Post/Author/DateTime	Post
jaelis 06-04-07, 07:36 PM	I'm tired of having to look up the grapple rules all the time, so I thought about how they might be simplified. I came up with something that seems OK, but I'd appreciate some other opinions. Grapple Checks: Grapple checks are made using your unarmed strike's attack bonus, but with the standard grapple size modifier (+/- 4 per size from medium) applied instead of your normal size modifier. Abilities that modify your unarmed strike apply to your check, including Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (unarmed strike), or an amulet of mighty fists. Starting a Grapple: To start a grapple you make a touch attack with your unarmed strike. This provokes an AoO from your opponent, but being hit by the AoO doesn't stop the grapple. A successful touch establishes the grapple. You don't require a grapple check, and you don't do any damage. You can't start a grapple with someone more than one size larger than you. In a grapple: You can do pretty much anything you can usually do, with the following limitations: - You don't threaten creatures that aren't in the grapple. - Most move actions (moving, standing up, drawing a weapon, opening a door, etc) require a grapple check against all opponents in the grapple. If you move, you must carry or drag your opponents with you, using the normal rules for carrying weight. - You can't attack with a 2H, 1H, or ranged weapon. You can attack with light or natural weapons, but take a -4 penalty. Unarmed strikes and armor spikes have no penalty. - You must make a Concentration check to cast any spell or spell-like ability (DC = 20+spell level). If the spell has somatic and/or material components, you must also succeed on a grapple check. Note that you keep your Dex bonus to AC. You can escape the grapple with a move action and a grapple check against all opponents in the grapple. You may use an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check, but this requires a standard action. Pinning: You can pin your opponent in a grapple as a standard action. You must succeed on a grapple check against that opponent. A pinned character loses his Dex bonus to AC, takes an additional -4 penalty to AC, and cannot speak unless his opponent allows it. While pinned, the only actions you can take are purely mental ones, such as activating a spell-like ability, or to attempt to escape the pin. Escaping requires a move action and a successful grapple check. You may use an Escape Artist check in place of your grapple check, but this requires a standard action. If you escape the pin, you are still grappling. If you are pinning someone, you must take a standard action each round to maintain the pin, but no grapple check is required. You can also move the grapple as described above. You can release the pin as a free action, leaving you and your opponent still grappling. Finally, you can eject your opponent from the grapple by tossing him into an adjacent square of your choice. This requires a move action and a grapple check against all opponents in the grapple. Monsters: I play that monsters that can't wield manufactured weapons don't have unarmed strikes. Instead they use their primary natural weapon's attack bonus for their grapple check (adjusted by the special size modifier) and for the touch to start a grapple. Otherwise they follow the same rules for grappling as regular characters. Improved Grab The Improved Grab ability lets you start a grapple whenever you hit with your natural weapon, with no touch attack, attack of opportunity, or grapple check required. While grappling, you take no attack penalty for natural weapons to which Improve Grab applies. Otherwise, you can follow the same rules as above. Alternatively, Improve Grab gives you the option to take a -20 penalty on your grapple checks and hold your opponent with just your weapon. In this case you aren't considered grappling but your opponent is. You can move without making a grapple check, though you must still carry or drag your opponent's weight. You do not threaten with the weapon you are using for the grapple, but can use that weapon to attack your opponent at no penalty. Your other weapons threaten as usual and can be used to attack any character with no penalty. You can pin your opponent by making a grapple check (at -20). This requires no action, but prevents you from attacking with your weapon that round. Maintaining the pin in later rounds also requires no action but prevents you from attacking with your weapon. You decide which form of grappling to use when you initiate the grapple. If you have multiple weapons to which Improved Grab applies, you can hold multiple opponents, but no opponent can be held by more than one weapon. It is possible to hold one opponent with just your weapon and at the same time grapple another opponent using the regular rules. Swallow Whole Swallow whole is essentially unchanged. It lets you swallow a creature that you hold in your mouth with a grapple check, as if you were pinning him. Constrict The Constrict ability lets you deal constriction damage whenever you establish or maintain a pin. Rake Rake is unchanged, you get extra attacks while you're grappling. ----- I think this lets people do what I think grapplers should be able to do, and doesn't vastly change the balance around. Does it seem fair? Are there other grappling rules/abilities that it fails to interface with?
ScipioX 06-05-07, 01:07 AM	natural weapons take a -4 penalty. That's a rule thats just silly. Most monsters don't really grapple you, they just shred you with their claws and teeth. It definitely shouldn't be harder to claw you, it should probably be easier.
jaelis 06-05-07, 06:36 AM	I see what you mean. But I left it in for balance, and I think it is probably necessary. And note that monsters with Improved Grab don't take that penalty. (Anyway, I guess its less silly than the current rules where natural weapons take a -4 penalty and you can only attack with one of them per round!)
Axiomatic_vampire 06-05-07, 07:03 AM	I'm trying to grapple with your grapple rules. I think I failed my unarmed strike touch attack.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 10:53 AM	Changing the graple rules is VERY risky. There are to many feats that affect how it is done. This is not a shot, but it would be better if you took the time to understand the rules. A few months ago my group and I came across the same problem. (I found the Vampire Teeth graft in Libiris Mortis.) Upon disecting the problems that we were having, I noticed that the biggest wasn't the actual rules, but rather when to apply them. To solve this problem I made a sheet in excel (great for making forms) that showed a characters grapple options relative to thier current condition while grappling. This makes life a lot easier. When two characters start a grapple check, we remove the miniatures from the table and replace them with a die (they should be in one square if the grapple check succedes.) Then each miniature is place on the 'Start a Grapple' section of my sheet. There is lists the options that the characters can take. There are three other 'conditions' that a character can be in; grappling, pinned, and pinning. All three give the characters different options. The sheet shows you those options, and give you a place to put your miniature to keep track. If you are interested in the sheet I can copy it as a PDF and send it to you. Just PM me and let me know.
jaelis 06-05-07, 11:12 AM	Changing the graple rules is VERY risky. There are to many feats that affect how it is done. This is not a shot, but it would be better if you took the time to understand the rules. I'd like to think I've done that, but I wouldn't be surprised to have overlooked something. Is there anything in particular that you foresee as a problem? (I'm already revising one obvious one, the reaping mauler PrC.) What you did sounds like a good way to handle the existing rules. (Though you still need to decide how they work for monsters.) But I'd really prefer a simpler system that doesn't require such measures.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 11:32 AM	I'd like to think I've done that, but I wouldn't be surprised to have overlooked something. Is there anything in particular that you foresee as a problem? (I'm already revising one obvious one, the reaping mauler PrC.) What you did sounds like a good way to handle the existing rules. (Though you still need to decide how they work for monsters.) But I'd really prefer a simpler system that doesn't require such measures. One problem I see is allowing a Pin as a standard action. This would allow me, with my Vampire Teeth to Pin you in one try, rather than two. You just made it much easier for me to bite you. All Monsters have a grapple check. It is already written in their stats. I don't see why this would be a problem. They can attack with there natural weapons as per light weapon rules or any grapple abilities that they have based on their description. Once I pin someone you are allowing me, as a free action, to throw someone 5 feet. This is going to be a problem when someone in your game throws a character or BBEG off a cliff or wall in the first round of a fight. Move - Pin - Throw "thanks for the XP" You changed grapple checks from Melee attacks IE up to 4 per round, to move actions. As characters gain levels they will no longer get more attempts to grapple. This increases the strength of Escape Artist. You can now use it the same amount of times in a round as someone that grapples. Haste and other attack increasing spells/abilities are now reduced becuase characters will not get another attack. These abilities do not give extra Move actions. Armor Spikes have no penalty. How about the Cestus? What about spiked shields? Your Improved Grab feat is HUGE for creatures, but junk for PCs. Very few PCs can take -20 on a grapple check and win, but a creature, especially multi limbed large a larger creatures are going to destroy your PCs. To maintain a Pin, using your rules, you need to use a standard action. That stops all the attacking and harming options that are normally associated with a pin. That would mean that I cannot use my Vampire Teeth using your rules. These are the problems/unresolved issues that I find without testing anything. That is why I say it is VERY risky to change rules, especially of this nature.
jaelis 06-05-07, 12:12 PM	One problem I see is allowing a Pin as a standard action. This would allow me, with my Vampire Teeth to Pin you in one try, rather than two. You just made it much easier for me to bite you. In the current rules you can pin in place of an attack, so I would rather say I made it a bit harder? The normal rules allow you to go from not grappling to pinned in one round, mine take at least two. You do need to be grappling first in order to pin, maybe I wasn't clear about that. Once I pin someone you are allowing me, as a free action, to throw someone 5 feet. This is going to be a problem when someone in your game throws a character or BBEG off a cliff or wall in the first round of a fight. It takes a move action and a grapple check to do this, though I see my wording again wasn't so clear. I actually tried to conciously make it about as hard to do it with a grapple as it would be with a bull rush. (At least, fairly similiar checks are involved.) I would also grant a Reflex save to catch onto the edge of the cliff, as I would also do for a bull rush. You changed grapple checks from Melee attacks IE up to 4 per round, to move actions. As characters gain levels they will no longer get more attempts to grapple. This increases the strength of Escape Artist. You can now use it the same amount of times in a round as someone that grapples. Note that you also use grapple checks for fewer things. The main point I worry about is escaping a grapple, since you'll have only two chances, instead of up to four. But on the other hand, those two are at your full BAB, so I'm not sure it's so different. (And of course, you can take two grapple checks in round, but only one Escape Artist check, so the grappler still has a noticable advantage.) Haste and other attack increasing spells/abilities are now reduced becuase characters will not get another attack. These abilities do not give extra Move actions. True, though they'd still be able to make an extra attack if they attack. That's a point I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure I'm too worried... hmm. Armor Spikes have no penalty. How about the Cestus? What about spiked shields? Only armor spikes are special. They are the only special grapple weapon in the current rules that I know about. Your Improved Grab feat is HUGE for creatures, but junk for PCs. Very few PCs can take -20 on a grapple check and win, but a creature, especially multi limbed large a larger creatures are going to destroy your PCs. It's not a feat, it's a monster ability. This is in fact how Imp Grab currently works... I actually tried to tone it down by removing the ability to damage with grapple checks and removing a monsters ability to make iterative grapple checks on top of their natural weapon attacks. I could nerf it further, but I'm inclined to see how this goes first. To maintain a Pin, using your rules, you need to use a standard action. That stops all the attacking and harming options that are normally associated with a pin. That would mean that I cannot use my Vampire Teeth using your rules. I don't know how your vampire teeth work, so I can't really respond. But real vampires just have to maintain a pin to drain blood, which my rules handle. (Again, they are nerfed a bit since they have to take a standard action to do it... they can't drain blood and attack you at the same time.) How does your item work? These are the problems/unresolved issues that I find without testing anything. Thanks very much for the comments, they are helpful.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 03:41 PM	The Vampire Teeth from Libiris Mortis allow you to make a bit attack as a standard action while pinning someone. As following your rules makes it a standard action to hold a pin, no one could use the teeth. The RAW do not require a grapple check to maintain a pin. It is the responsiblity of the pinned character to break it. Here you take away most of the reasons someone would pin. If I cannot attack, why would I bother. I think it would be better to hold my action and crush any caster foe while he tries to cast a spell, I should just remain grappled. I didn't even notice before that you took out the size modifier and replaced it with another modifier, but you did not define what the new modifer is. Grapple checks are made using your unarmed strike's attack bonus, but with the special grapple size modifier applied instead of your normal size modifier. Are you trying to say that a character uses the normal opposed roll modifier of +/- 4/size from medium? Armor Spikes add damage to normal grapple checks made to damage an opponent. This is an opposed check. Did you change it to an attack? That is what I gather from your post. In the RAW/Rules of the Game, when releasing someone from a pin the pinner chooses which square to enter, not which square to thow his opponent. You say that grappling opponents do not threaten others. Does that mean that they threaten each other? Can a grappler now make AoOs against the other? There is no opposed grapple check to start the grapple? It is just a touch attack? You allow that attack to be modified to make it easier for the attacker? This in itself breaks your entire system. In most cases any creature that you use grapple with will only need a 5 or so to hit. The only chance a PC would have is to beat the opposed roll, which you do not allow. I am sorry, but I believe your system is still completely broken. The RAW/Rules of the Game are complicated, but they fit the style and mechanics of the game. You change the attacks per round, the effect of spells and abilities as well as the actions available in a grapple. I can not think of many more ways to break the system. Of course it is your game, and play however it is fun for you, but make sure all your players are familar with these rules. And when inviting new players to join you, send this to them BEFORE they make a character as it changes a lot of how the game can be played. Happy Gaming!
jaelis 06-05-07, 04:00 PM	The Vampire Teeth from Libiris Mortis allow you to make a bit attack as a standard action while pinning someone. Yes, that would have to change. The RAW do not require a grapple check to maintain a pin. It is the responsiblity of the pinned character to break it. Actually, by RAW pins only last one round. I didn't even notice before that you took out the size modifier and replaced it with another modifier, but you did not define what the new modifer is. Are you trying to say that a character uses the normal opposed roll modifier of +/- 4/size from medium? Yes, I should have referenced the PHB text. Armor Spikes add damage to normal grapple checks made to damage an opponent. This is an opposed check. Did you change it to an attack? That is what I gather from your post. Yes. I aimed to replace the "damage with a grapple check" option with "attack with no penalty" because it seems simpler to me. In the RAW/Rules of the Game, when releasing someone from a pin the pinner chooses which square to enter, not which square to thow his opponent. Actually, the RAW aren't very clear about it as far as I know. You say that grappling opponents do not threaten others. Does that mean that they threaten each other? Can a grappler now make AoOs against the other? Correct. There is no opposed grapple check to start the grapple? It is just a touch attack? You allow that attack to be modified to make it easier for the attacker? This in itself breaks your entire system. In most cases any creature that you use grapple with will only need a 5 or so to hit. The only chance a PC would have is to beat the opposed roll, which you do not allow. Well, in my experience a character is more likely to dodge the touch attack than to beat the grapple check in most situations. But undeniably, it is easier to enter a grapple with these rules. To compensate, the effects of being in a grapple are less dramatic. I am sorry, but I believe your system is still completely broken. The RAW/Rules of the Game are complicated, but they fit the style and mechanics of the game. You change the attacks per round, the effect of spells and abilities as well as the actions available in a grapple. I can not think of many more ways to break the system. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by "broken". It is clearly different, and I meant it to be. But I hope that it doesn't significantly alter the effectiveness of a grappler in combat, for better or worse. Of course it is your game, and play however it is fun for you, but make sure all your players are familar with these rules. And when inviting new players to join you, send this to them BEFORE they make a character as it changes a lot of how the game can be played. Of course.
Knightblde 06-05-07, 04:05 PM	WOW, you are the first person to take my critique as critique. Hat off to you sir! The part about leaving the pin is in Rules of the Game: All about Grappling. It is 4 parts, and took 9 pages when I combined them. It was a lot! Happy Gaming!
jaelis 06-07-07, 08:57 AM	Anyone else want a chance to point out the flaws in my approach?