Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Siege Engineer 08-16-05, 06:12 PM	Some DMs use the criticle fumble rule, but the traditional "If you roll 1 in the attack roll you fumble" seems overly harsh to me. Since a 1 will come up every twenty times you roll d20, these can put heroes into very non heroic situations in an inappropriate time. For example: In a difficult combat, fumbles can be very dramatic (getting your sword stuck at the horn of a mighty minotaur, An axe shattering on the body of a golem etc.). But in a random encounter against some goblins critical fumbles can make a player very frustrated. (Tripping on the goblin you were attacking) So I've been trying to find a solution to this dilemma and here it is. I make players check for fumbles as they do with critical hits (If you roll 1 on an attack roll, roll again to see if you can hit the creature, if you do then there is no fumble, if you miss, you fumble) This way players generally don't fumble against easy opponents and have a worse chance to avoid a fumble against tougher opponents. Downside: Rolling an extra d20, but since this situation comes up rarely on combat I don't mind. I eagerly expect your feedback my fellow DMs P.S: If they roll "1" while checking for fumble I don't make them roll a third die to see if they have failed so horribly that they kill themselves instantly. :-D
Orayn, Elvish Blademaster 08-16-05, 06:20 PM	I like the idea, though I'd be more likely to situationally bend rules to prevent fumbles when they shouldn't occur. :D
HidroliX 08-16-05, 06:32 PM	We got it on every check you make! kinda deadly sometimes! But the party fighter was going to charge on his horse a evil wizard.. but he throws a 1!!! HE was so ****** of... Well he said then I take the wizard next round in a grapple! But he needed to throw another d20 to see how clumsy he charged. so he throws another 1!! you really had to see his face! :D So he says oke! i take 20 dmg! and my sword is gone! So the dm did a propsal! another d20! if he trowed another 1 he would die.. and he throwed not a 1... but lol if he throwed a 1 I think no one in the room was safe from him:P (sorry for the english!:D)
Krug_the_smasher 08-16-05, 11:05 PM	hmmm yes this is the same way my DM has it...and if you roll a 20 then a 1, it doesnt crit likewise when you roll a 1 then a 20, you dont fumble. But, if you have like a +12 to attack and you roll a 1, then a 13 is a critical fumble?? how does that make sense? Am i right or just screwed in the head for thinking this way? cause i had a charater who had a +13 to hit and he rolled a 1, and i ended up hitting myself on the back of the head with the butt of my +2 greatclub.
jazzman831 08-16-05, 11:43 PM	I used this in my game for a while. It just got boring after a while, as anything where you drop a weapon or hurt yourself ends up effecting you more as you get better, which doesn't make any sense. Also, you have to roll another dice every time you fumble, and we always would forget or not want to break up the flow of the game by rolling another dice. If you are going to use a critical fumble rule, however, this is absolutely the best way to do it.
BlackRaven 08-18-05, 10:44 PM	I use critcal fumbles in my games, but I have a check system in place just like the one to make sure you critical. Lately I've just been making sure they don't roll another 1... but I think that's a little weak, as it hardly ever happens (two 1s in a row). I'm thinking that it should be anything 5 or lower on the check.... but of course they'd have to roll the 1 to begin with... I've also had an idea of going with anything lower then 10 on the check, but they could add in their stike bonus (BAB+str or BAB+dex etc) to help with the check, but if they rolled another critical fumble (i.e. another 1) then they would automatically fumble no matter what thier bonus is. Dunno haven't thought about it much. I think a check system is a good idea for a critical fumble as it won't happen as much then, just as the check for criticals, but will only get harder to fumble and easier to crit as your skill increases. Makes sense to me it should work that way. Just not sure how to go about doing the math etc.
Shadowfax7 08-19-05, 01:17 PM	I make players check for fumbles as they do with critical hits (If you roll 1 on an attack roll, roll again to see if you can hit the creature, if you do then there is no fumble, if you miss, you fumble) I have been using this system in my campaign for over a year now and I find it works well. However, the penalty for fumbling is that anyone threatening the fumbler gets an AoO (if they haven't gotten an AoO that round yet or if they have the Combat Reflexes feat). If no one threatens the fumbler, then he drops his weapon. When a ranged attack fumbles on the other hand, the bow string breaks, X-bow gets stuck, sling gets tangled or a normal thrown weapon breaks.
Lionheart429 08-19-05, 06:43 PM	Ever since i started DMing, i used the following critical fumble rules. Lets say you have an attack bonus of +20. You swing, and roll a one. Now in my group, rolling a one means that you subtract 10 from your attack bonus. Would the attack hit? If the target of stated attack had ac 10 or lower, then there is no fumble. It is, in fact, a hit. But let's say they have ac 15. Now, reroll. If it comes up another miss, then it is a critical miss, or a fumble. they drop their sword, stab themselves, etc. if it would hit on the second roll, it is just a miss. With each consecutive 1, the penalties worsen. however, to balance the system, we make it possible to roll multiple crits. as in, a 20+20+19+17 with a shortsword would be a triple crit. Funny, i got one of those in a session, man was that minotaur surprised when my ranger did 72 damage. Whoo YEAH!
Surreal 08-19-05, 07:01 PM	This is the best critical fumble that I've ever seen... I'll let you figure out the circumstances behind the event: pc: *rolls a 1* DM: uh, I guess you fumble your loincloth pc: how the hell do you fumble a loincloth? DM: meh *shrug* pc: meh *randomly rolls dice, gets another 1* DM: heh, and you hit your head on the table on your way down... pc: oh for the love of g... DM: *randomly rolls, gets a 20* Dude, I think the table just scored a critical everyone else: *laughs and points* :D
Krug_the_smasher 08-19-05, 11:09 PM	however, to balance the system, we make it possible to roll multiple crits. as in, a 20+20+19+17 with a shortsword would be a triple crit. Funny, i got one of those in a session, man was that minotaur surprised when my ranger did 72 damage. Whoo YEAH! ya i once saw a friend roll 4 19's in a row with a +2 bastard sword. he did like 150 damage in one round. showed that hobgoblin! (would have been really cool except for the hobgoblin thingy-he had like 8HP to start with) another time we were fighting a bearded devil, and my fighter tripped it, so it decided to summon extraplanar ally and that provokes an AoO which 3/4 chars crited him on. We did about 200 damage between the 3 of us. (one cleric was using a scythe) showed him :P i know it is a little off topic, but it was just so awesome!
UZI 08-20-05, 12:46 PM	Rolling a 1 results in a dropped weapon if you fail the DC 10 reflex save. I've had high dexterity, mid-level rogues fumble by rolling a 1 on the reflex save.
Rulebook 08-20-05, 01:45 PM	we use the Triple-20 = insta kill, Triple-1 = insta you die. a single one is like a botch threat. you lose the rest of your round, and/or drop your weapon, then roll again. a second 1 means youve stabbed either yourself or your buddy. the third means a critical hit to a vital area, resulting in your demise. this has only happened in our games twice. one to an enemy, once to a player.
Memnoch138 08-20-05, 04:46 PM	Since a 1 will come up every twenty times you roll d20, these can put heroes into very non heroic situations in an inappropriate time. Yes, that's exactly what happens IMO. The point is, if you're a high level character with a BAB of, let's say, +20, connecting with a hit is not a big worry for you. However, the randomness the dice allows for adding realism to a hectic situation like combat levels the playing field a little bit. There's always a chance that even the mightiest character might lose his grip on his sword or twist an ankle. Just because you're fighting an opponent you don't want to get between a rock and a hard place with doesn't mean you deserve any special favor to get out of danger. It doesn't matter if you're fighting kobolds or a dragon. Just because you'd rather not fumble fighting the dragon doesn't mean you should bend the rules to make it less likely. Then again, we are talking house rules.
Dantano 08-20-05, 08:04 PM	I've been thinking about it too. Theres a variant rule in the DMG (at least in 3.0 anyway) about fumble criticals saying that if you roll a 1 you have to make a reflext save of 10 or else you fumble and the DM just makes up whatever happens. When you get to a higher level though it becomes easy usually even for people with bad reflex saves. So I was thinking increase the save once every two levels so that it goes up with their save so that theres always a chance, but people with high saves and high stats will be able to save easier so they have that edge cause of tgheir high stats. Or maybe increase it slower so that higher level characters do it less but they still have a good chance. I like having both kind of criticals cause I think randomness makes battles more interesting, big battles would be really random. It gives the fights flavor.
bondious 08-21-05, 05:17 PM	I like this Critical Fumble system. I've been a DM for pretty much my entire D&D playing life, and have always used the straight up "1" to be a dropped weapon. One game, some time back, changed my opinion of this rule. I had a fighter who, due to paranoia, carried around like 6 longswords everywhere he went! And once, in a single combat, he 5 seperate 1's and dropped 5 of those 6 swords! From then on I decided there had to be some kind of chance to not drop these swords, and find this critical fumble system to be adequate. Also, this system applies to the villains I throw at my players. One time I had this buffed out half-black dragon fighter who was pretty much going to cut a bloody swath right through their little group. He got initiative, charged while drawing his sword, swung...and rolled a 1! He dropped his sword right in front of that group's fighter! And, after like 5 minutes of my players laughing at me and scoffing at my "buff-ass fighter", they proceeded to pummel and pump him full of arrows before he could ever really mount an offense. Kinda immasculating, huh? :doh:
Dragonsblood 08-21-05, 08:38 PM	Here's another idea - DON'T USE CRITICAL FUMBLES. If you want your drama, role-play out regular combat. But keep the mechanics core with no varients that hurt the PCs more than monsters.
Dark_Druid 08-22-05, 09:17 AM	Yeah, I don't use any of those rules, I just call it, and since i'm "god" what I say goes... If a player has been doing great and playing his character smart (or realistically based on his stats and skills) and he goofs on a "1", I give him some harmless thing that cam be rectified in a round or so and basically means just that one attack misses and he's ueless for a standard action or has to spend the rest of the round recoverying a dropped weapon. examples: -"Your greatsword connects with the Hobgoblin's full-plate but painful reverberations echo in the steel of your weapon." [no dmg to anyone, one action used and nulled] -"Your hands lose grip on the hilt of your short sword and the blade flies to the ground 20 feet away." [Walk over a pick it up. One action] If a player needs harsher penalties for his rolls, I just come up with some interesting consequences for the roll (a bit painful, but never deadly) -"The spear bends against the armor of the Giant and comes back smacking you in the face. Take one damage and your nose is broke." And if I am feeling especially saucy, bad things can happen too: -"You miss your target but you punch Tobais [another PC, who was flanking] in the face when the ruffian dodged your blow. Roll damage for your spiked knuckles." I just call it. That way no player can gauge the outcome til it happens. I don't want a player losing the mood or his morale because he sees that "1" come up. I want him to wonder how bad he F'ed up and what's it going to cost. Some times they laugh, some times they cry. Some times they start fights for mis-placed blows...who knows. It makes it funner IMO.
tarkin 08-22-05, 11:02 AM	I use the official method listed in the DMG Roll a natural 1 and you must make a Dex check, DC = 10. Failed = drop your weapon (no effect for a natural weapon/unarmed attack) Simple, playable, fair.
Nived 08-22-05, 11:12 AM	It slows down game (in the case of making reflex saves) or it just doesn't make sense. Why would a higher level character be MORE likely to Crit Fumble than a 1st level character? "But Nived," you say, "They're actually just as likely a 5% chance on a d20 roll." Correct... except a 18th level TWF ranger is going to be rolling a lot more d20s than a first level fighter. Thereby increading the chances each round they 'drop their sword' 'stab themselves' etc etc etc. I used to go with Crit fumble rules, hell I even had a 'happy/sad face' d6 specifically for it... but as the characters got into higher level play it just seemed silly and unbalanced. A Fighter has enough problems keeping up with a high level caster without having to worry about impailing themselves on their flaming burst longsword. So I switched to the real rules... not the 'official varients' the real rules. attack rolls 20 always hits, 1 always misses. Skills you roll a 1 and have enough ranks you can still make a DC... that's right, you can be so good you can't fail. Simple and it keeps the game moving rather than stopping dramatic battle scenes to describe how a paladin hits the ground with his lance and polevaults off his horse... even if it was funny that one time.
Sinaz 08-22-05, 04:13 PM	It slows down game (in the case of making reflex saves) or it just doesn't make sense. Why would a higher level character be MORE likely to Crit Fumble than a 1st level character? "But Nived," you say, "They're actually just as likely a 5% chance on a d20 roll." Correct... except a 18th level TWF ranger is going to be rolling a lot more d20s than a first level fighter. Thereby increading the chances each round they 'drop their sword' 'stab themselves' etc etc etc. I used to go with Crit fumble rules, hell I even had a 'happy/sad face' d6 specifically for it... but as the characters got into higher level play it just seemed silly and unbalanced. A Fighter has enough problems keeping up with a high level caster without having to worry about impailing themselves on their flaming burst longsword. I have a fixxer for that in Redgar's Repository. As you go up in level and gain more attacks, only your first attack roll can score a critical hit or miss threat... this threat then carries through the rest of the round. So if you get 1 attack per round, everything is pretty normal... crit and crit alike. But if you get four attacks per round, and your first roll is a 20, then every attack you make that round is treated like a confirm to critical hit. I apply it to AoO too. The end result is that higher level fighters crit more often and fumble less often because they can pretty much turn critical threats to miss into half-damage hits (with my fix.) And ultimately, it's LESS rolls than normal or varient rules.
BeyondFated 08-22-05, 07:11 PM	I have use a variant that if you fumble, the creature you attacked gets an AoO. It's simple and easy. My only problem is, my monsters fumble about thirty times as often as the PCs do... :nonono:
Dragonsblood 08-22-05, 09:24 PM	But if you get four attacks per round, and your first roll is a 20, then every attack you make that round is treated like a confirm to critical hit. That's even worse IMO, unless you only give this bonus to PCs.
IceFractal 08-23-05, 05:54 AM	I use a variant of critical fumbles based on the fact that critical fumbling should not be more bad than critical hitting is good - which most fumble systems make it. When you roll a 1, you roll a confirming roll, just as with a critical hit, against the touch AC - the reason for this is that there's really no reason to fumble more against a heavily armored opponent, whereas a more dextrous opponent actually might make you slip up. If the confirming roll hits, then the attack was simply a miss. If the confirming roll misses, then it was a critical fumble. On a critical fumble, many different things can happen. However, they all have the same effect in game mechanics: you lose your next attack - specifically, the next attack you make automatically misses. You can clear this auto-miss away by refocussing (full-round action). As to why you missed, that's the flavor right there. Maybe you started to drop your weapon and had to dive for it, maybe you overthrust and it got stuck in the wall, maybe you swung too hard and got dizzy, or whatever else could happen. Now to the people who are now claiming this variant has too little impact: It has exactly the same impact as a critical hit. A critical hit with a x2 multiplier is equal to an extra attack, although not as good in some ways because you don't multiply all damage. Abilities that activate on a critical are the exception to this, but on the other hand you can't Grapple/Trip/Disarm with it, so that balances out. Now presumably, most weapons are made not to maim the user. Therefore, they would all have fumble ranges comparable to 20/x2 weapons - e.g. missing one extra attack. If you don't mind a little bit of complexity, you can also use the related rule on improvised and non-proficient weapons. Improvised or non-proficient weapons are more prone to fumbling. They either threaten to fumble on a 1 or 2, or they make you lose 2 attacks when you do fumble. Also, you could use this fumbling range/modifier as a way to balance certain weapons: Want an oversized, spiked greataxe that does 2d8 damage? Well fine, but it's going to have a really big fumble range.
Sinaz 08-23-05, 11:39 AM	That's even worse IMO, unless you only give this bonus to PCs. The bonus goes to everyone, PC's and Creatures alike... balances itself out, and works awesome in our campaign.
Krug_the_smasher 08-24-05, 07:51 PM	my idea for doing this incorporates the chance of another crit hit/fumble happening when the confirmation is rolled. When a 1 is rolled for attack, a confirmation is rolled(DC 10). if this passes, then the person just misses. if the person fails the confirmation, he hits himself. if the confirmation is a 1, then he crits himself and must roll a confirmation(DC15). if this is failed, he crits himself, but if it is a 1, he doubles the crit multiplyer.(a scythe would be x8 crit.) same goes for a 20. the 20 is rolled, then the confirmation(DC10), then if it is a 20, another confirmation(DC15) and if it is a 20 then he doubles his crit multiplyer. This works well, and applies to all PC's and NPC's. If you have any questions, by all means fire away!
Sinaz 08-24-05, 08:06 PM	my idea for doing this incorporates the chance of another crit hit/fumble happening when the confirmation is rolled. When a 1 is rolled for attack, a confirmation is rolled(DC 10). if this passes, then the person just misses. if the person fails the confirmation, he hits himself. if the confirmation is a 1, then he crits himself and must roll a confirmation(DC15). if this is failed, he crits himself, but if it is a 1, he doubles the crit multiplyer.(a scythe would be x8 crit.) same goes for a 20. the 20 is rolled, then the confirmation(DC10), then if it is a 20, another confirmation(DC15) and if it is a 20 then he doubles his crit multiplyer. This works well, and applies to all PC's and NPC's. If you have any questions, by all means fire away! I'm going to opine as I have done towards others who use self-hits and self-crits before... I find this idea to be incredibly rediculous. ...before I continue, if your players actually like the possibility of firing an arrow into thier own body :rolleyes: then by all means, continue to use this system... I think in my head... when do people botch up enough to cut/shoot themselves. Not when flinging a sword around, or firing crossbolts out into the fray... that's how other people get hurt. But what I really really want to know... and nobody seems to want to answer me... is how on earth do you describe the act of shooting yourself with a bow and arrow to your players? How do you describe the act of reaping your own legs off with a scythe (which if you've ever seen a scythe, is built in such a way that you're more likely to drop it and bop your head on the handle than manage to accidentally critically REAP yourself with the blade.) Please... please explain this to me. I'd be rolled in pitch and set ablaze if I even tried to tell my players that they managed to critically hit themselves.
Dragonsblood 08-24-05, 08:29 PM	The bonus goes to everyone, PC's and Creatures alike... balances itself out, and works awesome in our campaign. Actually it does NOT balance itself out because the PCs will get hit a hell of alot more than any creature will. Meaning, there is a greater chance of a PC receiving 4+ critical hits in a single round during his/her life than any creature they face. But hey, if you think it works with your campaign, more power to you. Just don't say you weren't warned when the group's wizard dies and his player complains because of this rule.
Krug_the_smasher 08-24-05, 10:24 PM	I'm going to opine as I have done towards others who use self-hits and self-crits before... I find this idea to be incredibly rediculous. ...before I continue, if your players actually like the possibility of firing an arrow into thier own body :rolleyes: then by all means, continue to use this system... I think in my head... when do people botch up enough to cut/shoot themselves. Not when flinging a sword around, or firing crossbolts out into the fray... that's how other people get hurt. But what I really really want to know... and nobody seems to want to answer me... is how on earth do you describe the act of shooting yourself with a bow and arrow to your players? How do you describe the act of reaping your own legs off with a scythe (which if you've ever seen a scythe, is built in such a way that you're more likely to drop it and bop your head on the handle than manage to accidentally critically REAP yourself with the blade.) Please... please explain this to me. I'd be rolled in pitch and set ablaze if I even tried to tell my players that they managed to critically hit themselves. well thanks for reminding me i forgot a very important part :banghead: :banghead: when the fumble is crited once or twice, then you roll a D% to see who it hits....i think there is a diagram in the DMG somewhere.... i think it is like 0-20(front) 21-40(right) 41-60(back) 61-80(left) 81-100(yourself). So there is a small chance the PC will crit himself but he might attack an opponent or an ally. And as for the self hit with an arrow, he might get bumped and shoot at a 90 degree angle from the point of gravity on whatever planet he is on and it comes back down and hits him on the head. or he just spikes it through his hand and stumbles off a cliff.....whatever.
Sinaz 08-25-05, 01:30 AM	And as for the self hit with an arrow, he might get bumped and shoot at a 90 degree angle from the point of gravity on whatever planet he is on and it comes back down and hits him on the head. or he just spikes it through his hand and stumbles off a cliff.....whatever. ... :confused: ... seriously... w...t...f??? :ahem:
yrogerg 08-25-05, 10:16 AM	I But what I really really want to know... and nobody seems to want to answer me... is how on earth do you describe the act of shooting yourself with a bow and arrow to your players? How do you describe the act of reaping your own legs off with a scythe (which if you've ever seen a scythe, is built in such a way that you're more likely to drop it and bop your head on the handle than manage to accidentally critically REAP yourself with the blade.) It's actually possible for the arrow to snap and impale your bow hand. My EMT textbook has some (predicably gory) photographs of someone that happened to. And, yeah, you could just get bumped and accidentally shoot yourself in the foot.
Sinaz 08-25-05, 11:56 AM	It's actually possible for the arrow to snap and impale your bow hand. My EMT textbook has some (predicably gory) photographs of someone that happened to. And, yeah, you could just get bumped and accidentally shoot yourself in the foot. Good to know. But would that be critical? I still have to roll my eyes at the notion of firing an arrow stright up and then standing around for it to impale your own head. I'm sure it happens... but to idiot drunk rednecks and bored kids... not to seasoned archers (I hope.) I'm thinking about a moment from fantasy fiction when someone critted themselves with thier own sword and the closest I can come to is when lancelot rolled over on Excalliber in his sleep... lol... ok, it didn't quite happen that way... but it's the only example I can think of.