Crits question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Crits question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
qlawdat
07-18-07, 11:23 PM Ok I understand that having an item (say a rapier) with a crit range of of 14-20/x2 would be kind of over powered. But I like that idea of a character, that if he spends a great deal of money/feats would be allowed to crit a lot. I am currently unaware of any way to increase (or to have "stack) different threat range modifiers ie; improved critical and the keen ability dont work together in 3.5. But I don't have a problem with it at the end of the day. I haven't talked to my DM about allowing them to stack, so I dont know how he is going to feel about it. So I was wondering if there are any by the books ways of making them stack that I might be unaware of, thanks.
Nom
07-18-07, 11:51 PM Actually, stacking crit ranges isn't overpowered. The issues are:

(1) hit = threat could be seen as odd, but remember that not every threat is a crit.

(2) high-range weapons benefit less from extended ranges than high multiplier weapons, since they are more likely to lose crit range through a miss.

(3) increasing range and multiplier multiplies rather than adding; this is a mechanical problem.
DM_Death
07-19-07, 01:26 AM There are NO by-the-books ways to get threat range modifiers to stack. That cheese was nerfed after gnomish frenzied berserkers used keen gnome picks with improved crit to have a threat range of something like 11-20...
Davro
07-19-07, 02:24 AM one of the cityscape web enhancements contains a barbarian class feature swap that includes expanding the threat range by 1 against charged or flat footed opponents. This states it does stack with Imp Crit or Keen.

Of course, that's not going to be of much use to anyone excpet barbarians that don't mind losing DR.
risner
07-19-07, 02:28 AM So I was wondering if there are any by the books ways of making them stack that I might be unaware of, thanks.

Keen or Improved Critical X4 Crit Multiplier item (19-20 X4)
Power Critical on it (+4 confirm)

Make it from the BoED (Solarian True-Steel) for +1 additional.

So:
Two Handed (1.5 STR) Scythe 2d4 19-20 crit range +5 to confirm.

Best 3.5 legal weapon.
bobothechimp
07-19-07, 02:34 AM Disciple of Dispater (BoVD) triples the threat range of a weapon, stacking with Improved Critical (But not Keen). Get yourself a 17-20 x4 Scythe.

Add a few burst enchantments to it for even more fun.
Phaseroth
07-19-07, 02:44 AM Ok I understand that having an item (say a rapier) with a crit range of of 14-20/x2 would be kind of over powered.

For what it's worth, a keen rapier is going to have a threat range of 15-20/x2, which is almost as good as what you said.
Leilond
07-19-07, 03:21 AM They doesn't stak not because "overpowered" but because the game designer think that criticals must be "nice events" and not "ordinary events".
qlawdat
07-19-07, 08:28 AM They doesn't stak not because "overpowered" but because the game designer think that criticals must be "nice events" and not "ordinary events".

Hmm. You really do have a good point there. I was going to say something about a character spending his whole career improving at one weapon. But I think that argument trumps whatever I would have said.
zelf_gale
07-19-07, 10:57 AM Abilities that improve critical modifiers are not overpowered because the players abuse them...

... its because the monsters do.
lint trap
07-19-07, 11:17 AM I think there's a 9th level spell from the ECS that gives a stackable increase to critical threat ranges.
foxtail
07-19-07, 11:23 AM Abilities that improve critical modifiers are not overpowered because the players abuse them...

... its because the monsters do.

Bingo. An increase in combat randomness always benefits the monsters more than the players (I think that might even be in a core book sidebar somewhere). If a PC scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the encounter; but then, the DM's always got a new one around the corner. If a monster scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the PC.
snakeman830
07-19-07, 03:45 PM Using Oriental Adventures, It's easy to get a threat range of 13-20/*2. Get Improved Critical (scimitar) (because they are better for non-finesse PC's) and go through the Weapons Master PrC. One of their abilities is free IC with your favored weapon. However, if you already have IC with that weapon, it instead increases your threat range by 2.

Can also be used with a sythe for loads of fun.
Nom
07-19-07, 11:56 PM Bingo. An increase in combat randomness always benefits the monsters more than the players (I think that might even be in a core book sidebar somewhere). If a PC scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the encounter; but then, the DM's always got a new one around the corner. If a monster scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the PC.This may seem surprising, but increasing the critical range generally decreases randomness, in the sense that it makes a critical less exceptional. In many ways, the 20/xLots crit has the same problem as the natural 1 on a saving throw - you're usually safe but if you get unlucky you can unexpectedly die. As the range increases, it becomes just another damage dealing ability that is able to be accounted for.
Tekumel
07-20-07, 12:54 AM There are NO by-the-books ways to get threat range modifiers to stack. That cheese was nerfed after gnomish frenzied berserkers used keen gnome picks with improved crit to have a threat range of something like 11-20...

I know it's Neverwinter Nights, but in NWN1 (I'm pretty sure the math would have worked the same in 3.0), I had a human Weapon Master (Scimitar), dual wielding Scimitars, both blades keen, and Improved Critical (Scimitar).

Crit Range 10-20.

Great character, had a blast with him.

Except while fighting anything resistant to crits. >.>
AAB
07-20-07, 01:20 AM yup, NWN was 3rd edition. kinda. well, they tried to stick close to 3rd edition. so you had a scimitar (18-20), keened (15-20), improved critical (12-20), and the weapon master PrC (10-20)

good ol' 3.0....
Mirtek
07-20-07, 12:16 PM See here for the numbers crunching math behind and why they should stack (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html)
Frugal
07-20-07, 02:00 PM I think the issue now is that while originally there may have been no reason to not make the change in 3.5 so they don't stack that it's now ingrained in the system and anything that works off a crit now is balanced against the assumption that you can't stack them. I'm not sure how the equation would change if you account for things like Telling Blow or other options that activate off a critical hit.
Tekumel
07-20-07, 07:10 PM See here for the numbers crunching math behind and why they should stack (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html)

That's an awesome link Mirtek, and I think I'll be sharing it with my DM. I may wield a spear, but dammit everybody can benefit from more criticals!
risner
07-22-07, 12:51 AM Using Oriental Adventures, and go through the Weapons Master PrC.

Which is not valid in 3.5, so you are back to 3.0 rules where they stack just fine. Or did you not know the OA Weapon Master was errated to be Exotic Weapon Master in the Complete Warrior in 3.5?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
qlawdat 07-18-07, 11:23 PM	Ok I understand that having an item (say a rapier) with a crit range of of 14-20/x2 would be kind of over powered. But I like that idea of a character, that if he spends a great deal of money/feats would be allowed to crit a lot. I am currently unaware of any way to increase (or to have "stack) different threat range modifiers ie; improved critical and the keen ability dont work together in 3.5. But I don't have a problem with it at the end of the day. I haven't talked to my DM about allowing them to stack, so I dont know how he is going to feel about it. So I was wondering if there are any by the books ways of making them stack that I might be unaware of, thanks.
Nom 07-18-07, 11:51 PM	Actually, stacking crit ranges isn't overpowered. The issues are: (1) hit = threat could be seen as odd, but remember that not every threat is a crit. (2) high-range weapons benefit less from extended ranges than high multiplier weapons, since they are more likely to lose crit range through a miss. (3) increasing range and multiplier multiplies rather than adding; this is a mechanical problem.
DM_Death 07-19-07, 01:26 AM	There are NO by-the-books ways to get threat range modifiers to stack. That cheese was nerfed after gnomish frenzied berserkers used keen gnome picks with improved crit to have a threat range of something like 11-20...
Davro 07-19-07, 02:24 AM	one of the cityscape web enhancements contains a barbarian class feature swap that includes expanding the threat range by 1 against charged or flat footed opponents. This states it does stack with Imp Crit or Keen. Of course, that's not going to be of much use to anyone excpet barbarians that don't mind losing DR.
risner 07-19-07, 02:28 AM	So I was wondering if there are any by the books ways of making them stack that I might be unaware of, thanks. Keen or Improved Critical X4 Crit Multiplier item (19-20 X4) Power Critical on it (+4 confirm) Make it from the BoED (Solarian True-Steel) for +1 additional. So: Two Handed (1.5 STR) Scythe 2d4 19-20 crit range +5 to confirm. Best 3.5 legal weapon.
bobothechimp 07-19-07, 02:34 AM	Disciple of Dispater (BoVD) triples the threat range of a weapon, stacking with Improved Critical (But not Keen). Get yourself a 17-20 x4 Scythe. Add a few burst enchantments to it for even more fun.
Phaseroth 07-19-07, 02:44 AM	Ok I understand that having an item (say a rapier) with a crit range of of 14-20/x2 would be kind of over powered. For what it's worth, a keen rapier is going to have a threat range of 15-20/x2, which is almost as good as what you said.
Leilond 07-19-07, 03:21 AM	They doesn't stak not because "overpowered" but because the game designer think that criticals must be "nice events" and not "ordinary events".
qlawdat 07-19-07, 08:28 AM	They doesn't stak not because "overpowered" but because the game designer think that criticals must be "nice events" and not "ordinary events". Hmm. You really do have a good point there. I was going to say something about a character spending his whole career improving at one weapon. But I think that argument trumps whatever I would have said.
zelf_gale 07-19-07, 10:57 AM	Abilities that improve critical modifiers are not overpowered because the players abuse them... ... its because the monsters do.
lint trap 07-19-07, 11:17 AM	I think there's a 9th level spell from the ECS that gives a stackable increase to critical threat ranges.
foxtail 07-19-07, 11:23 AM	Abilities that improve critical modifiers are not overpowered because the players abuse them... ... its because the monsters do. Bingo. An increase in combat randomness always benefits the monsters more than the players (I think that might even be in a core book sidebar somewhere). If a PC scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the encounter; but then, the DM's always got a new one around the corner. If a monster scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the PC.
snakeman830 07-19-07, 03:45 PM	Using Oriental Adventures, It's easy to get a threat range of 13-20/*2. Get Improved Critical (scimitar) (because they are better for non-finesse PC's) and go through the Weapons Master PrC. One of their abilities is free IC with your favored weapon. However, if you already have IC with that weapon, it instead increases your threat range by 2. Can also be used with a sythe for loads of fun.
Nom 07-19-07, 11:56 PM	Bingo. An increase in combat randomness always benefits the monsters more than the players (I think that might even be in a core book sidebar somewhere). If a PC scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the encounter; but then, the DM's always got a new one around the corner. If a monster scores an incredible critical hit, it might end the PC.This may seem surprising, but increasing the critical range generally decreases randomness, in the sense that it makes a critical less exceptional. In many ways, the 20/xLots crit has the same problem as the natural 1 on a saving throw - you're usually safe but if you get unlucky you can unexpectedly die. As the range increases, it becomes just another damage dealing ability that is able to be accounted for.
Tekumel 07-20-07, 12:54 AM	There are NO by-the-books ways to get threat range modifiers to stack. That cheese was nerfed after gnomish frenzied berserkers used keen gnome picks with improved crit to have a threat range of something like 11-20... I know it's Neverwinter Nights, but in NWN1 (I'm pretty sure the math would have worked the same in 3.0), I had a human Weapon Master (Scimitar), dual wielding Scimitars, both blades keen, and Improved Critical (Scimitar). Crit Range 10-20. Great character, had a blast with him. Except while fighting anything resistant to crits. >.>
AAB 07-20-07, 01:20 AM	yup, NWN was 3rd edition. kinda. well, they tried to stick close to 3rd edition. so you had a scimitar (18-20), keened (15-20), improved critical (12-20), and the weapon master PrC (10-20) good ol' 3.0....
Mirtek 07-20-07, 12:16 PM	See here for the numbers crunching math behind and why they should stack (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html)
Frugal 07-20-07, 02:00 PM	I think the issue now is that while originally there may have been no reason to not make the change in 3.5 so they don't stack that it's now ingrained in the system and anything that works off a crit now is balanced against the assumption that you can't stack them. I'm not sure how the equation would change if you account for things like Telling Blow or other options that activate off a critical hit.
Tekumel 07-20-07, 07:10 PM	See here for the numbers crunching math behind and why they should stack (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/rants/keenimprovedcritstacking.html) That's an awesome link Mirtek, and I think I'll be sharing it with my DM. I may wield a spear, but dammit everybody can benefit from more criticals!
risner 07-22-07, 12:51 AM	Using Oriental Adventures, and go through the Weapons Master PrC. Which is not valid in 3.5, so you are back to 3.0 rules where they stack just fine. Or did you not know the OA Weapon Master was errated to be Exotic Weapon Master in the Complete Warrior in 3.5?