a furphy. If you threat, you're going to need to make another roll anyway. So record the damage you did on this roll, and then reroll both the attack and damage dice. If you've got a x3 crit, either add another set of damage dice, or just roll them a third time afterwards. If you're doing bigger than x3 crits, you should know that this is the case ("oh, look, my pick does a x4 crit - wow, I never noticed that!"), and have your these numbers recorded ready-to-go on your sheet.
mvincent 08-20-06, 12:13 PM	If you threat, you're going to need to make another roll anyway. So record the damage you did on this roll, and then reroll both the attack and damage dice.That's a good tip. Thank you. Still, my point was that the RAW method doesn't feel intuitive (otherwise I would've seen more groups using it), and I was trying to express why. I gather that it actually does feel intuitive for you and others?
cwslyclgh 08-20-06, 03:38 PM	I gather that it actually does feel intuitive for you and others?it does to me at least, and I have actualy witnessed the oposite of you, I have seen many more people who do the multiple rolling method then do the role and multiply method.
Subedei 08-20-06, 04:46 PM	I just roll once and multiply, it's just easier and faster. Though if you are going to roll additional dice on criticals you should have the sum of your modifiers written down for ease of use. That way it'll be 3d8+36 instead of 1d8+1d8+1d8+12+12+12 etc. That extra step of pulling everything together takes extra time.
Robert Craven 08-20-06, 05:16 PM	On average it will be the same. But your damage will be more stable if you roll twice. When multiplying you will increase you chance to get maximum damge but on the other side, you increase the chance to get minimum too. If you roll two dice, you will most likely get some medium damage while maximum and minimum damage will show up seldom. The more dice you have, and the higher the mulplier this gets more and more obvisious.