Critical on grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critical on grapple [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
polsemager
08-22-05, 02:31 AM Help! I know I read somewhere that you can make a critical on a grapple attack, but where? My DM wants a quote before he'll allow it.

Also, I dont remember if it's the touch attack or the grapple check that you must roll a 20 on.

Please, I need help fast since we're in the middle of it!!
peanut35
08-22-05, 09:15 AM as far as i know, you CANNOT crit on a grapple, this is due to the fact that a grapple does NOT cause damage, so there is no crit, you either initiate or not, with a 1 your auto fail, with a 20 you auto succeed. Once in a grapple you can crit while trying to do damage. this is not RAW, as i do not think there is RAW for crit grapples.

Even without RAW, explain to me how you would apply a Crit in a Grapple.

In light of the following post You could rule that on a crit grapple you do damage in addition to the grapple itself. The way a grapple works is:

1. You have to hit the opponent (ie. why it is considered a melee attack)
2. If you successfully hit their Touch AC you can initiate a grapple
3. Roll and opposed Grapple Check to see if you succeed.

Where in there can you crit? Step 1? That is just to see if you can even touch them. Step 2? See Step 1 answer. Step 3? That isn't an attack at all, its an opposed check.

So, where in there is the critical possible? The first steps just enable the last step. no damage is dealt, so no critical is possible. Crit failure could be ruled as the opponent grapples you. Crit success (A nat 20) just means you are guaranteed the Grapple Attempt, doesn't even guarantee a successful grapple check, just that you can have the check. The reason why this is considered a Melee Attack is because you have to hit AC and you provoke attacks of opportunity. There is no damage dealt on a grapple, and even creatures that deal damage on a grapple must deal that after the grapple is successful, and it is basically auto damage, as there is nothing you can do about it.
kjenks
08-22-05, 10:24 AM Depending on how you interpret the rules, you can indeed have a critical hit on a grapple. The PH says a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. In any attack roll, you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20 (20/x2). Therefore, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit.

This is backed up by the old 3e FAQ, which shows that a natural 20 on a grapple check (or disarm check) is an automatic success and a natural 1 is an automatic failure; the opposed roll by the defender just sets the DC, so a natural 20/1 on the defense roll doesn't mean anything special. The old FAQ does not go on to mention that a natural 20 threatens a critical, but maybe they thought it was obvious and didn't need to be mentioned. Or maybe they didn't think it through.

The notion that a grapple check is this much like a melee attack roll is backed up in several places, like the Main 3.5e FAQ mentioning a -4 penalty when grappling while prone or the Complete Warrior description of the Mancatcher, but it's contradicted in one other place: the Main 3.5e FAQ "Vow of Poverty" entry. So show your DM these rules and just live with whatever he says.

Either way, this is not normally a big deal. The damage you inflict is usually 1d3+Str nonlethal, and doubling that is not going to change much of anything.

As an aside, by the PH rules for armor spikes, they inflict "extra piercing damage" on a successful grapple, and extra damage dice are not multiplied (on a critical hit or Spirited Charge or whatever gives you a damage multiplier). This might or might not change, depending on how you interpret the FAQ rule on armor spike damage while grappling.

Rules aside, grab him where it counts and squeeze him really hard. That's a critical grapple.

If you need a demonstration, ask your local martial arts instructor. Be prepared for pain. "See, this is a grapple (ouch). And this (oomph!) is a critical grapple. See the difference? Hey, are you okay? You don't look so good. Maybe you should sit down."

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
polsemager 08-22-05, 02:31 AM	Help! I know I read somewhere that you can make a critical on a grapple attack, but where? My DM wants a quote before he'll allow it. Also, I dont remember if it's the touch attack or the grapple check that you must roll a 20 on. Please, I need help fast since we're in the middle of it!!
peanut35 08-22-05, 09:15 AM	as far as i know, you CANNOT crit on a grapple, this is due to the fact that a grapple does NOT cause damage, so there is no crit, you either initiate or not, with a 1 your auto fail, with a 20 you auto succeed. Once in a grapple you can crit while trying to do damage. this is not RAW, as i do not think there is RAW for crit grapples. Even without RAW, explain to me how you would apply a Crit in a Grapple. In light of the following post You could rule that on a crit grapple you do damage in addition to the grapple itself. The way a grapple works is: 1. You have to hit the opponent (ie. why it is considered a melee attack) 2. If you successfully hit their Touch AC you can initiate a grapple 3. Roll and opposed Grapple Check to see if you succeed. Where in there can you crit? Step 1? That is just to see if you can even touch them. Step 2? See Step 1 answer. Step 3? That isn't an attack at all, its an opposed check. So, where in there is the critical possible? The first steps just enable the last step. no damage is dealt, so no critical is possible. Crit failure could be ruled as the opponent grapples you. Crit success (A nat 20) just means you are guaranteed the Grapple Attempt, doesn't even guarantee a successful grapple check, just that you can have the check. The reason why this is considered a Melee Attack is because you have to hit AC and you provoke attacks of opportunity. There is no damage dealt on a grapple, and even creatures that deal damage on a grapple must deal that after the grapple is successful, and it is basically auto damage, as there is nothing you can do about it.
kjenks 08-22-05, 10:24 AM	Depending on how you interpret the rules, you can indeed have a critical hit on a grapple. The PH says a grapple check is like a melee attack roll. In any attack roll, you threaten a critical hit on a natural 20 (20/x2). Therefore, a natural 20 on a grapple check threatens a critical hit. This is backed up by the old 3e FAQ, which shows that a natural 20 on a grapple check (or disarm check) is an automatic success and a natural 1 is an automatic failure; the opposed roll by the defender just sets the DC, so a natural 20/1 on the defense roll doesn't mean anything special. The old FAQ does not go on to mention that a natural 20 threatens a critical, but maybe they thought it was obvious and didn't need to be mentioned. Or maybe they didn't think it through. The notion that a grapple check is this much like a melee attack roll is backed up in several places, like the Main 3.5e FAQ mentioning a -4 penalty when grappling while prone or the Complete Warrior description of the Mancatcher, but it's contradicted in one other place: the Main 3.5e FAQ "Vow of Poverty" entry. So show your DM these rules and just live with whatever he says. Either way, this is not normally a big deal. The damage you inflict is usually 1d3+Str nonlethal, and doubling that is not going to change much of anything. As an aside, by the PH rules for armor spikes, they inflict "extra piercing damage" on a successful grapple, and extra damage dice are not multiplied (on a critical hit or Spirited Charge or whatever gives you a damage multiplier). This might or might not change, depending on how you interpret the FAQ rule on armor spike damage while grappling. Rules aside, grab him where it counts and squeeze him really hard. That's a critical grapple. If you need a demonstration, ask your local martial arts instructor. Be prepared for pain. "See, this is a grapple (ouch). And this (oomph!) is a critical grapple. See the difference? Hey, are you okay? You don't look so good. Maybe you should sit down."