Post/Author/DateTime	Post
thunder_bunny 01-08-06, 01:04 AM	Hey all, is there such a thing as a crossbow bayonet or a crossbow/spear? If so what kind of rules are there for it? On a somewhat related note... are there stats anywhere for using a bow as a melee weapon or modifying a bow to be used in such a way? matt
MobiusKlein 01-08-06, 01:27 AM	But you might try to fuss it by making it a double weapon, with exotic weapon proficiency. The main head would be a light x-bow, and the secondary part a d4 dagger type of attack. d8 / d4, 19-20x2 Ugh, an ungainly weapon.
Tetsubo 01-08-06, 01:52 AM	I have to agree, it would be unwieldy. How about just dropping the crossbow and pulling out a sword?
Andrew_980 01-08-06, 04:37 AM	Blackmoor campiegn book page 106 1d4, 18-20 x2 crit, 1lbs, peircing, 12 gp
Sae Cael Oanar 01-08-06, 05:28 AM	i disagree with that one, it has stats better than a dagger. id give it dagger stats and have a -2 roll on attacks with it amd the xbow. masterwork would make that 0, granted you could find a smith familiar with the weapon, otherwise just -1.
Rulebook 01-08-06, 06:43 AM	it dosent need a penalty on the xbow shot, putting a few ounces of weight at the end of one dosent offset your shot that badly. but an Xbow bayonet would be rather unwieldly, given the fact that a crossbow isnt that big... you might as well just draw a dagger and stab the guy (you can hold a crossbow in one hand) rifle and musket type bayonets make the weapon almost as big as a spear, and thats why they were so useful; you didnt have to be IMMEDIATELY next to the guy to hit him with it
Gilfalas_Elaandrin 01-08-06, 06:56 AM	Crossbow bayonets are very, very impractical if not totally unworkable. It is not that you cannot stick a pointy thing in the end of a crossbow. It is that using it as an effective weapons is basically impossible because of how crossbows are built, shaped and weighted. As a previous poster said, the only real reason bayonets worked on rifles and muskets and assault rifles is that they are basically improvised last ditch weapons for todays bayonets and in the case of old muskets, the musket was 4-5 feet long, heavy wood constuction with a 1.5-2 FOOT bayonet on the end, essentially making it a VERY haevy spear. I had a friend who was a Napolionic era nut and he had purchased several old napolenoic era Antiques including 2 Muskets. These things were easily 5 feet long and about 30 POUNDS. I have no idea how guys lugged these around and FIRED them, they are heavy as heck. Not having a crossbar to deal with (that crossbows do) and being longer and far less unwieldy is the only thing that made bayonets workable on the weapons they WERE put on. Frankly the crossbow bayonet was never developed in real life simply because it wouldn't work worth a poop. While I REALISE D&D is not real life some things are so basic that even in fantasy games they don't work. As for using a bow as a melee weapon (I assume you mean bludgeoning attackers with the bow) there aren't any rules but a good rule of thumb is that the bow is used as an improvised club and that it takes damage when you hit someone with it (the bow). Bows are made to be durable and FLEXIBLE but not made to bash people with. They tend to bend or flex on soft targets or get cracked or snap on hard targets. If you reinforce a bow enough to make it a decent melee weapon then you have essentially reinforced the bows flexibility straight out of it and then made it no use as a bow. There are reasons archers were not known for their melee prowess most of the time.
Watchman 01-08-06, 09:52 AM	Crossbows and bayonets don't mix. For one the space the bayonet would go in is usually already reserved for one relaoding aid or another (like the stirrup). Heck, crossbows don't even make very good clubs in a pinch. Just dump the thing and draw a real weapon, that's what everyone did. Once someone figured out you could stick a knife to the end of a musket the pike died out within about two decades - every soldier was now a musketeer and a spearman in one, and could be expected to fight effectively in hand-to-hand even against cavalry. The need to use the things as spears is probably one reason why most militry guns were so damn long - add up to half a meter of bayonet, and you end up with fairly impressive reach for the common grunt. Only the rare cavalry lances (used by some specialist light cavalry units) outreached them. Although AFAIK most muskets weighed in the environs of 6-8kg (about double in pounds) - the heavy arquebuses that required musket rests to fire effectively had been abandoned already in the early 1600s. That's still a pretty decent load when you keep in mind that the average trooper was a conscripted peasant who'd been malnourished for most of his life, and hence not exactly physically imposing in size...
Rulebook 01-08-06, 10:26 AM	dude, the M-16 gets pretty heavy after a while of carrying it. Malnurished nothing, it was a plain-out heavy gun.
CommanderFalken 01-08-06, 11:30 AM	There is a form of a 'crossbow bayonet' in the Arms and Equipment Guide. It is a magic weapon called the Bladed Crossbow or something like that. Don't remember the stats right now, and I'm too lazy to go down and get the book ;). Might post it later if noone else does.
Horatio Hornblower 01-08-06, 11:34 AM	dude, the M-16 gets pretty heavy after a while of carrying it. Malnurished nothing, it was a plain-out heavy gun. And assault rifles are light compared to older rifles! As others have said a bayonet on a crossbow isn't going to work. The best idea is to drop the crossbow and draw a sword. 1) Dropping the crossbow (or anything else) is a free action. 2) If your BAB is at least +1, then you can draw a weapon and do a regular move as a combined move action. Even 2nd level wizards have a BAB +1. 3) Melee attack as your standard action. So it's drop, move and draw, attack all in one round. No problem.
Waterhammer 01-08-06, 01:47 PM	dude, the M-16 gets pretty heavy after a while of carrying it. Malnurished nothing, it was a plain-out heavy gun. Heh Heh. You think an M-16 gets heavy,try toting the M-1 Garand around all day. Plus 94 rounds of .30-.06 in clips, to feed the hungry monster.
bondious 01-08-06, 03:36 PM	I think that the OP wanted to be able to keep the crossbow in hand and ready but STILL have a melee weapon, in a pinch. The idea presented above, to draw a dagger or a one-handed melee weapon and simply hold the crossbow in the other, is a good idea. Pretty standard, really... In one game I was playing a Paladin who lost his crossbow due to the fact that he had to drop the weapon, and was subsequently drawn into a portal and was unable to recover it. I remembered this (with some bitterness) and the next time we played a game I had my Mage take a rank in Craft (leatherworking) an asked my DM (the same one) if, with an appropriate check (DC: 15, I think), if he could come up with a “Drop Strap”. Basically it’s a leather strap that’s hooked to some part of the user’s body and the crossbow, and if the weapon has to be dropped it will hang from the user but not be lost. He would then need to actually pick up the weapon, as normal, but wouldn’t loose the crossbow. I made the check (at first level) and BINGO! Now, since most of our games are in the Realms and most of our past characters become potent and known figures in ensuing games, the Drop Strap has become something of a standard in our games. Simple, possibly not realistic, but effective nonetheless…and the crossbow man can feel secure that he won’t loose his weapon. Maybe this helps? :cool:
Tetsubo 01-08-06, 04:31 PM	I think that the OP wanted to be able to keep the crossbow in hand and ready but STILL have a melee weapon, in a pinch. The idea presented above, to draw a dagger or a one-handed melee weapon and simply hold the crossbow in the other, is a good idea. Pretty standard, really... In one game I was playing a Paladin who lost his crossbow due to the fact that he had to drop the weapon, and was subsequently drawn into a portal and was unable to recover it. I remembered this (with some bitterness) and the next time we played a game I had my Mage take a rank in Craft (leatherworking) an asked my DM (the same one) if, with an appropriate check (DC: 15, I think), if he could come up with a “Drop Strap”. Basically it’s a leather strap that’s hooked to some part of the user’s body and the crossbow, and if the weapon has to be dropped it will hang from the user but not be lost. He would then need to actually pick up the weapon, as normal, but wouldn’t loose the crossbow. I made the check (at first level) and BINGO! Now, since most of our games are in the Realms and most of our past characters become potent and known figures in ensuing games, the Drop Strap has become something of a standard in our games. Simple, possibly not realistic, but effective nonetheless…and the crossbow man can feel secure that he won’t loose his weapon. Maybe this helps? :cool: Such a Drop Strap exists in the real world. Special Forces and SWAT use them.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-08-06, 04:36 PM	oh man my friend lost his +3 crossbow cuz he dropped it. it was his main weapon at that time, had to stick to mandolinin' in the back with the wizard after that. guys, you realize there are shields with bayonnets in dnd? how easy is it to simultaneously block and stab someone with a shield? i dont think its impossible at all. the extra weight could severely hinder aiming. i would say -2 would make sense. ive done target shooting with rifles, i know very well that heavier ones are harder to aim. maybe -2 when only holding in one hand.
Rulebook 01-08-06, 04:44 PM	well, without improved shield bash, its quite hard to block and stab at the same time
CaoSlayer 01-08-06, 04:49 PM	ummm, my personal solution to the topic was to add not a bayonete to the x-bow but a pick axe.
Watchman 01-08-06, 04:50 PM	I don't think the weight of a dagger-sized blade is going to affect the aim of a crossbow one way or another. The heavier kind of the buggers usually had most of their mechanical reloading-aid paraphenelia fixed on them almost all the time anyway (to save time, natch), plus given that you actually fire the things from the hip... I have for my part also been wondering about the possibility of hanging a crossbow from a sort of baldric, although I was wondering about mounted use back then. IMHO, and judging by what historical mounted crossbowmen did, that's not workable - the damn thing is simply too damn unwieldily shaped to be slung like that. One of the few advantages early firearms had over crossbows was specifically their slim shape, which made them far more ergonomic to carry and use with small frontage. For example cavalry carbines were commonly suspended on a broad baldric over the shoulder and hanging along the leg when not in use - but AFAIK such a thing was never done and moreover coulnd't really be done with the rather more clunky crossbow.
bondious 01-10-06, 03:40 AM	Such a Drop Strap exists in the real world. Special Forces and SWAT use them. Where do they hook onto the Soldier/Officer's body? The belt or maybe part of the tactical harness they ususally wear? Anyhow, I was aware that straps and things exist, like the loop that you might have at the end of a billyclub and what not. Wasn't sure about the drop strap, though...cool. Here's another thought: armor spikes. If I'm not mistaken, you don't need an open hand/free arm to make an attack with an armor spike. An elbow, a shoulder block, etc, and you could keep a hold on that crossbow. Same thing with unarmed strikes; you don't necessarily need a free hand for that, either.
Morotis 01-10-06, 07:10 AM	Slapping a Bayonet or even a dagger blade would be like putting a bayonet on a pistol, it's impractical. You could house-rule that a large crossbow could be used as an improvised club, (1d4 bludgening/ X2, -4 on attack rolls for being improvised) and a light crossbow deals 1d3, You could say that for some extra gp the crossbow loses the improvised, as its structure has been made to better suit bashing someones head in, like the bows in the Races of the Wild book...
Tetsubo 01-10-06, 07:29 AM	Where do they hook onto the Soldier/Officer's body? The belt or maybe part of the tactical harness they ususally wear? Anyhow, I was aware that straps and things exist, like the loop that you might have at the end of a billyclub and what not. Wasn't sure about the drop strap, though...cool. Here's another thought: armor spikes. If I'm not mistaken, you don't need an open hand/free arm to make an attack with an armor spike. An elbow, a shoulder block, etc, and you could keep a hold on that crossbow. Same thing with unarmed strikes; you don't necessarily need a free hand for that, either. They attach to the tactical harness. I had a chance to see one up close one day. It held an MP5 to the ATF Officers chest. It was odd to see him standing there with his hands in his pockets and his firearm "floating" in front of him. Armour spikes would be a solid option as well for a bayonet replacement.
Finfreeze 01-10-06, 12:59 PM	Well, there's always the Bayonet (fixed) from the MSRD. You could probably count it as a martial weapon and heavy crossbows as "longarms". That could potentially make heavy crossbows a little more worthwhile, since it effectively turns them into double weapons while in melee. It's weaker than a quarterstaff, though, but at least you don't have to drop your weapon to use it.
Rolof 01-10-06, 11:31 PM	I have always loved the idea of crossbow bayonets, whether it be practical or not. As someone stated already, the only thing like this in existance by the rules as far as I know is the bladed crossbow magic item. There are also rules for Elven bows that can be used as quarterstaves I think, not really sure, I may be thinking of a feat. Crossbows in D&D have always been the poor cousins to bows, something I've never really liked. They finally got some respect in the 2nd edition book Combat and Tactics, in the old player's book a crossbow only did a d4 (light) or d4+1 (heavy). The stats then became d6 and d8 or d6 and d10, don't remember. Also the new rules gave them the nifty armor penetration ability, up to a +5 to hit an armored opponent (maxed out by the type armor they were wearing, if they were wearing leather, you could only get a +2 and so on). At least third kept the higher dice, but took away the penetration. In my games, realistic or not, because I like them bayonets on crossbows are possible, and do a d4 but they have to be used two-handed. However, unless the crossbow is master work, there's a chance the string or some other mechanical piece breaks, making it nonfunctional except for stabbing or clubbing with it. (I also like the idea of metal plating the stock so as to be able to 'butt-stroke'.)
pres_man 01-11-06, 01:13 AM	Slapping a Bayonet or even a dagger blade would be like putting a bayonet on a pistol, it's impractical. Though people have done it. For example here is an image of one I found after 30 seconds of searching on the internet. http://www.prices4antiques.com/item_images/medium/08/05/04-01.jpg I would say if someone wants to put a bayonet on a crossbow, it shouldn't be a problem. I would give it the stats 1d3 20/x2, and make it an improvised weapon. What I do in my game for range fighters is allow them to draw a bolt or arrow as a free action at the end of their turn. They can then use this bolt or arrow as an improvised weapon (1d4 20/x2) for AoO. If they hit with it, the bolt or arrow immediately breaks and they may not draw another until their next turn. This way they can still threaten, but not as well as a melee fighter.
The_Owl 01-11-06, 01:29 AM	This seems like a cheap way to try to get around being threatened in melee while still using your crossbow. I would allow it's creation and use on the basis of an exotic weapon proficiency feat being taken (the bayonette itself would only deal dagger damage).
Emeramber 01-11-06, 05:20 AM	Song and Silence had a bayonet for musical instruments, like lutes, which seem as awkward. Truthfully, in any game that allows elvencraft bows, with their "Look, I'm also a club/quarterstaff" feature, I can't see the problem with using a similar cost upgrade (300gp) to have a "Dwarvencraft" crossbow with a built in bayonet. Use the stats of a spear, except that it can't be thrown. Some might not let it be set for a charge either, but I admit that I like the idea of ranks of dwarves bracing their crossbows against oncoming attackers. P.S. While I'd make them Dwarven, they could also be goblinoid or orcish, and first introduced in the hands of the enemy...
bondious 01-11-06, 08:12 PM	but I admit that I like the idea of ranks of dwarves bracing their crossbows against oncoming attackers. Me too! :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: (a little gratuitous, I know) [Disclaimer: everything below is in regards to if this was MY game, and I was the DM...so I don't sound bossy.] Anyhow, if you're gonna give it a spear's damage then I'd suggest only a short/hand spear, the one that does d6 damage. You'd then DEFINATELY have to make it an exotic weapon, though if you did then MAYBE it could be set against a charge. Hell, it could be a pretty cool combo that if you hit with the bayonet you can get a bonus (maybe +2) if you follow up in the same round with a shot from the crossbow...stab and shoot! For a martial weapon, though, I'd just make it a dagger's damage but with only a 20/x2 critical. In any case... :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: :fight!: ... :D
Dashmin Fleetfoot 01-11-06, 10:00 PM	The picture of Diana, the Thief-Acrobat in the Complete Adventures book has one. Here, check it out. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/cx_gallery/86368.jpg
ronyon 01-12-06, 09:25 AM	Here is the official 3.5 solution I found. Races of the Wild has popout fighting blades that can be added to any weapon. Acts like a dagger,gives something like a -2 to all attacks with the weapon, must be enchanted seprately. Fair and legal, I think.
Watchman 01-12-06, 11:05 AM	One big problem with adding a bayonet to the crossbow is that a crossbow isn't actually very long. Seriously. There's a few in the local museum I work in, both of the late-type steel-stave kind (what D&D would call Heavy Crossbows; AFAIK the earlier wood- and horn-stave model weren't any smaller). They're only slightly longer than my arm each (the average standard-issue musket in the collections would reach to my chin, and the bayonets tend to be at least as long as my forearm). Moreover, for use as short spears their ergonomy and balance cannot be anything but abysmal; if nothing else the assorted parts related to the stave, string and so on would be bound to get in the way of whichever hand you used to grasp the upper part of the weapon - plus they're actually pretty thick up there. And let's not even talk about the winches and suchlike military-strenght specimen would have attached to them on the field for reloading... And then there's the fact that within seconds of engaging in hand-to-hand combat the string is virtually quaranteed to have had enough contact with whatever sharp implement the enmy is trying to ruin your day with to snap. Ditto for the stave; the steel staves might actually survive it, although I wouldn't recommend trying to use them for their original purpose afterwards, but the wood and horn-staved kinds are going to be goners. One of the reasons a musket makes such a passable spear-shaft is that it's ultimately just a long metal pipe with nothing cluttering up the far end, and easy to grasp in a spear-like fashion (although before the bayonet was invented it was common to simply grab the thing by the barrel and swing it as a big vlub - musketeers apparently preferred this to their standard-issue sidearm swords, which obviously didn't have the same reach and which most didn't know to use well anyway...). The crossbow... isn't. Not by any measure. If it was, the bayonet would have been invented for it and not its successor. The historical way was to the missile troops to carry whatever backup weapons they wanted for close combat - a buckler and a sword are easy and convenient to carry around on your belt, for example - and to mix close-combat troops into crossbowman formations when necessary. There actually developed several types of specialist heavy infantry whose main job was to act as close defense to the crossbowmen; at Greacy, for example, the ill-fated Geonese formation consisted about one-third of armoured spearmen (pavisiers) who normally carried the large pavises behind which the crossbowmen took cover to reload and formed a defensive shieldwall if necessary, and I've seen references to polearm-carrying shock infantry integrated with crossbowmen in later parts of the Hundred Years' War. I don't care if D&D says blades attached to medieval missile weapons are worthwhile, they're still ungodly stupid and cannot withstand even cursory logic.
Rulebook 01-12-06, 01:54 PM	and pistols are easy to attach bayonets to anyway. they're small, light, and not oddly weighted to begin with.
draconic_swine 01-12-06, 06:43 PM	I don't care if D&D says blades attached to medieval missile weapons are worthwhile, they're still ungodly stupid and cannot withstand even cursory logic. George Cameron Stone's A Glossary of the Construction, Decoartion, and Use of Arms and Armor in All Countries and in All Times (long title, I know) references something called a "yumi yari": Japanese "spearheads to fit on the end of the bow. They had triangular blades about three or four inches long on the end of a socket shaped to fit the bow. Between the socket and head were sloping shoulders for the bowstring to rest on". It has nothing else on the subject (including whether or not they were used in combat), but there does appear to be historical precedent. I'd tentatively stat this as a d6 piercing weapon (maybe d4) that can't be set against a charge, if I were to use this in a campaign. Ditto for the crossbow bayonet.
Watchman 01-12-06, 07:22 PM	Why don't you just strap a pike to your longbow while you're at it ? That's a historical attempt too, from back when they hadn't yet come up with the bayonet but did want to develop a "combined weapon" so less firepower would be sacrificed for cavalry protection... This was a characteristically English approach to the problem; most others tried assorted combinations of carbines and various sizes of pikes (at least one scheme involved a hook, meant to serve as a musket-rest, attached to the pike-shaft). None worked satisficatorily. Ditto, no doubt, for the crazy-ass Japanese spear-bow. AFAIK they, too, ended up just deploying a screen of spearmen to shield the archers and musketeers. A fundamentally stupid and unworkable idea remains a fundamentally stupid and unworkable idea no matter who tries it and how often.
Sae Cael Oanar 01-12-06, 07:50 PM	that's not a pistol with a dagger attached, thats a dagger with a pistol attached.