Post/Author/DateTime	Post
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 10:10 AM	A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. ... Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Anyone know how those mutually exclusive rules are actually supposed to work? They directly contradict each other.
tarkin 01-11-06, 10:18 AM	The "extra damage" referes to dice. So when you are a Rogue using a +1 flaming weapon to do a sneak attack, you would normally get: 1d8 + 2 (strength) + 1 (magic), +1d6 (fire) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack). But if you crit x2 you get: [1d8+2+1] x 2, + 1d6 + 2d6.
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 12:24 PM	The "extra damage" referes to dice. Not without some citation of source, it doesn't. It might, but your word isn't good enough to overturn the SRD. When I look at the weapon table, it says a longsword does 1d8 damage. That's its normal weapon damage. Anything else is a bonus. The first sentence I quoted said you'd double those bonuses. The second sentence says you don't double anything that isn't normal weapon damage. These two rules cannot exist peacefully.
Inigo Carmine 01-11-06, 12:36 PM	I'm not sure where in the SRD you found your quote Darkness, but the SRD I use says: Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.
Missing Minds 01-11-06, 01:23 PM	DarknessEternal quoted someone else in another thread about arcane strike and criticals. He probably didn't realize the one he quoted paraphrased the first line and directly quoted the second line for his quote. The question I have is the "enhancement" bonus being mulitplied which is how this thread got started. Also, looking at all of these quotes about what is in the SRD.. I'm starting to see in consistancy. I'm wondering if criticals are covered in more than one area in the SRD. SRD, rtf form, CombatI.rtf. Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll-another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Increased Threat Range: Sometimes your threat range is greater than 20. That is, you can score a threat on a lower number. In such cases, a roll of lower than 20 is not an automatic hit. Any attack roll that doesn’t result in a hit is not a threat. Increased Critical Multiplier: Some weapons deal better than double damage on a critical hit. Spells and Critical Hits: A spell that requires an attack roll can score a critical hit. A spell attack that requires no attack roll cannot score a critical hit. Under the SRD that I have (and just pulled from Wizards), you can see the exception lists nothing of "dice" damage, only "normal" damage. Because we all tend to agree that the 1d6 from flaming is not multiplied, it is beyond the "normal". Therefore a magical enhancement is beyond the "normal'. Tarkin's sword on a crit would be 2d8 (sword) + 2*2 (str) +1 (enhancement) +1d6 flaming. Now if the sword were say made of adimantine, yes. the +1 would be doubled as that is part of the swords normal being. I have yet to see anywhere in the SRD that defines "normal", or if an enhancement bonus is multiplied as well. I have asked 3 times now for someone to point this out in an FAQ or Errata, or even the SRD, but to date no one has.
Merestil Haye 01-11-06, 01:40 PM	I recall a discussion some time back where it became obvious that you simply cannot use the SRD from the Wizards site because it has not been updated for errata; at least not all of them. The SRD that I use says thisMultiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.That makes it quite clear that you include all modifiers to the damage. All of them. Strength, weapon enhancements, weapon specialisation, Power Attack - the lot. The SRD is here (http://www.d20srd.org/). Hope that helps.
Missing Minds 01-11-06, 01:56 PM	An unoffical, modified version of the SRD is there. Can't quite call it RAW now because its not offical. *grumbles about Wizard's incompetance again* I tend to use hypertext a lot myself, Merestil. I just never knew about the discrepances between the two. Thanks for pointing it out.
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 01:59 PM	DarknessEternal quoted someone else in another thread about arcane strike and criticals. He probably didn't realize the one he quoted paraphrased the first line and directly quoted the second line for his quote. I paraphrased nothing. I pulled a direct quote from the official SRD. I merely stripped out the irrelevant parts which you included in your quote of the SRD (it was the same quote). The SRD says you multiply bonus damage, then it says you don't. Here's a quote from the Equipment section (the previous one was from Combat) Critical: The entry in this column notes how the weapon is used with the rules for critical hits. When your character scores a critical hit, roll the damage two, three, or four times, as indicated by its critical multiplier (using all applicable modifiers on each roll), and add all the results together. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Nothing in this one says anything about multiplying bonus damage. So we have 2 occurances of not multiplying anything but the die listed for a weapon, and one saying multiply every part of the damage. So far, multiplying only the die is winning.
Gold Katana 01-11-06, 02:06 PM	Perhaps I'm not following you. It seems to me the using all applicable modifiers on each roll covers what you're asking about.
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 02:10 PM	Perhaps I'm not following you. It seems to me the covers what you're asking about. You're ignoring: Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Those bonuses aren't the weapon's normal damage.
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 02:12 PM	The SRD that I use says this. The SRD you use also says this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#criticalHits) : A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. Anything except the listed damage of a weapon is still over and above the weapon's normal damage.
Missing Minds 01-11-06, 02:30 PM	I paraphrased nothing. I pulled a direct quote from the official SRD. I merely stripped out the irrelevant parts which you included in your quote of the SRD (it was the same quote). By stripping out "irrelevant" parts, its no longer a direct quote, its paraphrasing. However... Merestil Haye, I have just gone through all Errata and FAQ for both 3.0 and 3.5 player guides. NO WHERE does it state anything about only dice as hypertext does. We are now back to square one, and at this point... house rule.
Raymond_Luxury_Yacht 01-11-06, 03:09 PM	My copy of the 3.5 PHB says dice. Since the PHB overrules the SRD, well, you get the picture.
Gold Katana 01-11-06, 03:37 PM	Anyone know how those mutually exclusive rules are actually supposed to work? Yes, everyone who has answered you here. Are you trolling? Not really looking for the answer? I don't get what you are on about - calculating damage has been explained to you. If you don't like how it works, go houserule yourself.
DarknessEternal 01-11-06, 04:53 PM	Yes, everyone who has answered you here. Are you trolling? Not really looking for the answer? I don't get what you are on about - calculating damage has been explained to you. If you don't like how it works, go houserule yourself. No one provided a source until Raymond Luxury Yacht. Is it trolling to demand rules be interpreted based on facts rather than conjecture? I'll be checking a PH soon. Update. Man, the SRD could not be worded more ambiguously compared to the PHB.
ShinAkuma2 01-11-06, 07:16 PM	I don't see what the problem is. Multiplying Damage Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. Why is there a discussion?
Crash01234567890 01-11-06, 08:13 PM	Alright it says you multiply the damage with normal bonuses, but that additional damage above and beyond the weapon's damage isn't multiplied. The example's it uses are sneak attack and the flaming ability (both add extra dice). Now under multiplying damage it specifically states extra dice are not multiplied and examples are sneak attack and flaming ability (both add extra dice). Nowhere does it mention just straight bonus damage. It also doesn't cover exactly what it means by above the weapons normal damage. I'm on the boat that a +1 Greatsword wielded by a fighter with an 18 str. has a normal weapon damage of 2D6+7. Why, because that's what the rules say are normal for his damage calculation. He adds his strx1.5 and the +1 enhancement bonus normally.
Missing Minds 01-12-06, 10:13 AM	ShinAkuma2, there has been the discussion because d20srd.org is NOT official. (The site itself states that.) The official SRD and d20srd state different things. Now, Raymond_Luxury_Yacht has come forth to say that the player's handbook 3.5 states the same thing that the d20srd states. This was the first time someone accessing a non online source that is offical has spoken up with a point of refference/clarification. This point was also apparently verified by DarknessEternal. I do not known the 3.5 books, hence I can not verify it myself. Raymond, thank you for doing the look up.
Broken vacuum 01-12-06, 11:18 AM	Something is definitely strange here. The combat section of the revised SRD on Wizards' website says: Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. The word 'dice' is there in the correct place.
mvincent 01-12-06, 12:23 PM	Here is a quote from the official SRD (http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/MagicItemsII.rtf) on the WotC site: "Additional Damage Dice: Some magic weapons deal additional dice of damage. Unlike other modifiers to damage, additional dice of damage are not multiplied when the attacker scores a critical hit."
Missing Minds 01-12-06, 01:32 PM	Ok, I think I now understand this fiasco in its entirety. Thank you Wizards for freaking sticking in slightly different rulings for the same item all over the place! From the official SRD posted above, CombatI.rtf Topic: Combat Statistics, Section Damage, subsection Multiplying Damage “Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.” Topic: Actions in Combat, Section Standard actions, subsection Critical Hits. “Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.” I think I’m just going to go with the player’s guide.
DarknessEternal 01-12-06, 01:32 PM	Just read the actual PHB. The official SRD doesn't use the same rules presented there for this, however, the PHB is the primary source and overrules the SRD.
sdragon1984 01-12-06, 02:05 PM	... a critical hit means you roll your damage more then once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is X2 exception: extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage, such as that dealt by a sneak attack, or the special ability of a flaming sword, is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. it doesnt outright say extra damage dice, but from what i read, it seems thats definately what theyre refering to. "normal damage", near as i can tell, is whats listed on the equipment table, +str, +masterwork/magic (if applicable). anything else doesnt get multiplied. but when in doubt, houserule.
Gold Katana 01-12-06, 02:45 PM	Damage resulting from feats which give a specific amount and not a range would also be multiplied - power attack, weapon specialization, etc.
Zherog 01-12-06, 02:48 PM	Damage resulting from feats which give a specific amount and not a range would also be multiplied - power attack, weapon specialization, etc. Along with Ranger favored enemy bonuses.
Ranger REG 01-13-06, 02:30 AM	I can see why DarknessEternal is confused by the texts provided in both SRD and Player's Handbook Special Edition Printing. In the Combat section of the SRD, under the DAMAGE heading it states... Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. But further down in the same section, under the STANDARD ACTIONS heading it states... Critical Hits: When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 shows 20), you hit regardless of your target’s Armor Class, and you have scored a threat. The hit might be a critical hit (or “crit”). To find out if it’s a critical hit, you immediately make a critical roll—another attack roll with all the same modifiers as the attack roll you just made. If the critical roll also results in a hit against the target’s AC, your original hit is a critical hit. (The critical roll just needs to hit to give you a crit. It doesn’t need to come up 20 again.) If the critical roll is a miss, then your hit is just a regular hit. A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. One exception statement mentioned dice, the other exception statement doesn't. A contradiction. But since I have been playing D&D Third Edition since debut, the only published precedent that I can side with is a 3.0e FAQ entry: What bonuses get multiplied when a character confirms a critical hit? Suppose a 10th-level barbarian with a Strength score of 18 confirms a critical hit while raging and using a +3 greataxe and a maximum Power Attack. How much damage does the barbarian deal? Can you even use the Power Attack feat while raging? What if the character is a paladin using the smite evil ability, a fighter with Weapon Specialization, or a rogue using a sneak attack? It’s easiest to think of a confirmed critical hit as a number of hits equal to the weapon’s critical damage multiplier. The example character is using a greataxe, which has a critical multiplier of x3, so the damage for a confirmed critical is just like the damage for hitting the foe three times. The only damage that is not multiplied in this way is damage expressed in extra dice, such as for a rogue’s sneak attack (see page 123 in the Player’s Handbook). The example character has a base attack bonus of +10, so the damage bonus for a “maximum power attack” is +10. (Yes, you can use Power Attack while raging. In fact, you can use just about any feat except Expertise while raging; see the section on rage in the barbarian class description in the Players’ Handbook.) The character’s Strength score increases to 22 while he rages, giving him a +6 damage bonus for Strength, which increases to +9 because a greataxe is a two-handed weapon. The greataxe’s +3 enhancement bonus also applies to damage, so the character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+22 (10+9+3). A confirmed critical hit makes the damage 3d12+66, just as if you had rolled 1d12+22 three times. As noted earlier, any damage expressed in extra points of damage is multiplied with a confirmed critical hit, so the extra damage from the smite evil ability or the Weapon Specialization feat is also multiplied. But damage expressed as extra dice does not increase, so a rogue doesn’t roll any extra sneak attack damage dice for a confirmed critical hit. However, some magic weapons that deal extra dice of damage do deal some extra damage on a confirmed critical hit, as noted in their descriptions. This ability is a special feature of these weapons. You do not multiply damage that has already been multiplied. If the example character were striking a foe for double damage already, you would apply the extra (“doubled”) damage only once to the critical damage. For example, suppose the sample barbarian above is an azer, who deals fire damage along with his greataxe attack. The character’s total damage from one hit with the greataxe is 1d12+23 (10+9+3+1 fire). A confirmed critical hit would make the damage 3d12+69, just as if you had rolled 1d12+23 three times. But if the azer attacks a creature with the cold subtype, the fire damage is doubled, so the base damage for the attack is 1d12+24 (10+9+3+2 fire). The doubled damage is not applied to a confirmed critical hit; instead the total damage becomes 3d12+70 (1d12+23 three times, plus one extra point for the “doubled” fire damage). Sharp readers may notice that two-handed weapons by their nature deal “multiplied” damage (Strength bonus x1.5), but this is not a true damage multiplier in the sense that the term is used in the D&D game. Thus, the extra damage from a two-handed weapon is multiplied for a confirmed critical hit.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-13-06, 10:42 AM	Base weapon damage and straight bonuses get multiplied, extra dice do not. Very simple. The SRD is the PHB (and the DMG and the MM and the XPH and some of the Epic Level Handbook). Unless someone has changed something in the former, the text should be identical. There is no primary/secondary source conflict here; they're the same source. You can't seriously prefer the obviously self-contradictory ruling over the one everyone actually uses, can you?
DarknessEternal 01-13-06, 02:58 PM	I can see why DarknessEternal is confused by the texts provided in both SRD and Player's Handbook Special Edition Printing. I'm not confused. The PHB has no contradictions in it. This question was solved days ago, just no one reads threads and feels they have the answer that everyone else missed. Good christ, this thread is over.
Tyler Do'Urden 01-13-06, 05:36 PM	You're just filled with rage, aren't you? Everything you write just emanates hostility. Take it easy. It's just a game. Relax. Breathe. Drink Coke. Smile. Cool?
Ranger REG 01-14-06, 02:34 AM	I'm not confused. The PHB has no contradictions in it. This question was solved days ago, just no one reads threads and feels they have the answer that everyone else missed. Good christ, this thread is over. Well, not to nitpick, but they do contradicts, which I thought was the reason for your dilemma. Page References: PHB, page 134, right column, under DAMAGE heading. PHB, page 140, bottom sidebar, under CRITICAL HITS heading. But since you have decided to agree with the consensus, it is a moot point. Ciao, baby. :smirk: