Critical Multiplier [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critical Multiplier [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kaladon7779
07-21-07, 07:11 PM Ok I think i know the answer to this already but I just want to clarify with everybody first.

It says that when you confirm a Critical hit you roll the weapon damage X times based on its critical multiplier.

So if a Long sword has X2 you would roll 1D8 Twice. Now the question that was brought up. Do you add all yoru damage bonuses on to each Roll? Or do you Roll all the Weapon damage dice first then add the Bonus damage after.

Like
Str 18 = +4
On each roll
1d8+4 + 1d8+4 = Total Damage

Or

After all die rolls are done.
1d8 + 1d8 +4 = Total Damage.

We've been doing the first.
AAB
07-21-07, 07:58 PM you've been doing it correctly.
Dire_Rhino
07-21-07, 08:15 PM :teach: More fully put, you roll your weapon's base damage plus any straight modifiers, but you do not roll any additional dice again, so things like sneak attack and the non-burst elemental enhancements do not get multiplied.
Chimaera2000
07-22-07, 02:06 AM For example, say you have 14 Str (+2 modifier) and you're wielding a +1 flaming longsword. On a normal hit, you roll 1d8+3 damage +1d6 fire damage. On a critical hit, you're roll 1d8+3 twice for a total of 2d8+6, but you'd still only get +1d6 fire damage.
Hapycamper
07-31-07, 08:46 PM What about a paladin Smite or using the power attack feat?

Do those also get multiplied?

Example: 3rd level Halfling paladin (STR 16) wielding a +1 scimitar one-handed who power attacks for 2 extra damage and is also smiting evil. She rolls a critical hit, what is doubled?

Base weapon damage: 1d4+1 (doubled to 2d4+2)
Base STR bonus: +3 damage (doubled to +6)
Power attack: +2 damage (doubled to +4)?
Smite: +3 damage (doubled to +6)?

So, a 1d4+9 attack becomes a 2d4+18 or do power attack or smite not double?
Nom
07-31-07, 10:49 PM Just read the rules (PH pg 138 or thereabouts, emphasis mine):

"roll the damage multiple times (including all modifiers) and total the results"
"Exception: extra dice of damage are not multiplied"

If it's included under "all modifiers" and it's not dice, then it's included in each damage roll on a crit (and thus counts multiple times in the total). Power attack and smite are modifiers to damage and are not expressed as dice, so they are included under "all modifiers".
Hapycamper
08-01-07, 09:14 AM Just read the rules (PH pg 138 or thereabouts, emphasis mine):

"roll the damage multiple times (including all modifiers) and total the results"
"Exception: extra dice of damage are not multiplied"

If it's included under "all modifiers" and it's not dice, then it's included in each damage roll on a crit (and thus counts multiple times in the total). Power attack and smite are modifiers to damage and are not expressed as dice, so they are included under "all modifiers".

I did read the rules. However I was reading the SRD rules, not the PHB rules, as the SRD is so much easier to search and view on my computer:

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it?

That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled.

It also is strange in that a +1d6 fire damage (more powerful crystal) would not be doubled but a weaker +1 pt of fire damage crystal WOULD have its damage doubled....
zelf_gale
08-01-07, 11:04 AM http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35
From the section entitled "Combat I (Basics)
Near the bottom of page 1 in MS Word

Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

The above quote clarifies the quote from the description of critical hits.

I would contend that this is a mechanical issue, not a flavor one. From a flavor standpoint it would be helpful to multiply all damage for effect, but from a mechanical standpoint it would A) require much more dice rolling and totaling and B) be harder to balance mechanics which gave extra damage dice. The game is theoretically more fun, without multiplying extra damage dice. If you are running a low powered game you might consider house ruling that it is allowed, but your campaign's monsters will become more deadly when they score critical hits. In a high powered game, I wouldn't consider it at all, due to the raw damage possibilities of critical hits from sneak attacks and aimed spells.
Platstud
08-01-07, 11:14 AM So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it?

That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled.

It also is strange in that a +1d6 fire damage (more powerful crystal) would not be doubled but a weaker +1 pt of fire damage crystal WOULD have its damage doubled....

The +1 fire damage would not be multiplied. You multiply base damage and all modifiers. +1 fire is secondary damage, it is neither base damage nor a modifier to base damage, therefore it is not multiplied.
Hapycamper
08-01-07, 11:23 AM The +1 fire damage would not be multiplied. You multiply base damage and all modifiers. +1 fire is secondary damage, it is neither base damage nor a modifier to base damage, therefore it is not multiplied.

That's what I would say, but then it is an exception to the rule of "all non-rolled extra damage is doubled.".
Platstud
08-01-07, 11:46 AM That's what I would say, but then it is an exception to the rule of "all non-rolled extra damage is doubled.".

My point is that there is no such rule. That was an oversimplification stated by one of the previous posters. The only things that are doubled are base damage(the listed dice of the weapon) and non-dice modifiers to base damage(modifiers that increase the weapon's damage by a set number and not by a die roll). Anything that adds a different type of damage(i.e. elemental damage) is not a modifier to base damage and therefore is not included.
EjoThims
08-01-07, 11:49 AM All non dice damage modifiers to your attack are multiplying.

+x enchantments, PA bonuses, non dice elemental damage, favored enemy bonuses, smites, everything.

ANY extra damage that would have modified the base attack but does not require you to roll additional dice, no matter it's source.
Platstud
08-01-07, 11:54 AM All non dice damage modifiers to your attack are multiplying.

+x enchantments, PA bonuses, non dice elemental damage, favored enemy bonuses, smites, everything.

ANY extra damage that would have modified the base attack but does not require you to roll additional dice, no matter it's source.

Here's my point: elemental damage DOES NOT modify the base damage, it adds a second type of damage.
EjoThims
08-01-07, 12:02 PM Is there a second attack roll?

No?

You mean... It's a bonus to the damage I deal when I make even a single attack with my weapon?

Oh... Sounds like it's modifying the base damage that weapon does when I attack with it.

And it doesn't require rolling extra dice?

Well then... It's multiplied on a crit because the source of the damage does not matter as long as it is extra, non-dice damage to your attack it gets multiplied.
Nom
08-01-07, 06:47 PM I did read the rules. However I was reading the SRD rules, not the PHB rules, as the SRD is so much easier to search and view on my computerFair enough. But that's the risk you run when you read an extract rather than the original. There are several cases where the SRD is ambiguous while the PH has extra example or explanatory text that makes it quite clear.
So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it?Yes. More pertinently, that's what the rules say.
That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled."Directly"? Does the SRD say "you don't double elemental damage"? No. So it's clearly not "directly" contradicting anything of the sort.

However, if you look at (for example) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll , you will see that the text exactly matches the PH text. It doesn't say "normal damage", it says "with all modifiers". The rules really are that simple.

You seem to have a different quote, but even that says "with all your usual bonuses". The words "normal damage" don't appear in there in any way.
Hapycamper
08-02-07, 10:05 AM I'll let Nom and Ejothims duke out the correct answer.

I'd lean towards the +damage (non-dice) due to any elemental form of damage NOT being doubled in a critical attack. Otherwise "upgrading" from +1 damage to +1d6 damage would stop it from being doubled...

I thought I'd run into the problem of my paladin smite... but I realized smite damage isn't "sacred" or any other type of bonus damage, just regular damage...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kaladon7779 07-21-07, 07:11 PM	Ok I think i know the answer to this already but I just want to clarify with everybody first. It says that when you confirm a Critical hit you roll the weapon damage X times based on its critical multiplier. So if a Long sword has X2 you would roll 1D8 Twice. Now the question that was brought up. Do you add all yoru damage bonuses on to each Roll? Or do you Roll all the Weapon damage dice first then add the Bonus damage after. Like Str 18 = +4 On each roll 1d8+4 + 1d8+4 = Total Damage Or After all die rolls are done. 1d8 + 1d8 +4 = Total Damage. We've been doing the first.
AAB 07-21-07, 07:58 PM	you've been doing it correctly.
Dire_Rhino 07-21-07, 08:15 PM	:teach: More fully put, you roll your weapon's base damage plus any straight modifiers, but you do not roll any additional dice again, so things like sneak attack and the non-burst elemental enhancements do not get multiplied.
Chimaera2000 07-22-07, 02:06 AM	For example, say you have 14 Str (+2 modifier) and you're wielding a +1 flaming longsword. On a normal hit, you roll 1d8+3 damage +1d6 fire damage. On a critical hit, you're roll 1d8+3 twice for a total of 2d8+6, but you'd still only get +1d6 fire damage.
Hapycamper 07-31-07, 08:46 PM	What about a paladin Smite or using the power attack feat? Do those also get multiplied? Example: 3rd level Halfling paladin (STR 16) wielding a +1 scimitar one-handed who power attacks for 2 extra damage and is also smiting evil. She rolls a critical hit, what is doubled? Base weapon damage: 1d4+1 (doubled to 2d4+2) Base STR bonus: +3 damage (doubled to +6) Power attack: +2 damage (doubled to +4)? Smite: +3 damage (doubled to +6)? So, a 1d4+9 attack becomes a 2d4+18 or do power attack or smite not double?
Nom 07-31-07, 10:49 PM	Just read the rules (PH pg 138 or thereabouts, emphasis mine): "roll the damage multiple times (including all modifiers) and total the results" "Exception: extra dice of damage are not multiplied" If it's included under "all modifiers" and it's not dice, then it's included in each damage roll on a crit (and thus counts multiple times in the total). Power attack and smite are modifiers to damage and are not expressed as dice, so they are included under "all modifiers".
Hapycamper 08-01-07, 09:14 AM	Just read the rules (PH pg 138 or thereabouts, emphasis mine): "roll the damage multiple times (including all modifiers) and total the results" "Exception: extra dice of damage are not multiplied" If it's included under "all modifiers" and it's not dice, then it's included in each damage roll on a crit (and thus counts multiple times in the total). Power attack and smite are modifiers to damage and are not expressed as dice, so they are included under "all modifiers". I did read the rules. However I was reading the SRD rules, not the PHB rules, as the SRD is so much easier to search and view on my computer: A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is x2. Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapons normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it? That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled. It also is strange in that a +1d6 fire damage (more powerful crystal) would not be doubled but a weaker +1 pt of fire damage crystal WOULD have its damage doubled....
zelf_gale 08-01-07, 11:04 AM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35 From the section entitled "Combat I (Basics) Near the bottom of page 1 in MS Word Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied. The above quote clarifies the quote from the description of critical hits. I would contend that this is a mechanical issue, not a flavor one. From a flavor standpoint it would be helpful to multiply all damage for effect, but from a mechanical standpoint it would A) require much more dice rolling and totaling and B) be harder to balance mechanics which gave extra damage dice. The game is theoretically more fun, without multiplying extra damage dice. If you are running a low powered game you might consider house ruling that it is allowed, but your campaign's monsters will become more deadly when they score critical hits. In a high powered game, I wouldn't consider it at all, due to the raw damage possibilities of critical hits from sneak attacks and aimed spells.
Platstud 08-01-07, 11:14 AM	So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it? That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled. It also is strange in that a +1d6 fire damage (more powerful crystal) would not be doubled but a weaker +1 pt of fire damage crystal WOULD have its damage doubled.... The +1 fire damage would not be multiplied. You multiply base damage and all modifiers. +1 fire is secondary damage, it is neither base damage nor a modifier to base damage, therefore it is not multiplied.
Hapycamper 08-01-07, 11:23 AM	The +1 fire damage would not be multiplied. You multiply base damage and all modifiers. +1 fire is secondary damage, it is neither base damage nor a modifier to base damage, therefore it is not multiplied. That's what I would say, but then it is an exception to the rule of "all non-rolled extra damage is doubled.".
Platstud 08-01-07, 11:46 AM	That's what I would say, but then it is an exception to the rule of "all non-rolled extra damage is doubled.". My point is that there is no such rule. That was an oversimplification stated by one of the previous posters. The only things that are doubled are base damage(the listed dice of the weapon) and non-dice modifiers to base damage(modifiers that increase the weapon's damage by a set number and not by a die roll). Anything that adds a different type of damage(i.e. elemental damage) is not a modifier to base damage and therefore is not included.
EjoThims 08-01-07, 11:49 AM	All non dice damage modifiers to your attack are multiplying. +x enchantments, PA bonuses, non dice elemental damage, favored enemy bonuses, smites, everything. ANY extra damage that would have modified the base attack but does not require you to roll additional dice, no matter it's source.
Platstud 08-01-07, 11:54 AM	All non dice damage modifiers to your attack are multiplying. +x enchantments, PA bonuses, non dice elemental damage, favored enemy bonuses, smites, everything. ANY extra damage that would have modified the base attack but does not require you to roll additional dice, no matter it's source. Here's my point: elemental damage DOES NOT modify the base damage, it adds a second type of damage.
EjoThims 08-01-07, 12:02 PM	Is there a second attack roll? No? You mean... It's a bonus to the damage I deal when I make even a single attack with my weapon? Oh... Sounds like it's modifying the base damage that weapon does when I attack with it. And it doesn't require rolling extra dice? Well then... It's multiplied on a crit because the source of the damage does not matter as long as it is extra, non-dice damage to your attack it gets multiplied.
Nom 08-01-07, 06:47 PM	I did read the rules. However I was reading the SRD rules, not the PHB rules, as the SRD is so much easier to search and view on my computerFair enough. But that's the risk you run when you read an extract rather than the original. There are several cases where the SRD is ambiguous while the PH has extra example or explanatory text that makes it quite clear. So you're saying if you have +1 point of fire energy (due to an inset crystal from the Magic Item Compendium or something) that IS doubled, because you didn't roll for it?Yes. More pertinently, that's what the rules say. That directly contradicts the SRD as the +1 is not due to "normal damage" so shouldn't be doubled."Directly"? Does the SRD say "you don't double elemental damage"? No. So it's clearly not "directly" contradicting anything of the sort. However, if you look at (for example) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#attackRoll , you will see that the text exactly matches the PH text. It doesn't say "normal damage", it says "with all modifiers". The rules really are that simple. You seem to have a different quote, but even that says "with all your usual bonuses". The words "normal damage" don't appear in there in any way.
Hapycamper 08-02-07, 10:05 AM	I'll let Nom and Ejothims duke out the correct answer. I'd lean towards the +damage (non-dice) due to any elemental form of damage NOT being doubled in a critical attack. Otherwise "upgrading" from +1 damage to +1d6 damage would stop it from being doubled... I thought I'd run into the problem of my paladin smite... but I realized smite damage isn't "sacred" or any other type of bonus damage, just regular damage...