critical death [Archive] - Wizards Community

critical death [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
cada
08-04-05, 03:23 PM I know that if you throw critical twice and hit the third time, the opponent dies, but in my party someone has gotten 15-20 critical with Improved Critical, which produces a 30% chance that this happens, is this correct?
Dantano
08-04-05, 03:27 PM I'm pretty sure this is how it is (or at least my group plays it this way):

it doesnt work with just a threat range roll and another threat range roll to check if the critical hits. It only works if they roll a natural 20 and then another natural 20 on the second roll, regaurdless of threat range.
tarkin
08-04-05, 03:28 PM What you think you know is a house rule, and you are correct that it is easy to abuse by simply having a high crit range weapon and improved critical.

Double Crit and a confirm is just a regular critical.

The natural 20 rule that Datano mentioned is another house rule, but it is not as easily abused by people from Oz.

Even so, it makes combat far deadlier, as it is only a 1/400 chance of death and high level players can easily take 40 blows in a single day of combat, so that is one pc in a party of 5 dieing every two days of combat.
Sinaz
08-04-05, 04:33 PM And for the record, the chance of scoring a critical threat to instant kill under the house rule (i.e., 2 crits in a row) is 9% with that weapon... almost the same chance as rolling either a 19 or a 20 on any given roll.

It does sound like a powerful weapon, but hey... if the DM wants to let him powergame, so be it.
peanut35
08-04-05, 04:39 PM 15-20 crit range is possible with either a keen falchion or a improved crit (falchion). The instant death is only made on 20-20-backup, which nearing a 1 in 8000 chance.
Sinaz
08-04-05, 04:56 PM 15-20 crit range is possible with either a keen falchion or a improved crit (falchion). The instant death is only made on 20-20-backup, which nearing a 1 in 8000 chance.

ohhh yeah. I just re-read it.

So chance of a threat to instant kill whether there is a large crit range or not is 0.25% (1/400 chance) plus the final chance to hit... so against a fairly levelled foe, you're looking at more like 1/800 chance of instant kill... not 1/8000... (but then... it could be my misplaced decimal somewhere... heheh.)
Tony111
08-04-05, 06:00 PM 1 in 800 chance of death per attack roll (not per hit). (Assuming the backup roll happens half the time.

Deadly.

-Tony
Gloriam Etriae
08-04-05, 08:17 PM The instant kill variant rule appears in the DMG (p. 28). I use the rule, and modify it so that the third roll must also be a 20 to instantly kill the target (1 in 8,000 chance). In the last 3 years, I've only had one instance of an instant kill.

Running some numbers, it appears I've probably done about 130 combat encounters in 145 weekly sessions, resulting in some 10-11,000 combat rolls...so, I suppose I'm on track, statistically speaking. :)
djinni
08-04-05, 08:23 PM What you think you know is a house rule, and you are correct that it is easy to abuse by simply having a high crit range weapon and improved critical.
it's an "optional rule" and it's 2 20's and a critical hit...
peanut35
08-04-05, 08:25 PM large crit range just means the potential for more damage more often, nothing to do with more instant death. that's all, so it was a misunderstanding from the start.
primemover003
08-05-05, 10:31 PM The instant kill variant rule appears in the DMG (p. 28). I use the rule, and modify it so that the third roll must also be a 20 to instantly kill the target (1 in 8,000 chance). In the last 3 years, I've only had one instance of an instant kill.

Running some numbers, it appears I've probably done about 130 combat encounters in 145 weekly sessions, resulting in some 10-11,000 combat rolls...so, I suppose I'm on track, statistically speaking. :)
Well using the normal rule from the DMG, in 21 weeks of play and about 65 combat encounters we've had EIGHT 20-20-confirm insta-kills!!! Three of those were against PC's The rest were the Players killing my lovingly crafted NPC's:(
Father Dale
08-06-05, 06:29 PM My group plays a LOT. Usually 2 to 3 times a week for several hours each session. (we have several different campaigns).

We were using the 20-20 instakill rule for a long time.

We finally changed it because it happened way too often.

What we do now is increase the crit mulitplier everytime you natural 20. So 20-20 with a Greataxe and you are rolling to get a x4 crit instead of x3. If you 20 again, you would be rolling for a x5, and so on.

This often has similiar results to the instakill rule, but it does provide a chance of surviving. The 20-20 instakill rule is about the only thing that can kill you instantly with no save or other means of defending against it; and that generally should be frowned upon. There should always be some type of defense available.

Further, it tended to punish meleers far more than non-meleers, as they tend to take more hits than others do. Thus, a fighter who might possibly suffer 100 attacks a session would be facing an instakill every 4 sessions.

I've also seen a PC get instakilled twice in back to back sessions. Not a happy camper was he.

It is also real bad when it happens to a PC on a surprise round. Imagine being insta killed before even being able to roll initiative. You get to sit out for at least that combat, and it makes things considerably worse for everyone else.

From a DM's perspective, nothing sucks more than having a special NPC, one you spent a lot of time developing and are planning to make him a recurring villian, get instakilled when you first introduce him.

It also gets absurd when you think about the chances of 400 1st level commoners armed with slings taking out a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Theres a 5% chance that the dragon gets destroyed in the first round by the commoners! Thats just not right.

Those are the reasons we modified the 20-20 rule. Plus, its always more fun to roll the dice and see how much damage you did. Instakill is such a let down. Much more fun to roll a buttload of damage with a high crit mulitplier.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
cada 08-04-05, 03:23 PM	I know that if you throw critical twice and hit the third time, the opponent dies, but in my party someone has gotten 15-20 critical with Improved Critical, which produces a 30% chance that this happens, is this correct?
Dantano 08-04-05, 03:27 PM	I'm pretty sure this is how it is (or at least my group plays it this way): it doesnt work with just a threat range roll and another threat range roll to check if the critical hits. It only works if they roll a natural 20 and then another natural 20 on the second roll, regaurdless of threat range.
tarkin 08-04-05, 03:28 PM	What you think you know is a house rule, and you are correct that it is easy to abuse by simply having a high crit range weapon and improved critical. Double Crit and a confirm is just a regular critical. The natural 20 rule that Datano mentioned is another house rule, but it is not as easily abused by people from Oz. Even so, it makes combat far deadlier, as it is only a 1/400 chance of death and high level players can easily take 40 blows in a single day of combat, so that is one pc in a party of 5 dieing every two days of combat.
Sinaz 08-04-05, 04:33 PM	And for the record, the chance of scoring a critical threat to instant kill under the house rule (i.e., 2 crits in a row) is 9% with that weapon... almost the same chance as rolling either a 19 or a 20 on any given roll. It does sound like a powerful weapon, but hey... if the DM wants to let him powergame, so be it.
peanut35 08-04-05, 04:39 PM	15-20 crit range is possible with either a keen falchion or a improved crit (falchion). The instant death is only made on 20-20-backup, which nearing a 1 in 8000 chance.
Sinaz 08-04-05, 04:56 PM	15-20 crit range is possible with either a keen falchion or a improved crit (falchion). The instant death is only made on 20-20-backup, which nearing a 1 in 8000 chance. ohhh yeah. I just re-read it. So chance of a threat to instant kill whether there is a large crit range or not is 0.25% (1/400 chance) plus the final chance to hit... so against a fairly levelled foe, you're looking at more like 1/800 chance of instant kill... not 1/8000... (but then... it could be my misplaced decimal somewhere... heheh.)
Tony111 08-04-05, 06:00 PM	1 in 800 chance of death per attack roll (not per hit). (Assuming the backup roll happens half the time. Deadly. -Tony
Gloriam Etriae 08-04-05, 08:17 PM	The instant kill variant rule appears in the DMG (p. 28). I use the rule, and modify it so that the third roll must also be a 20 to instantly kill the target (1 in 8,000 chance). In the last 3 years, I've only had one instance of an instant kill. Running some numbers, it appears I've probably done about 130 combat encounters in 145 weekly sessions, resulting in some 10-11,000 combat rolls...so, I suppose I'm on track, statistically speaking. :)
djinni 08-04-05, 08:23 PM	What you think you know is a house rule, and you are correct that it is easy to abuse by simply having a high crit range weapon and improved critical. it's an "optional rule" and it's 2 20's and a critical hit...
peanut35 08-04-05, 08:25 PM	large crit range just means the potential for more damage more often, nothing to do with more instant death. that's all, so it was a misunderstanding from the start.
primemover003 08-05-05, 10:31 PM	The instant kill variant rule appears in the DMG (p. 28). I use the rule, and modify it so that the third roll must also be a 20 to instantly kill the target (1 in 8,000 chance). In the last 3 years, I've only had one instance of an instant kill. Running some numbers, it appears I've probably done about 130 combat encounters in 145 weekly sessions, resulting in some 10-11,000 combat rolls...so, I suppose I'm on track, statistically speaking. :) Well using the normal rule from the DMG, in 21 weeks of play and about 65 combat encounters we've had EIGHT 20-20-confirm insta-kills!!! Three of those were against PC's The rest were the Players killing my lovingly crafted NPC's:(
Father Dale 08-06-05, 06:29 PM	My group plays a LOT. Usually 2 to 3 times a week for several hours each session. (we have several different campaigns). We were using the 20-20 instakill rule for a long time. We finally changed it because it happened way too often. What we do now is increase the crit mulitplier everytime you natural 20. So 20-20 with a Greataxe and you are rolling to get a x4 crit instead of x3. If you 20 again, you would be rolling for a x5, and so on. This often has similiar results to the instakill rule, but it does provide a chance of surviving. The 20-20 instakill rule is about the only thing that can kill you instantly with no save or other means of defending against it; and that generally should be frowned upon. There should always be some type of defense available. Further, it tended to punish meleers far more than non-meleers, as they tend to take more hits than others do. Thus, a fighter who might possibly suffer 100 attacks a session would be facing an instakill every 4 sessions. I've also seen a PC get instakilled twice in back to back sessions. Not a happy camper was he. It is also real bad when it happens to a PC on a surprise round. Imagine being insta killed before even being able to roll initiative. You get to sit out for at least that combat, and it makes things considerably worse for everyone else. From a DM's perspective, nothing sucks more than having a special NPC, one you spent a lot of time developing and are planning to make him a recurring villian, get instakilled when you first introduce him. It also gets absurd when you think about the chances of 400 1st level commoners armed with slings taking out a Great Wyrm Red Dragon. Theres a 5% chance that the dragon gets destroyed in the first round by the commoners! Thats just not right. Those are the reasons we modified the 20-20 rule. Plus, its always more fun to roll the dice and see how much damage you did. Instakill is such a let down. Much more fun to roll a buttload of damage with a high crit mulitplier.