Critical Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Critical Power Attack [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
dvlsadvct
11-18-05, 02:29 PM I'm fairly certain the answer is no, but here goes anyway.

Do you multiply power attack damage on critical hits?
DragonDeadite
11-18-05, 02:31 PM This is about the third time this question has been asked in the past week and it's still the same answer... YES. On a critical attack you multiply all numeric veriables, but not bonus dice. Says it in the feat discription I believe.
Tony Vargas
11-18-05, 02:50 PM Yes.

Since there are a number of non-core abilities that also effectively multiply power attack damage, (and, core, two-handing a weapon also effectively doubles power attack damage), it might be desireable to house-rule such as /being/ multipliers, so that they stack with crits, lance charages, and the like, as other multipliers do (summed instead of multiplied together). This adds a bit of complexity, since you'd have to multiply non-PA damage by the crit multiplier, determine PA damage by multiplying the PA penalty by the sum of all multipliers that aply (inlcuding crit), and then total those two plus any dice damage bonuses. (:phew:) But, doing so would reduce the potential abusiveness of combos like two-handed Leap Attacks by falchion or scythe-wielding Frenzied Berserkers. :gah:

Such a house-rule is also desireable because it's a bit difficult to tell what the RAW and errata on those PA-enhancing abilties are really trying to say... :rolleyes:
Tyler Do'Urden
11-18-05, 02:59 PM This is about the third time this question has been asked in the past week and it's still the same answer... YES.

Fourth, actually, unless I missed one (which I might have).

Numerical bonuses multiply. Dice bonuses do not.
dvlsadvct
11-18-05, 03:00 PM But, doing so would reduce the potential abusiveness of combos like two-handed Leap Attacks by falchion or scythe-wielding Frenzied Berserkers.

This is exactly the situation i was beginning to drool over. but with improved critical.
Tony Vargas
11-18-05, 04:00 PM This is exactly the situation i was beginning to drool over. but with improved critical. Sorry, forgot about Improved Crit.

This is certainly an 'ask your DM' question. Even the most conservative interpretation or house rule (like the one I suggested) is still going to leave it pretty powerful, though.

For instance, say I'm your DM, and I rule that the 2:1 ratio for a two-handed power attack is, in fact, a x2 multiplier. Ditto Leap Attack and the high-level FB ability. Therefore, I'm going to stack them like other multipliers. Thus, if you were the afore-mentioned Leap-Attacking FB, and put 10 points into power attack, your scythe crit would look like this:

10 * (1 + 1 (two handed) + 1 (leap attack) +1 (FB) +3 (crit) ) = 10 * 7 = +70 points.

That's a massive damage save all by itself; and, you'd add that to 4x weapon damage and other bonuses (likely, what 2d4 + 15 or something, at least), and 1x any bonus dice. So, probably something like 150 points of damage, or more. And that's probably the most conservative house rule you'll come up against short of banning LA & FB outright.

Now, that's a far cry for them hundreds of points you might be doing under various interpretations of the RAW, but it's still pretty impressive.
Nom
11-18-05, 04:11 PM I'm going to answer differently: No. PA bonuses are not directly multiplied. However, they are included in the damage that is rolled multiple times.

In contrast, bonus damage from extra dice is added on afterwards.

For example, I wield a +1 flaming longsword two-handed with 16 Str and PA for 2 points (+4) and get a critical.

Normal damage is 1d8 +1 (magic) +4 (Str * 1.5) + 4 (PA) = 1d8 + 9, plus 1d6 flaming.

On a critical (x2), I do normal damage twice, plus 1d6 flaming. This works out to 1d8+9 + 1d8+9 + 1d6.

The rules are quite clear: extra dice (sneak attack, elemental damage, ...) are added separately. Everything else is rolled multiple times and summed.
Tyler Do'Urden
11-18-05, 05:36 PM My mistake. This one makes it five. Two-handed weapon Crit with Power-Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=532598) - 11-07-05, 09:28 PM pwr attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=532416) - 11-07-05, 03:11 PM Power Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=534821) - 11-11-05, 04:51 PM All About Criticals (is what I have questions on) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=535058) - 11-12-05, 01:41 AM Critical Power Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=538697) - Just now.Slightly longer than a week, though.
Ravag3r
11-18-05, 07:11 PM Geez. I'd suggest that they put this in the FAQ, if it wasn't actually explicitly stated in the PHB.

Think about it - if you hit someone REALLY HARD, it's probably going to hurt more if you happen to land the blow on their face.
Earthcrosser599
11-18-05, 07:14 PM I don't know why anyone wouldn't think Power Attack damage is multiplied. Not allowing it makes melee characters suck more than they already do.
Dire Celestial Bonobo
11-18-05, 07:31 PM Now, that's a far cry for them hundreds of points you might be doing under various interpretations of the RAW, but it's still pretty impressive.

Not so much when compared to what an archer at that level would be dealing.

The Barb4/F2/FB10 would get one attack averaging 2d4 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +20 (Str*1.5) + 64 (16-pt PA) + 32 (Leap Attack) * 1.3 (Improved Critical), or 164 damage, at the cost of -22 to AC (Shock Trooper), uses of Frenzy and Rage, and 7 of 8 feats, plus all the drawback of being a FB in the first place.

A simple F16 archer would get five attacks, each for 1d8 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +4 (WS/GWS) + 5 (Str) + 1 (PBS) * 1.2 (IC) + 2d6 (bane arrows), for a damage potential of 152 points, spread out wherever needed, at full AC and without much risk of attack, using 8 of 15 feats and 160gp/shot.

YMMV, but IMHO the non-Core melee character is no more than comparable to this simple Core archer. Moreover, considering the kind of hurt spellcasters can throw down at 16th level, I don't see a problem with this guy.
Tony Vargas
11-18-05, 08:18 PM Not so much when compared to what an archer at that level would be dealing. Seems like quite a bit to me, and, it's all one attack, so DR doesn't make much difference, and if you use Massive damage... :b:

The Barb4/F2/FB10 would get one attack averaging 2d4 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +20 (Str*1.5) + 64 (16-pt PA) + 32 (Leap Attack) * 1.3 (Improved Critical), or 164 damage, at the cost of -22 to AC (Shock Trooper), uses of Frenzy and Rage, and 7 of 8 feats, plus all the drawback of being a FB in the first place. OK, that's /one/ attack, yes, which LA does require, and, BTW, his AB is just insane, with the stacked STR bonus for Frenzy /and/ Rage and, WTH, the +2 for charge. Take out the leap attack, though, and he can make 4 attacks per round, with a damage potential of what, almost 500? :rolleyes:

Now, with the fuddy-duddy house rule, above, that comes all the way down to 94 Leap Attack, 78/hit with the full attack, with each crit multiplier adding 'only' another 46 to damage.

A simple F16 archer would get five attacks, each for 1d8 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +4 (WS/GWS) + 5 (Str) + 1 (PBS) * 1.2 (IC) + 2d6 (bane arrows), for a damage potential of 152 points, spread out wherever needed, at full AC and without much risk of attack, using 8 of 15 feats and 160gp/shot. Of course, his AB is lower, since his DEX won't be as high as the frenzied/raging FB's STR, and the -2 for rapid shot.
Terraneaux
11-18-05, 08:28 PM Still not scary. A full caster of pretty much any type is more powerful than a frenzied berserker. Does not need house ruling.
Tony Vargas
11-18-05, 08:35 PM A full caster of pretty much any type is more powerful than a frenzied berserker. Casters can be abused pretty radically, yes. That something else is potentially even more broken, though, doesn't strike me as a good reason to retain a different, also obviously broken rule, even if the potentially even more broken one might be much more intractible....
allenchan
11-18-05, 09:56 PM Casters can be abused pretty radically, yes. That something else is potentially even more broken, though, doesn't strike me as a good reason to retain a different, also obviously broken rule, even if the potentially even more broken one might be much more intractible....

Meh. To be devestatingly powerful, Frenzied Beserkers normally need specific feats, magic items, or other classes in combination to be truly broken.
And, anything can be broken taking that into account.

So, to reiterate:

Meh. :bored:
Zherog
11-18-05, 10:15 PM A simple F16 archer ... + 2d6 (bane arrows),

Unfair. The Frenzied Berserker could just as easily have a bane weapon as well.

Of course, his AB is lower, since his DEX won't be as high as the frenzied/raging FB's STR, and the -2 for rapid shot.

With all the feats available to a fighter 16, I'm sure Improved Rapid Shot is one of the ones he'd pick up, removing the -2 penalty.

In addition, though, the archer can benefit from haste or a Speed weapon because he's taking full attacks. So toss a 6th attack into the mix. ;)
dvlsadvct
11-18-05, 11:06 PM Sorry Tyler for grinding your gears.

Thanks to everyone though. Now in a different thread i posed the question would the benefits of combat brute be applicable(in the 2nd round, after the initial leap/PA combo), and it seems the general consensus is yes. If that were to be true you would have two consecutive rounds of that kind of power.
Dire Celestial Bonobo
11-19-05, 12:12 AM Unfair. The Frenzied Berserker could just as easily have a bane weapon as well.

Not against every possible enemy, he couldn't. This flexibility to carefully select which arrows to use is one of the strengths of archers (although if they abuse it too much, they'll burn all their cash on arrows).
Tyler Do'Urden
11-19-05, 02:02 AM Suppose the archer does half as much damage as the berserker. He makes up for it by doing it from over 1000 ft. away. And that's just with Far Shot.

If they start out really far away, the berzerker will drop before he can get anywhere near melee. If they start out really close, the archer will drop before he can draw his bow. There's a middle ground where it's about 50/50, but it's all the way over there. I don't feel like walking that far.
Matherdon
11-22-05, 09:27 AM If they start out really far away, the berzerker will drop before he can get anywhere near melee.

FRenzied Berserker: Deathless Frenzy: Continue Fighting even when at below -10 hp, as long as you're frenzying.

So no, the zerker would not drop before he can get anywhere near melee, but he would look like a Pincushion/Porkupine(?) when he finnaly gets in melee range. :P and after zerking/dead archer: "aaaaargh" (or a heal from a divine caster before the end of frenzy)
Yaeri
11-22-05, 09:39 AM Think about it - if you hit someone REALLY HARD, it's probably going to hurt more if you happen to land the blow on their face.
Not that I disagree with the rule, nor the reasoning. But this statement makes me wonder why for example flames in ones face aren't more damaging than on ones arm.
(Flames from let's say... a flaming sword)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
dvlsadvct 11-18-05, 02:29 PM	I'm fairly certain the answer is no, but here goes anyway. Do you multiply power attack damage on critical hits?
DragonDeadite 11-18-05, 02:31 PM	This is about the third time this question has been asked in the past week and it's still the same answer... YES. On a critical attack you multiply all numeric veriables, but not bonus dice. Says it in the feat discription I believe.
Tony Vargas 11-18-05, 02:50 PM	Yes. Since there are a number of non-core abilities that also effectively multiply power attack damage, (and, core, two-handing a weapon also effectively doubles power attack damage), it might be desireable to house-rule such as /being/ multipliers, so that they stack with crits, lance charages, and the like, as other multipliers do (summed instead of multiplied together). This adds a bit of complexity, since you'd have to multiply non-PA damage by the crit multiplier, determine PA damage by multiplying the PA penalty by the sum of all multipliers that aply (inlcuding crit), and then total those two plus any dice damage bonuses. (:phew:) But, doing so would reduce the potential abusiveness of combos like two-handed Leap Attacks by falchion or scythe-wielding Frenzied Berserkers. :gah: Such a house-rule is also desireable because it's a bit difficult to tell what the RAW and errata on those PA-enhancing abilties are really trying to say... :rolleyes:
Tyler Do'Urden 11-18-05, 02:59 PM	This is about the third time this question has been asked in the past week and it's still the same answer... YES. Fourth, actually, unless I missed one (which I might have). Numerical bonuses multiply. Dice bonuses do not.
dvlsadvct 11-18-05, 03:00 PM	But, doing so would reduce the potential abusiveness of combos like two-handed Leap Attacks by falchion or scythe-wielding Frenzied Berserkers. This is exactly the situation i was beginning to drool over. but with improved critical.
Tony Vargas 11-18-05, 04:00 PM	This is exactly the situation i was beginning to drool over. but with improved critical. Sorry, forgot about Improved Crit. This is certainly an 'ask your DM' question. Even the most conservative interpretation or house rule (like the one I suggested) is still going to leave it pretty powerful, though. For instance, say I'm your DM, and I rule that the 2:1 ratio for a two-handed power attack is, in fact, a x2 multiplier. Ditto Leap Attack and the high-level FB ability. Therefore, I'm going to stack them like other multipliers. Thus, if you were the afore-mentioned Leap-Attacking FB, and put 10 points into power attack, your scythe crit would look like this: 10 * (1 + 1 (two handed) + 1 (leap attack) +1 (FB) +3 (crit) ) = 10 * 7 = +70 points. That's a massive damage save all by itself; and, you'd add that to 4x weapon damage and other bonuses (likely, what 2d4 + 15 or something, at least), and 1x any bonus dice. So, probably something like 150 points of damage, or more. And that's probably the most conservative house rule you'll come up against short of banning LA & FB outright. Now, that's a far cry for them hundreds of points you might be doing under various interpretations of the RAW, but it's still pretty impressive.
Nom 11-18-05, 04:11 PM	I'm going to answer differently: No. PA bonuses are not directly multiplied. However, they are included in the damage that is rolled multiple times. In contrast, bonus damage from extra dice is added on afterwards. For example, I wield a +1 flaming longsword two-handed with 16 Str and PA for 2 points (+4) and get a critical. Normal damage is 1d8 +1 (magic) +4 (Str * 1.5) + 4 (PA) = 1d8 + 9, plus 1d6 flaming. On a critical (x2), I do normal damage twice, plus 1d6 flaming. This works out to 1d8+9 + 1d8+9 + 1d6. The rules are quite clear: extra dice (sneak attack, elemental damage, ...) are added separately. Everything else is rolled multiple times and summed.
Tyler Do'Urden 11-18-05, 05:36 PM	My mistake. This one makes it five. Two-handed weapon Crit with Power-Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=532598) - 11-07-05, 09:28 PM pwr attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=532416) - 11-07-05, 03:11 PM Power Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=534821) - 11-11-05, 04:51 PM All About Criticals (is what I have questions on) (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=535058) - 11-12-05, 01:41 AM Critical Power Attack (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=538697) - Just now.Slightly longer than a week, though.
Ravag3r 11-18-05, 07:11 PM	Geez. I'd suggest that they put this in the FAQ, if it wasn't actually explicitly stated in the PHB. Think about it - if you hit someone REALLY HARD, it's probably going to hurt more if you happen to land the blow on their face.
Earthcrosser599 11-18-05, 07:14 PM	I don't know why anyone wouldn't think Power Attack damage is multiplied. Not allowing it makes melee characters suck more than they already do.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-18-05, 07:31 PM	Now, that's a far cry for them hundreds of points you might be doing under various interpretations of the RAW, but it's still pretty impressive. Not so much when compared to what an archer at that level would be dealing. The Barb4/F2/FB10 would get one attack averaging 2d4 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +20 (Str1.5) + 64 (16-pt PA) + 32 (Leap Attack) 1.3 (Improved Critical), or 164 damage, at the cost of -22 to AC (Shock Trooper), uses of Frenzy and Rage, and 7 of 8 feats, plus all the drawback of being a FB in the first place. A simple F16 archer would get five attacks, each for 1d8 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +4 (WS/GWS) + 5 (Str) + 1 (PBS) * 1.2 (IC) + 2d6 (bane arrows), for a damage potential of 152 points, spread out wherever needed, at full AC and without much risk of attack, using 8 of 15 feats and 160gp/shot. YMMV, but IMHO the non-Core melee character is no more than comparable to this simple Core archer. Moreover, considering the kind of hurt spellcasters can throw down at 16th level, I don't see a problem with this guy.
Tony Vargas 11-18-05, 08:18 PM	Not so much when compared to what an archer at that level would be dealing. Seems like quite a bit to me, and, it's all one attack, so DR doesn't make much difference, and if you use Massive damage... :b: The Barb4/F2/FB10 would get one attack averaging 2d4 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +20 (Str1.5) + 64 (16-pt PA) + 32 (Leap Attack) 1.3 (Improved Critical), or 164 damage, at the cost of -22 to AC (Shock Trooper), uses of Frenzy and Rage, and 7 of 8 feats, plus all the drawback of being a FB in the first place. OK, that's /one/ attack, yes, which LA does require, and, BTW, his AB is just insane, with the stacked STR bonus for Frenzy /and/ Rage and, WTH, the +2 for charge. Take out the leap attack, though, and he can make 4 attacks per round, with a damage potential of what, almost 500? :rolleyes: Now, with the fuddy-duddy house rule, above, that comes all the way down to 94 Leap Attack, 78/hit with the full attack, with each crit multiplier adding 'only' another 46 to damage. A simple F16 archer would get five attacks, each for 1d8 (weapon) + 5 (enhancement) +4 (WS/GWS) + 5 (Str) + 1 (PBS) * 1.2 (IC) + 2d6 (bane arrows), for a damage potential of 152 points, spread out wherever needed, at full AC and without much risk of attack, using 8 of 15 feats and 160gp/shot. Of course, his AB is lower, since his DEX won't be as high as the frenzied/raging FB's STR, and the -2 for rapid shot.
Terraneaux 11-18-05, 08:28 PM	Still not scary. A full caster of pretty much any type is more powerful than a frenzied berserker. Does not need house ruling.
Tony Vargas 11-18-05, 08:35 PM	A full caster of pretty much any type is more powerful than a frenzied berserker. Casters can be abused pretty radically, yes. That something else is potentially even more broken, though, doesn't strike me as a good reason to retain a different, also obviously broken rule, even if the potentially even more broken one might be much more intractible....
allenchan 11-18-05, 09:56 PM	Casters can be abused pretty radically, yes. That something else is potentially even more broken, though, doesn't strike me as a good reason to retain a different, also obviously broken rule, even if the potentially even more broken one might be much more intractible.... Meh. To be devestatingly powerful, Frenzied Beserkers normally need specific feats, magic items, or other classes in combination to be truly broken. And, anything can be broken taking that into account. So, to reiterate: Meh. :bored:
Zherog 11-18-05, 10:15 PM	A simple F16 archer ... + 2d6 (bane arrows), Unfair. The Frenzied Berserker could just as easily have a bane weapon as well. Of course, his AB is lower, since his DEX won't be as high as the frenzied/raging FB's STR, and the -2 for rapid shot. With all the feats available to a fighter 16, I'm sure Improved Rapid Shot is one of the ones he'd pick up, removing the -2 penalty. In addition, though, the archer can benefit from haste or a Speed weapon because he's taking full attacks. So toss a 6th attack into the mix. ;)
dvlsadvct 11-18-05, 11:06 PM	Sorry Tyler for grinding your gears. Thanks to everyone though. Now in a different thread i posed the question would the benefits of combat brute be applicable(in the 2nd round, after the initial leap/PA combo), and it seems the general consensus is yes. If that were to be true you would have two consecutive rounds of that kind of power.
Dire Celestial Bonobo 11-19-05, 12:12 AM	Unfair. The Frenzied Berserker could just as easily have a bane weapon as well. Not against every possible enemy, he couldn't. This flexibility to carefully select which arrows to use is one of the strengths of archers (although if they abuse it too much, they'll burn all their cash on arrows).
Tyler Do'Urden 11-19-05, 02:02 AM	Suppose the archer does half as much damage as the berserker. He makes up for it by doing it from over 1000 ft. away. And that's just with Far Shot. If they start out really far away, the berzerker will drop before he can get anywhere near melee. If they start out really close, the archer will drop before he can draw his bow. There's a middle ground where it's about 50/50, but it's all the way over there. I don't feel like walking that far.
Matherdon 11-22-05, 09:27 AM	If they start out really far away, the berzerker will drop before he can get anywhere near melee. FRenzied Berserker: Deathless Frenzy: Continue Fighting even when at below -10 hp, as long as you're frenzying. So no, the zerker would not drop before he can get anywhere near melee, but he would look like a Pincushion/Porkupine(?) when he finnaly gets in melee range. :P and after zerking/dead archer: "aaaaargh" (or a heal from a divine caster before the end of frenzy)
Yaeri 11-22-05, 09:39 AM	Think about it - if you hit someone REALLY HARD, it's probably going to hurt more if you happen to land the blow on their face. Not that I disagree with the rule, nor the reasoning. But this statement makes me wonder why for example flames in ones face aren't more damaging than on ones arm. (Flames from let's say... a flaming sword)